posted May 19, 2008 02:21 PM         

Actually he has Sun CNJ Mars OPP Saturn.

Sun/Mars and Mars/Asc people can be quite explosive as well. He's in good company in this house, we are all like it.

posted May 19, 2008 02:30 PM         

It comes to this in repeated situations when I feel like there is no exit. I sometimes use it to mislead people and keep my secrets

I don't try controlling these black outs I actually like them. Afterwards I feel better. Like finally speaking out whats on my mind. And I often don't have memory of it

i had a great text on this, just can't find it now :S if i do i will post it here

My father has this aspect as well. Haven't noticed rage blackouts in him though. His mars is an irritating one [in cancer] while mine is in an all warrior Arian one

posted May 19, 2008 02:52 PM         

I'm thinking that that strong sets of rage fits might be connected to narcissism and the unwillingness to accept that some things are just out of ur hands. THe above mentioned husband doesn't sound like that type though . The storming off doesn't agree with this complex

There is an extensive article on happy dragons page. unfortunately ti seems to be unavailable

here's a part that i found by googling:

"Mars Square Saturn

posted May 19, 2008 02:58 PM         

   Saturn-Mars contacts have always had a poor reputation, and among medieval and many modern astrologers, they are an index to cruelty ansd sadism. Hitler's prominent square from Saturn in Leo at the midheaven to Mars in Taurus in the seventh house is forever being offered as an example of the kind of temperament resulting from this configuration. More reasonable analyses have appeared recently which describe the lighter and more positive side of these aspects, and it has been pointed out that Saturn-Mars is often externalised and can indicate cruelty suffered at the hands of others. But in general the contacts are still considered to denote harshness and ruthlessness in the individual on some level, mental as often as physical. If we substitute the word "projection" for the older concept of "externalisation", then cruelty demonstrated by others to the person with Saturn-Mars is still a part of his own psyche; otherwise he would not have attracted it into his life.

   Even the harmonious aspects between these planets have a reputation for a cold and selfish temperament although they are also associated with good organising power and control of the will. As is fitting for the combination of the greater with the lesser malefic, Saturn-Mars is linked with recklessness, a tendency to accidents, violence, and conflict with authority as well as a penchant for attracting enmity and ill-will. There is certainly enough evidence to suggest the Saturn-Mars does express in this rather colourful fashion with many people; however, it does not have to. nor is the only alternative projection so we can blame someone else for the damage. Like any other Saturnian aspect this one is full of fear, and also like any other Saturnian aspect an opportunity is offered to develop more significant values and greater understanding.

   Saturn-Mars aspects are more difficult when they are found in men's charts just as Venus-Saturn contacts are usually more of a problem for women.  This seems to be reasonable if we consider that Mars and Venus are the traditional symbols for male amd female sexuality and that Mars on a woman's chart, being representative of her maleness, is likely to be projected onto a man rather than integrated into her conscious expression. Venus on a man's chart, as a symbol of his femaleness, is also likely to be projected onto the women in his life. Mars for a man, however is a symbol of his sexuality, and he will generally identify with the qualities symbolised by the placement of Mars when he is considering his role as a man, particularlyhis sexual role. the effects of Saturn on Mars, when this indentification is considered, will often be evident in his acceptance of himself as a man and in his confidence in himself as a love, aggressor, conqueror, and leader; it is in these areas that the frustration is felt.

   Although the Sun is the symbol for the great creative principle, Mars is a more personal and physical symbol for that same principle. And although society has effectively distorted the concept of maleness into a flat, two-dimensional, and often farcical advetising tool, nevertheless the quality of maleness as a psychic fact remains valid, whether it exists in a man, a woman, or an inanimate object. When Mars is aspected to Saturn, it is this basic principle of maleness which is usually denied full expression. When this occurs in a man's chart, he often unconsciously feels himself to be somewhat less of a man untill he is able to overcome his sense of inadequacy and learns to understand the deeper meaning of his own masculinity.

   The characteristic cruelty and ruthlessness of Saturn-Mars, when seen from this point of view, becomes understandable as over-compensation. They are still highly unpleasant qualities, but whether or not they are morally reprehensible is not the issue, for the individual who expresses himself in this way is usually compulsive about it and cannot help himself. Intense inner frustration and a feeling of weakness and powerlessness are two of the more difficult side-effects of Saturn-Mars contacts, and it often becomes necessary for the individual to impose his will on others in a forceful way, because he is so afraid that he will be imposed upon and controlled himself. This may be a violent imposition of the will, or it may be a far more subtle and be demonstrated on the plane of the mind through manipulation. It may also be expressed as emotional domination. Saturn-Mars contacts can easily suggest this kind of exaggerated maleness in the worst sense of the word.

   Saturn-Mars aspects appear to concur equally frequently with the opposite extreme of behaviour where the individual is inordinately passive and unwilling to fight for his own rights. This kind of person will usually give in under insistent pressure from other people and is generally taken advantage of because he cannot assert himself. When this expression of Saturn-Mars occurs in a man's behaviour, he is usually governed by his women and is generally a favourite with female relatives because he possesses that amiable charm which cannot say no. He usually carries within him a deep sense of frustration, anger, and injustice, and this may be expressed, finaly, in an inexplicable outbreak of anger or violence - "But I just don't understand it, he seemed like such a Nice man". Or the frustration may fester within him and be turned against himself, producing illness and a tendency toward self-destructiveness of varying kinds.

   There appears to be some connexion with the parents here as with all Saturnian contacts, and the key to many of the Saturn-Mars behaviour lies in the individual's childhood. Early frustration of the will by one or both parents is common, and there is also sometimes brutality shown by the father, who may often symbolise the kind of mindless "Do it because I say so" authority which, later in life, becomes the target for Saturn-Mars hostility. Powerlessness and curtailment of freedom often occur through strict discipline, early responsibility, ridgid religious training, or subtly directed emotional control resulting in guilt. There is also often a stifling or punishment of early sexual curiosity.

   Actual physical maltreatment in childhood sometimes occurs with Saturn-Mars aspects and as often with women as with men. Sexual inhibitions and difficulties later in life are often the price paid for this kind of childhood experience. The concept of the will becomes exaggeratedly important because the individual often feels that he has no will, or that his will is ineffectual, because it has been thwarted so often. He may either continue to allow himself to be controlled from without, or he may fight back with unusual harshness because his self-respect is at stake. Saturn-Mars people frequently hold the attitude that the best defense is offense, and this attitude is generally based on hard experience.  But whether a person with this contact is boastful or timid, he will generally suffer from deep and painful feelings of inadequacy about his will and his capacity to function as a man. He may abuse women or treat them primarily as sexual conquests because this helps him to feel more confident; but he rarely experiences the feeling of inner confidence which stems from the knowledge that he is in control. The Saturn-Mars person rarely feels that he has control over himself or over his life.

   Saturn-Mars contacts usually extract a price in the area of sexual expression, and this seems to apply to both men and women. The sexual act often becomes a symbol for asserting dominance and is consequently devoid of pleasure or companionship in a deeper sense; and there is often frustration as a result. Saturn-Mars aspects when they express in this fashion infer, as do Venus-Saturn contacts, that what we term sex has little to do with the physical body, for the sexual inhibitions which are connected with both these aspects, are emotional in origin and have no real biological basis. These inhibitions are generally due to fear - of rejection, of domination, of failure. Just as Venus-Saturn aspects have some connexion with frigidity, Saturn-Mars aspects have some bearing on impotence. In many ways these aspects are interchangeable and are concurrent with similar patterns; for like the Sun and Moon, Venus and Mars are two sides of the same psychic unity.

   Aspects between Saturn and Mars, particularly the "hard" aspects, tend to be rendered more difficult to work with because of the emphasis on sexual role-playing which has been with us for so many aeons, and which has reached a new height of superficiality through the impotance of glamour in our culture. The collective psyche of man is gradually begining to grow beyond the sharp lines of demarcation which once were valid, but this slow and steady growth has not been evenly paralleled by social custom. The man with a strong Saturn-Mars contact is generally not comfortable with the cool and aggressive role which is demanded of him; because of the Saturnian influence, he is driven inward to explore the deeper levels and meanings of his biological and psychological maleness, so that he can come to a better understanding of the balance which is appropriate for him between the man and woman in his own psyche.

   This kind of introspective direction is not, however, acceptable for a modern man; he is generally considered neurotic if he admits to this sort of search. Denied both outlets for expression of his will and his sense of purpose, it is no wonder that he is likely to display the edginess and explosiveness associated associated with Saturn-Mars contacts. Saturn offers the opportunity for a deeper understanding of the nature of the peronal will and of the nature of power and control. But social convention may prevent a person from seeing this opportunity. He generally cannot accept the superficial costume which has been laid out for him, because he knows its uselessness when put to the test. But he must find new values about his own exuality to replace those which have failed him. Finding it difficult to express himself outward into the world, he needs to turn inward into himself - the woman's world of the inner psyche - to understand that it is not really his failure, but can in the end be his great success, because he no longer will need to dominate others to prove to himself that he is a man.

posted May 19, 2008 03:19 PM         

I have another friend who sustained similar injuries who has suffered from both symptoms.

posted May 19, 2008 03:30 PM         

I'm unaware of my aggression level prior to the incident so I can't neither confirm or deny this.

posted May 19, 2008 11:03 PM         

quote:

---

I don't try controlling these black outs I actually like them. Afterwards I feel better. Like finally speaking out whats on my mind.

---

quote:

---

Although the Sun is the symbol for the great creative principle, Mars is a more personal and physical symbol for that same principle. And although society has effectively distorted the concept of maleness into a flat, two-dimensional, and often farcical advertising tool, nevertheless the quality of maleness as a psychic fact remains valid, whether it exists in a man, a woman, or an inanimate object. When Mars is aspected to Saturn, it is this basic principle of maleness which is usually denied full expression. When this occurs in a man's chart, he often unconsciously feels himself to be somewhat less of a man untill he is able to overcome his sense of inadequacy and learns to understand the deeper meaning of his own masculinity.

---

Interesting topic...

I have Mars in Gemini at 2 degrees square my Saturn in Libra at 3 degrees. I've found that particular part of the description I've highlighted to be pretty accurate. I feel that my masculinity was blunted for the most part of my childhood and youth. I had a very abrasive father figure growing up and I think that had a lot to do with it. Being a child in the presence of one who demanded your submission was very frustrating. My anger arose initially towards that father figure and never really found expression until much later. That anger kept growing, suppressed within my uncanny tendency towards optimism, but it eventually broke free and became an animosity towards my own self. I began to despise myself for being unable to express that masculine energy with the grace that I had desired. I had been stunted by this childhood experience, but I regained some of that ground as an adult. Now that I am responsible for my own shortcomings, I not only began to realize that it was up to me to find and express that aspect of myself, but I also began to act in that regard. It seems to me that when it comes to this aspect (and with energy in general), that it is less about controlling anger and eventually lessening it and more about finding an expression of that anger that is beneficial to the one who feels it and as harmless as possible to anyone perceiving it. Sometimes violence is inevitable and when I get to that point, I go out to the woods or any isolated area and I'll wreak some havoc on a few branches or whatever I can find. I don't kill any plants or anything, but I let that anger out on unimportant "stuff". It's either that or letting it deteriorate my own inner "stuff". I feel tons better afterwards.

The problem is that I've mastered being able to feel intense anger without getting violent towards animate beings. Stopping it there, though, doesn't solve anything. That energy has to be redirected and, possibly even, transmuted. Going out to the woods or wherever and smashing things up doesn't solve anything either, but it has helped me become more aware of that inner dynamic within my own being, so that I can begin to open up my options when it comes to exerting my own will.

Thanks for the opportunity to unload.

posted May 20, 2008 12:04 AM         

It's so important that we learn that each individual uses that energy in different ways. It doesn't make everyone a violent devil. Sharing your experience will help me to counsel clients that I meet who have that aspect.

I wonder if you can tell us how you feel that aspect helps you in a positive way or what skills you have because of it. I know that Mars square Saturn can suggest certain skills such as precise action used in areas like surgery, sculpture, mountain climbing, law enforcement, boxing, all kinds of stone work, design/architecture, metal work, iron work, working with molten materials, construction work, etc.

One of my clients with Mars conjunct Saturn in Scorpio loves to do ice climbing. She travels the world to climb specific areas of ice. Saturn being the ice and the mountain and Mars being the action of conquering the rock. When you can't move the stone, you actively climb around it, etc.

I love to think about Houdini using his Mars-Saturn aspect for the incredibly controlled actions he used in his escape acts. Mars and Saturn - heat and cold, action and control. It doesn't have to be a death sentence.

Thanks in advance if you decide to share your positive experience with that aspect and thanks again for sharing your life time experience with it.

Geocosmic Valentine
Professional Astrologer
geocosmicvalentine@yahoo.com
. www.myspace.com/geocosmicvalentine

posted May 20, 2008 12:25 AM         

I also have this aspect. I can relate highly to some of it.. but not all of it.. Thankfully my strongest aspects to mars are pleasant from Sun and Jupiter. Mars Saturn is the weakest mars aspect for me.. even coming after Mars neptune and Mars Uranus. so its not so detrimental to me.

for all others blessed with Mars-Saturn here is a more pleasant side to the aspect if you learn to control it instead of vice-versa.

Mars square Saturn

Keywords
Channelled will power, self control and superior perseverance – or inhibition by Saturnian limitations. Mars and Saturn are two planets of antagonistic values: Mars by nature is fiery, outgoing, impulsive; Saturn is cautious, introverted, and cool. The encounter between the two contains great promises, but will pose a challenge in integrating the dialectically opposed
qualities.

Characters and soul forces related to the Mars-Saturn combination

Mars-Saturn will power:

If harmonious integration between Mars and Saturn is reached, Mars’ libido-fire is channelled by Saturn. The arrow of Mars knows exactly where it is going. Hence the following qualities: Capacity for concentration. Planned and carefully prepared action. Precision. Organisation. Discipline. Self control. Persistence, determination. Duration in effort. Unwavering. Has earth element (Saturn) to support the Mars. Common sense. Grounding. Solid, serious, responsible, reliable, trustworthy. Good at progressive enterprises that succeed by methodically
overcoming obstacle after obstacle.
Good at building-a master builder. Good judgement (Mars -Saturn is THE combination for judgement). Good at making decisions. Excellent manager/board executive. Often picked for positions of responsibility.
The Mars-Saturn cautious character Thinks so much before acting that he/she ends up doing nothing. Caution becomes inhibition.
Often has lots of good reasons to delay action: think about risks, think about things going wrong, or ‘We've got to do it perfectly right’, or perhaps ethical concerns. Sometimes unable to discern that in reality, these are pretexts the mind uses to justify blocking action. Possibly ascetic tendencies. The Mars flow contained by Saturnian limitations, resulting into a build up of anxiety (Often associated with the Mars-Saturn character.) In terms of energy, the Mars libido and action is not allowed to flow outwards properly, due to Saturnian personality limitations and rigid
structure. The result is a build up of inner pressure with inner tension, suppressed anger, frustration, teeth grinding, fears and anxiety. Guilt (a Mars-Saturn ‘special’). Sometimes, toiling or labouring for self-imposed or unclear reasons. Always better when they exercise physically, work in the garden, or simply get moving. Always better when they have a job than when unemployed. Any action process that gets the Mars moving brings
relief, acting as a pressure cooker valve for the inner tension. The worst situation for this character is to ‘freeze’, that is, undergo a period of total inaction due to rigidification of all blockages.

The Mars-Saturn cold, selfish character:

posted May 20, 2008 01:12 PM         

Welcome to the forum!

posted May 20, 2008 01:23 PM         

I don't know, this aspect coupled with mars in aries is sort of a paradox for me? (if thats even the right word) I mean, on one hand I have a temper, and on the other hand I find myself repressing real anger. Hell, I was even a part of the mars in aries club a while back with 3 or 4 other ladies who aren't around much anymore.

And I was actually dreading T-pluto squaring my mars because of some very foreboding descriptions but now I see how much better it is for me. I blew up on my friend 2 weeks ago before I skipped town and I feel so much better since her behavior was just becoming intolerable and I was reaching a breaking point.

posted May 20, 2008 11:59 PM         

Um, seriously, I have no idea what I'm doing in the "Astrology" forum. I must've gotten lost.

Ladies and gentlemen, I must now adhere to the ever-so-noble responsibility of informing you all that I have made a mistake and that I do not have this aspect. I have Mars trine Saturn. I mistook the Venus symbol for Mars in my chart. I do have Venus square Saturn, but this is totally not even close to the same thing.

I'll show myself the way out of here now.

But before I leave,
I should like to say that I read this thread and I responded because I really resonated to the subject matter and not the aspects. I have had a few issues with anger and moodiness, so I will go on and respond with what I feel in regards to this subject.

posted May 20, 2008 11:59 PM         

I may not have Mars square Saturn, but I do have Mars opposite Uranus. This points to, in part, the connections that I feel in regards to the anger and temper involved in the Mars square Saturn aspect.

I have found that aspect to be incredibly beneficial in regards to several learning lessons. For one, I do not take anger for granted and I have realized that it is not, simply, a stigma that indicates the unevolved. For another, I have realized one of the many importances in being honest with one's self. Having repressed my anger for most of my life, I came to realize that I wasn't "controlling" my devils and, thus, conquering them. I was actually denying my angels or, at least, the honesty of my own being.

I should make it clear that I find there is a grave difference between "controlling" one's actions and "controlling" one's emotions. It seems rather obvious, doesn't it? Yet, I have found myself foolishly making the mistake of lumping these two together, time and time again. The importance in allowing myself to feel my emotions is one that I cannot emphasize enough. It has been much easier for me to pretend they are not really there, or that they are not really what defines me, because it has allowed me to not take ownership for them. When I experience anger, the fact remains that I am feeling it, whether I deal with it or not. Not resorting to violence against another person is laudable if the tendency towards violence is present, but that alone does not validate an assessment of "controlling" one's emotions. By not reacting violently, we are simply refusing to act on an impulse. It was easy for me to make the mistake of defining this ability to deny the impulse towards violent expressions as the climax of a situation. It is not. The "bomb" has not yet been defused. The fuse has only been elongated. This is a good thing, though. It allows me some time for introspection and further reflection. That thinking gives me the opportunity to open myself up to other options in my reactions. The bottom line is that the energy will have to be expressed somehow. Luckily, I just happen to be an artist.

IMO, the idea of "controlling" one's actions is much easier to understand than the idea of "controlling" one's emotions. It seems to me that anger will be experienced whether we like it or not. That much cannot be controlled. By "controlling" our actions, however, we are making an impact on the manner in which we react to it. Violence may not be a "beautiful" thing, but its presence in the world forbids me from denying its presence within my own being. At the very least I acknowledge that, if I were to be confronted in a violent manner, I would not be "evolved" enough to keep myself from countering.