posted November 02, 2008 05:17 PM         

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Actually, that whole argument was silly. Regardless of what color we perceive things, they still exist. We see Mars as red, so the ancients equated it to other things that are red: fire and heated iron. The idea was that we'd have a different idea of Mars if we saw it a different color (green was mentioned). This is silly, because if we saw Mars as green then we'd see everything else that we once saw as red, it would now be green. So fire and heated iron would be green to us now, so there would have been no difference based on perception of colors, as all of these things mysteriously would still reflect the same range of the spectrum of light, regardless of what colors we would perceive it as.

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The word "red" is the English version of a word that was used in particular by Indo-European forebears, equivalent words would be "rosso" in Italian or "rouge" in French. As to what "red" is is scientifically defined (and maybe not universally agreed upon), humans may have a varying version of what "red" is with maybe some "colours" in agreement as to what "red" is through all humans. That is just a rehash of what I have just argued.

As to when words were assigned to describe "colour", I don't know. My logic says it happened sometime soon after humans evolved from the apes and thus the colours had "consistency" across all races.

However, we can call Mars "green" if you want to. It's just now that the word "red" has connotations to it that we all know about, well those that speak English or understand it and keep it "red" because we have some vague agreement as to what it is.

And anyway, all colour is truly white or what we have randomly defined as white on the basis of the arguments above that I have listed.

posted November 02, 2008 06:11 PM         

NOTHING means the same thing to EVERYBODY. my main point.

"astrology existed before we invented it"...saying that life existed before biology is beside the point. the stars were there before we were, yes. but the study of the stars, like bio-logy, is a human invention, having been demoted to the rank of superstition by a large portion (won't say majority cos i don't know) of the world's population, a really good example of relative truth. it means different things to different observer/thinkers, in fact it means something different to me now than it did when i was 19, sei no, like yourself. and the fact that you don't recognize chiron for instance, working in your chart just demonstrates that you are currently unconscious of it, not that it is not happening (as per YOUR argument) so there is no cut and dry reality to the meaning of chiron or its importance....

it is indeed, the "chicken or egg" question, the most fascinating question of all maybe. i am not at all surprised to find you on the opposite side of the philosophical fence, sei no, not least because i have chiron in the 10th in sag where i just love to chew on possibilities, and you (say) have it in cancer in the 4th, where you like to feel the solid ground beneath you (symbolically speaking of course!), something sure to base your ideas on. i used to think the "ologies" were the study of how things ARE, not any more.

posted November 02, 2008 06:17 PM         

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I'm not sure about that.

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I am not saying that it's impossible that Mars would *objectively* have the exact same influence.. but there is no way for someone to prove that it definitely would.
Which is why, as I specifically said - it is exactly like the question about "what came first, the chicken or the egg". I am not convinced either way..

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None of this was to convince you or anyone else that "the name came before the influence". I am not convinced either way *myself*. But there are different perspectives on things, and you seem to completely lack the ability to take up a POV other than your own.

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I can see both sides. I'm happy enough with both sides. At this point, I simply think 23 & katatonics's version and my own are more likely

posted November 02, 2008 08:30 PM         

If i dont ignore these topics i freakout feel like im not in control which would be my saturn in first LOL

Geesssss i must be influenced lol

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Sun.. Cancer

Moon.. Gemini

Mars.. Cancer

Mercury.. Cancer

Venus.. Leo

posted November 03, 2008 03:43 AM         

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one of the questions we were discussing was whether astrology is an absolute reality or a human construct. personally i think by definition it is our creation, not something that is there already

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Before getting to astrology, I think I'll start with "red" since everyone loves that discussion. Red doesn't objectively exist. Certain lightwaves when perceived by the human eye & mind result in the experience we call red. We and the light waves are both necessary for red to exist. Red isn't out there waiting to be discovered, but neither does our mind alone create it. Instead, red comes into existence through our perception of those lightwaves. "Red" is the subject (us) perceiving the object (lightwaves) in the way that it's hardwired to do so.

Similarly, astrology doesn't objectively exist. Just like red isn't "out there" waiting for someone to perceive it, there's no Moon-square-Saturn energy "out there" waiting for someone to perceive it. How could a psychology exist outside the mind perceiving it? Astrology isn't discovered or constructed by us, but is born with us. Astrology is the subject (us) perceiving the object (time and space) in the way that we're hardwired to do so.

When you think about it, astrology is simply time and space. What we need for every birth chart: birth time and birth place. We are the time and place born into human perception. Our study of that perception is what we think of as the workings of astrology: signs, planets, houses, and aspects. That system is just a symbolic language describing the psychology of a certain time. But I'll reiterate that a moment's psychology only exists through a human that has a psychology. It's not objectively out there, but is the way a human experiences its time and space.

posted November 03, 2008 04:08 AM         

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I don't normally admit this in public. Especially where I live, lol.

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posted November 03, 2008 04:34 AM         

for some people, it's also an aternative religion.

my only problem is that so many people feel entitled to redefine it and add to it, before they actually learn it. but that's the problem with the people, not the language per se.

nobody feels right about changing chinese, for instance, when it doesn't make sense. I'm guessing that the faith inplied in the religion part make people feel that their own feelings and beliefs make it right to change what astrology they don't agree with. oh, well. I'm sure they did the same with the other religions during all those centuries. and now we pay the price of not knowing what is what. human nature, I guess.