posted June 09, 2008 12:17 PM         

t.Pluto is retrograde and squaring composite Chiron

t.Neptune is retro. at 24 Aquarius .. opposite and applying to composite Moon
squaring composite Neptune as well ..
t.Chiron is retro. at 21 Aquarius .. conjunct compo. Jupiter ..
backing up to re-oppose compo. Moon 'n square compo. Neptune

i reckon best to start off by looking at your individual natal charts ..
could guess via the synastry chart .. but there be no degrees listed ..

three and one half years ? .. maybe take note of any uranus/neptune/pluto transits to your respective charts ..
t.pluto to natal venus in his chart ?? .. given pluto is retro now and re-applying towards squaring his venus ..

posted June 09, 2008 12:32 PM         

Reason I ask is that the first thing stood out to me was that generational Jupiter/Pluto Opposition. It's not great for listening to other people's points of view. Chiron the Wounded Healer is in on the action as he is Conjunct Jupiter.

The Moon in Gemini is holding things up at the top of the chart, making a T-Square, and is thus working hard in the relationship. The Transiting Sun has recently triggered this off.

I'll have a closer look, but if that is the culprit this could be a storm in a teacup.

posted June 09, 2008 08:00 PM         

I know from experience with this aspect that the Saturn person shuts out the Mars person when he/she is feeling vulnerable yet feels - justly or imagined - that the Mars person would be too reactionary or too harsh. The Saturn feels like opening up is inviting an attack. Saturn may feel Mars is insensitive and impatient with his/her problems. Saturn also often feels Mars wants a quicky resolution to a problem, whereas Saturn wants the RIGHT one, and needs time to sort what that is exactly. This is very hard to contend with, if he's already habitually shutting you out.

I don't mean to take sides. He may have been equally to blame for whatever the poor communication and defensive feelings that got him to this point. Mars may have something to teach Saturn - but however, as Linda points out, it's usually the other way around.

posted June 10, 2008 12:17 AM         

This issue is fairly common, unfortunately :-(
What can you do?? Nothing. If he won’t share his feelings/thoughts with you, then he won’t. Please don’t let those “feelings of rejection” take hold – it’s not about you, it’s about him. If you allow yourself to feel hurt because you’ve been shut out, it will sabotage the love you feel for Mr Leo. In a way, it’s all about (the dreaded) Expectations. You expect that, since you’re partners, things should be shared – it’s only fair ;-) But not everyone holds that view….. The danger here is that since he won’t share with you, you might fall into a pattern of not sharing with him (and doing more pioneering and dying peoples’ dogs red :-D ) and your connection and foundation of trust is threatened. And as you pointed out elsewhere, why keep a dog and bark yourself??

I think the most problematic transit for Mr Leo right now could be tPluto applying back to whack his nVenus (exactly at 28Vir30!!) one more time when it stations at 28Sag30 on September 9th – are you able to cultivate patience, not press for admittance into the ManCave and adopt a wait-and-see attitude until then and see how things shake out?? tMercury will be out of his shadow on July 4th, and that could also be an indicator of restored communications….. tUranus is now separating from a square with his nMars – I’ve got the opp going on, and it’s made me a bit forthright, shall we say?? Realizing that, I’ve tried to throttle some of the words that want to tumble out of my mouth without thinking. Perhaps Mr Leo unconsciously realizes that in himself and has clammed up to compensate.

I had a Leo b/f years ago, and he didn’t like talking about his plans until he’d mulled them over a good long while and considered all the pros and cons, then he’d share his thoughts. But *our* M.O. is dragging everyone within earshot along with us for the ride while we swing in one tray of the scales and then t’other, considering all sides of an issue Different methods to arrive at a decision/opinion….. From my POV, it doesn’t bode well that Mr Leo isn’t including you in his emotional landscape. From your frustration level, this must be pervasive….. ?? If you’re bottling up your feelings until they explode spectacularly and then going camping solo, this would seem an erroneous communications technique. If you can, you might attempt expressing those feelings immediately, instead of relegating them to the bottle to percolate until you get volcanic. And this bit about doing more to accommodate him: is it really helping to smooth the daily bumps of relationship, or do you feel overextended and unappreciated?? The coldness you perceive in his attitude is what worries me the most – you want to work things out with him, but is that mutual??

Where are both your Vertexes, luv?? I’d like to take a look at what aspects them – it’s said the Vertex can function as a sort of secondary Ascendant…..

bunnies & GL75 ~

{{{ hugs }}}
Mme Z

posted June 11, 2008 06:40 AM         

You all gave me food for thought. I especially identified with the Saturn/Mars relationship you talked about Mercury. I think that's true. I don't know what it is I am supposed to be learning from this and hope it becomes apparent soon!

quote:

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September 9th – are you able to cultivate patience, not press for admittance into the ManCave and adopt a wait-and-see attitude until then and see how things shake out?? tMercury will be out of his shadow on July 4th, and that could also be an indicator of restored communications…..

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quote:

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If you can, you might attempt expressing those feelings immediately, instead of relegating them to the bottle to percolate until you get volcanic

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Has anybody ever been to Relate, or any other couples counselling? How did you find it?

Here are both our natal charts (with vertexes)which might help answer other specifics about degrees etc(his first)

I've edited the first post to include images of the composite and synastry with vertexes in.

posted June 12, 2008 10:13 PM         

How's things going for you this week??
Just read a lovely astro forecast, and wondered if a few of the observations might prove interesting to you.....

Weekly Weather June 9, 2008
By Anne Ortelee

This week the Sun gets into the picture, lighting up all sorts of situations so we can see them clearly and consciously. Mercury is still retrograde, in Gemini. Mercury is also in some way in charge of every single planet in the sky! The entire heavens are answering to Mercury’s retrograde energy. So that means Mercury (and all the other planets too) are bringing our ghosts back to haunt us, remind us, visit us, and awaken us. The sky will point out our mistakes, our good parts, our growth opportunities and help us review our life choices made so we move forward to our next chapter with awareness. Our ghosts are visiting the important scenes in our lives be it a racetrack or over coffee with an ex-lover at the diner or via a song or found letter that reminds you of them. When your ghost appears, chat them up! Make SURE to have a conversation with your ghosts, even if you are not sure you want to hear what they have to say or if you want to say what they don’t want to hear.

As one of my friends wrote about one of her ghosts, ”Actually, this was the first time I'd seen him since I got back into town … I do know I regret how it all ended (not what I said, oddly enough) telling him he was behaving like a selfish prick and that he should do both his wife and his girlfriend a favor and get out of their lives and maybe he should take some time to grow up along the way. Oh, and that he should call my ex to see how that “greener on the other side of the fence" thing works out. Certainly it wasn't what he wanted to hear.

K came in late last night to talk so I confessed this little episode. That's when I realized that what I was most upset about was how those buttons that I thought long ago disconnected got activated. Ah well. I'm sure I'll hear the explosion eventually.”

And, once you realize what it means that you ran into your ghost, (and when you get a bit of distance from it and calm down), expect that you’ll hear a little explosion of old karma getting blown up, shaken loose, dissolving, acting up or being carried away by Mercury’s continuing retrograde. This week, as the Sun comes to light up a number of the planets in the sky, we will find illumination and perhaps we will have a realization of what that ghost encounter was for. Sunlight is the best disinfectant of ghosts! Or at the very least, it sure lights those ghosts up for us!

The other thing that happens during the week ahead is Venus moves from being an warrior goddess morning star to an evening star that wants to snuggle and relate. Venus will join with the Sun on the 9th. After that, Venus begins to trail the Sun, setting in the west after he does, and softly dancing in the night sky after the Sun disappears. When Venus comes behind the Sun, she is softer, more related and more about connecting, desiring and understanding. We can expect similar shifts to take place in our lives ~ where we may have been a warrior goddess like my friend was to her ghost, we’ll soften and come to appreciate that desire is all part and parcel of the process.

Venus has a passel of aspects so pursue the love, desire and hope energy inside your heart. Stop to listen and care about what your Venus or other people’s Venus’ are saying. While YOU might not want to be part of their Venus experience any more, encourage them to seek out Venus in their own lives now that she’s not a warrior goddess any more. All of us will soften a bit, adjust a bit, settle a bit and maybe even be more in the mood to flirt, connect, chat and relate.

Next, we have VERY big deal aspects with both Mars and Pluto to deal with. Remember these planets are NOT easy at all when they are busy. In their negative versions, they are war, aggression, annihilation and violence. In their positive versions, they are the power of creation and rebirth after the process of alchemical transformation and death combined with the protective yet hard charging energy of moving toward what you want from life. The fact that they are doing big things on the same day, calls our attention to their story.

First, Pluto reenters Sagittarius for a five month sojourn. He is moving out of Capricorn and rolling backwards through the last degrees of Sagittarius on a clean up, revisit and clear out mission. Between now and mid-November when Pluto reenters Capricorn, your job is to clean up the leftover issues in your life that started back in 1995 to now. Focus on your Sagittarius house to see what those issues are. It is your cosmic chance to make it right and get things in order before Pluto goes into Capricorn for a long, long time. You have five months to get your house so to speak in order and figure this out.

Less than 24 hours latter, Mars dives into the South Node of our destiny and starts to stir up our past life or karmic relationships. Mars is helping Pluto do his work ~ they are approaching a fire trine to each other. Mars is going to set off that Finger of God in the sky when he dives into the South Node. Take advantage of Mars stimulating the South Node to use his sharp knife or piercing energy to sever any remaining threads of negative energy remaining that ties you to the situations you want to release. This Mars can be a destructive energy as well so be cautious as it builds up to a peak on Saturday. Redirect it towards creating what you want from your life not arguing about the same old, same old.

Me, I like to invoke Archangel Michael on Mars aspects ~ he is one of the good guys who also happens to be quite handy with a sword and fights for good stuff. I ask him to help me sever the difficult ties in a kind, caring and compassionate way rather than with nastiness. When Mars dives into that South Node, ask Michael for his help and envision Michael swiping his sword in front of you, behind you, and along your sides, severing those etheric, karmic, connecting cords as well as the unseen difficult emotional ties that bind you to the pain and the situation or person. Ask him to leave the good ties in place if it is a relationship you want to continue. If you want the entire thing, situation or person gone, gone, gone from your life, ask him to sever all the ties and release both of you.

So there is much good and some potential bad in the week ahead. Focus your intention on where you want to go with your life. It might take you a while to get there, but if you start moving now, you’ll be surprised how far you get taking even the teeny, tiniest steps.

Last and brand new to me from the astrology conference I attended is the concept of Draconian charts. Draconian charts involve taking the North Node of the Moon and moving it to 0 Aries and then moving all the other planets in a chart by the same amount. The chart looks physically the same but all the signs and house rulers change. The Draconian chart describes your karmic purpose. And, I must say, in the charts I’ve been testing it out on, it certainly seems to work fabulously! So why mention this new bit of knowledge now? Well Pluto is traveling at 0 Capricorn this week ~ square to that Draconian North Node of Destiny in each and every one of our lives. Pluto is also sitting right on the World Axis of the Cardinal signs. We all, each and every one of us, will face a major karmic choice in the week ahead about what we believe to be the most important thing or path for us and our future. Take a deep breath and choose what you want out of love, and not from a place of worry or out of fear.

Also, this means the issue from the very end of January when Pluto first entered Capricorn is up and active, dancing around the room, maybe even shouting at you, and asking you to look at it. So be brave and look! Take action. Own your path. Own your part. Own your contribution. Own your stuff. Your choices and actions only stay unconscious when you choose not to look at them or take responsibility for your own behavior. So choose with wisdom, guided by hope and fueled by love for your best outcome. More importantly, choose bravely for the outcome of your soul‘s path. It is not about what the other guy says or does, it is about YOUR PATH!

Monday, In the middle of the night, Sun joins with Venus and aspects the Node by declination offering us a delightful opportunity to move toward what we would like in our life. Venus moves from being a warrior to a love goddess. The Moon in Virgo makes powerful aspects with both Saturn and Pluto linking our emotions to a readiness to create in the world. All day long, the productivity soars. Create a list upon awakening and power through it. You may find yourself a bit more emotional than you would expect. Part of it is freeing and part of it is because there is next to no water in the heavens so emotions will appear in the most awkward places. All for the good. Chat up all ghosts you encounter!

Tuesday we continue with the Virgo moon as it makes productive aspects all day long until it goes void with a flourish. Partnerships are challenged, pushed or offered the opportunity to go to the next level ~ either up or down ~ with Uranus square to Juno, Vesta trine to Juno as Uranus argues with Vesta. The old traditional way of doing things isn’t cutting it any more. So state what you would like. Venus still tightly joined to Sun, has a bunch of aspects that are about creating what she desires in the world. She and the Sun are both trine to the North node so push for the love, value, connection and being-seen energy that you want today. Forget the old wounds. Recognize wounds are part of the journey through life ~ they are helpful but at the same time they should not prevent you from living your best life. People will be who they are. Who are you? Why are you letting “them”, whoever “them” are, define what you get out of life? If you adjust YOUR side of the equation or the arrangement, they will have no choice but to make an adjustment on their side of the arrangement. Think of it as going to sit on a subway bench. You can see there is room for you to sit down, provided that guy pulls his leg in and she slides over a little bit closer to the pole. There is space there for you! Or you can choose to stand ~ but you won‘t be able to read your book. Or you can leave the subway car and get into another car ~ but you are already in this one and the doors are going to close. Or you can wait for the next subway which hopefully won’t be that crowded but you are already running a bit late. This is the kind of day where you need to summon your inner Rosa Parks and say out loud, for all the world to hear, “I want a seat!” Seventeen people will get up and offer you their seat. Ask. Ask. Ask. Or at least say what you’d like to have going forward! Don’t be bashful. They can’t read your mind.

Wednesday Moon in Libra balances the energy today as Sun moves to make a pile of aspects. Expect illumination. Expect to see things you hadn’t seen or think things you hadn’t thought of before. If you had a disturbing dream in the night, revisit it during day light and see what it is trying to tell you. The heavens are talking to us ~ or trying to any way ~ by sending us all these ghosts, making us run into old memories and folks from our past and reminding us who we are and where we’ve come from and what we’ve been. Those memories will help us know where we want to go next. Our past is made out of our choices from back then. Our future is tied to our choices we make now. Our lovely ghosts are pointing all this out to us with an amazing clarity right now. Ceres changes signs today and enters Cancer and opposes Pluto at the World Axis. They are both square to our Draconian nodes of karma, choice and destiny. Time to choose what we want.

What we nurture, grows. What we feed, grows. What we pay attention to, grows. What we grow can be good, kind and terrific. Or what we grow can be kind of like that plant in Little Shop of Horrors. It keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger! We each have a part of us inside that shouts at us just like that plant did ~ “Feed me! Feed ME!!!! FEEEEED ME!!!” Do you like the voice that is shouting at you to feed it? If not, don’t feed it! It is as simple as that. Well, probably not really quite that easy, but you DO know that you don’t have to feed it! Remember it is YOUR CHOICE, yes your choice, to continue to feed it. You can continue to feed the darn thing so it will continue to grow bigger and bigger and bigger. It will continue to shout at you, louder and louder and louder. OR you can stop feeding it today, simply go about your business and ignore it. Sooner or later, it will stop shouting at you and go away. Venus opposite Juno says we are done, on some level, with partnering with that bad old behavior, that shouting plant, that nasty situation. If the thing shouting at you today is not a plant, remember you don‘t have to talk to it either. You brought it ~ the person, situation, job, event ~ into your life to serve a purpose. If that purpose is served, you can get it OUT of your life. And let me remind you, right NOW is a fabulous time to finish it up and let it go.

Thursday expect exciting dreams as Venus squares Uranus in the middle of the night. Write them down upon awakening (if you remember them). Mull on them. The Universe is pointing out what you can do without. As Sun opposes Juno, look, clearly, at what you are partnering with. We partner with things for various reasons ~ usually because it gets us something we want but on occasion we do it because we think we have to partner with it! Other times, we partnered with it because we needed it. Do we still need it? Today, the universe is going to point out to you that you don’t have to partner with anything you don’t want to hang out with. You can leave. Yes, you can. And, if you feel like a good old door slamming loud shouting kind of exit, think. Please remember you want to take CARE OF YOURSELF! So before you quit without a new job lined up or dump them without an apartment to move into, take stock. Take advantage of the energy of Pluto about to go into Sagittarius to plan your escape. No use cutting off your resources if you don’t need to. On the other hand, you might need a big old door slamming kind of exit to get your butt out the door for good. Remember Ceres and Pluto are squaring the Nodes of Destiny. While you might not leave this very second, something will click off in you today, if it is time for you to go.

Friday we have a very long, void moon full of relationship energy. Again, the night before was busy and full of dreams. Hopefully, these dreams were more about where you are going next rather than the fear-filled kind of dreams. What did you see that helped you understand where you are going? Take some time today to sit quietly with your guides or your hopes. Envision what you’d like your home, hearth and life to look like. Hold it next to your heart. Pluto moves into Sagittarius late today. He’s going to be asking us to make choices and clean up the last lingering issues from 1995 to now. We have until Pluto finishes up with Sagittarius for the next 248 years by early November to get our next act together. So the decisions you made this week have some time to move into form before you. Be aware of the shift from Cardinal, solid Earth back into Mutable, Changeable fire. Folks who don’t study astrology will notice the turbulence as it is difficult. And, the story from last January is back up and dancing in the room again. Acknowledge it. Be kind. It is all part of your path. What ended or shifted in January probably will be permanently changed in the future ~ but for the time being, it will be back in your life.

Saturday, Mars joins with the South Node. This can be quite difficult as it sets off that Finger of God in the sky coming from a place of letting go or loss. Losses can occur. If something leaves your life today, it is for the best. It might not seem that way, but truth be told, it is for the best. You are finished with it. Or Mars joining to the South Node can also bring IN a very karmic, potentially life changing relationship. Watch and see what happens. Sun trines Neptune so wonderful new things can also arrive on this day ~ but they might turn out to be a bit addictive once you get past the initial glow. We have to wait and see what happens once we get to November to see where it is truly going.

Sunday is Father’s Day. We celebrate the men who helped raise us to be human beings. Good or bad, our fathers are described by our Suns and our Saturns ~ two very important points in every chart. I know my Aries Dad with his Leo Moon taught me, his earth and water daughter, many important lessons while I was growing up. Take the time today to think about the lessons you learned, good or bad, from your father and your father figures. Mars sets off the Jupiter point in the Finger of God ~ how did those teachers and their lessons affect the choices you’ve made (or not made) in your life? As Pluto will be in Capricorn for a good long time starting in just a few months, part of our upcoming lessons will be looking at what kind of Capricorn figures we want in our lives. Settle in with your dreams of the future as the Moon aspects that sensitive Finger of God yet again. Forward to the new week!

{{{ hugs }}}
Mme Z

posted June 13, 2008 10:23 PM         

Thanks for editing in your Vertex positions -- I've been reading a book by Donna Henson called "Vertex: The Third Angle." She likes to use the Progressed Vertex in timing "fated events." I didn't see any earth-shattering connections to or from either of your Vertexes. However, I did see something interesting: his pSun is right on his nVenus and so is your pMoon
Fascinating!!

Just for fun, thought I'd copy in a couple blurbs from Steven Forrest from "The Changing Sky" re pSun:

Sun The Teacher ~
The Gift: The ability to alter basic values and priorities, thereby allowing one's actual behavior to reflect developments in his or her evolving inner life.
The Challenge: Are you strong enough to change the very basis of your identity, allowing yourself the freedom to become what you have never been before?
Sun The Trickster ~
The Trap: The pitfall of overcentralizing ego in one's self-image, ignoring the needs of the larger psyche, infringing on the rights of others, and flattering one's self into foolish overextension.
The Lie: You are the center of the universe.

posted June 14, 2008 02:08 AM         

I've been guilty of both of those. I see that your guy and I both have exact Moon-Uranus aspects. (At least his is a sextile. Try dealing with a square. I'd make an awful boyfriend. )

Uranus aspecting the Moon can bring an emotional independence. There's still a desire for emotional closeness and bonding, but there's also a natural drive to be emotionally self-sufficient. Reaching out for help when one feels like a big emotional mess doesn't come naturally.

He has a Leo Sun, I have a Leo Moon, and I can relate to what Zala said about her Leo ex. Your SO sounds like he's the same way. For me (and probably for him), the initial phase of making sense of a situation is a private process. Once I get a better sense of what I think about a situation, I'm more comfortable sharing the situation with someone else. Leo gets flak for being a drama queen sign, but I think it's more about pride and self-expression. Leo needs to know where it stands and then act on that. While he's discovering the solution and therefore his identity in regards to his problems, it would feel very unnatural to brainstorm with someone else.

With your Moon in Gemini, interactive emotional problem-solving probably comes naturally to you and is something you need in order to feel bonded with a partner.

I obviously don't know him and don't know if your relationship is satisfying overall. But I can relate to where he's coming from. I know that for me, when I pull back it has nothing to do with a lack of love for my partner but just the way I'm wired. And in the past, when people close to me have gotten on my case for this, I resented it. To me, loving someone means giving them the room to be who they are. Helping them is providing them with the emotional support they need. I couldn't understand why someone would be angry at me b/c I wasn't letting them give me support in the way that they wanted to give it. If their aim was truly to help me, shouldn't they want to give the support that I need, even if that support is different from what they would want if they were in my shoes?

I've since realized that in a relationship, it's not enough to receive the support we need from our partner but we also have to feel that the support we can give to them is valued. Your Moon in Gemini doesn't just want to be nurtured with communication; it also needs to nurture others in that way. When your SO denies you the chance to do that, it feels like a big chunk of who you are and what you have to give is being rejected.

It's a tough balance though. What to do when there's love between two people, but the way one person wants to give it conflicts with the way the other person wants to receive it? (Please excuse my dirty talk. )

He has his Moon and the ruler of his 7th house (Neptune) in his 2nd house. I think rather than words, he would feel comforted by physical contact. That may open him up more verbally as well.

I think with Moon issues it's hard to discuss them with someone else w/o making the other person feel criticized and therefore become defensive. Our Moon is our most instinctual way of being, so a critique of that feels like someone trying to change the most fundamental part of who you are. It feels like being rejected. Right now, he's not letting you express your Moon in Gemini. He's not letting you be who you really are. But if you demand he change to accommodate your Moon, that change won't allow him to be who he really is. There's likely a middle ground where you can both feel like you're getting what you need, especially since your Moons are in compatible elements.

If the problem is that he distances himself from you when he's having problems (that he takes a break from the relationship), then I think it's a completely fair request for you to ask that you still spend time together during those times. Let him know that you're ok with him not being "on" (he can be a grouch), but you need the constant connection. So he's still giving contact (a compromise on his end since Moon-Uranus wants to be alone), and on your end you can compromise by not expecting him to be verbal when he doesn't want to be. Maybe just watch a movie or connect through some form of recreation. (Cricket? A spot o' tea? Monty Python marathon? Whatever you crazy Brits do. As an American, I like to bond while polishing our rifles.)

posted June 14, 2008 04:07 AM         

Saturn has been aspecting my Moon, Venus, Nodes and Mars, and I've been working on communicating, whether or not I feel like it. I've managed to insult several people, when feeling more aggressive (Mars squaring my Aries planets, at one point, and now Mars being in Leo/Mercury retrograde) - the same trap I always fall into when trying to go against my instinct to just shut up and pull back for a while - so I'm trying to find a happy medium. This pulling back has hurt several of my my own relationships.

I hope things improve between the two of you.

posted June 14, 2008 09:19 AM         

quote:

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This pulling back has hurt several of my my own relationships.

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jane ~

I'd polish my rifle with you anytime Won't you come visit us at the Mystical Campground sometime?? http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000003.html
Your astro insights here are exceptional

posted June 15, 2008 04:39 AM         

Ooh baby! Throw in some Nascar and deep fried Snickers bars, and even my recalcitrant Moon-Uranus square will turn to mush & be all yours.
"Exceptional"? Thanks, but exactly what substances are being smoked at the Mystical Campground?

GemLov -
This is too much! Quick, somebody spank me and call me trash.

No, I'm not college-aged. Just very immature with the sense of humor of a 12 year old boy. I attribute my youthful glow to that.

In college, I majored in English and Philosophy.

posted June 16, 2008 05:18 AM         

I can't say much today but so many thank yous!

We called it a day on Friday. I just don't think we can work it out. We are friends and will stay friends. I moved out and I'm very wobbly but becoming stronger every day.

Jane - you have expressed exactly what I was feeling. You have a seriously powerful gift. I just loved what you said. I've printed it out. I would love to comment on each and every line, but it's all so nailed that all I can say is 'Yes, yes'. The inability to express my Gemini moon, his thought-processes that I understand instinctively but still keep hammering for admittance when I should just leave him alone.

quote:

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If their aim was truly to help me, shouldn't they want to give the support that I need, even if that support is different from what they would want if they were in my shoes?

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You know the end bit, about the Sag connection? The middle ground. It is what I have been thinking about all weekend. It is our strength. I couldn't nail it though, as you have. And I think with the more personal, emotional side of things, something tells me there will always be a problem for us and I can't overcome it in our current situation. But never say never.

But my god, we can talk about other things, always have. I read this quote on the weekend (by a man called Cory, called 'Heraclitus')and it says everything about this Sag connection we have:

"I wept as I remembered how often you and I
Had tired the sun with talking
And sent him down the sky"

Thank you all, you have given me much to think about, truly. I feel I have a little more information about him that I didn't before.

quote:

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As an American, I like to bond while polishing our rifles.

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I bust a gut reading that.