posted December 20, 2003 02:48 PM           

For the last couple years, the roles of love (particualarly romantic love) and sex in one's life has been on my mind heavily. Behaviour-wise, I have my habits, based on the principles I believe in (or,in some cases, *can* believe in), but mentally I still don't feel like I've found a complete answer. That's why I'm fishing for opinions.

I believe that there is only one inner state that deserves the name "love", that at its core, the love one feels for a close friend, or family member, or significant other is one and the same thing. I like M. Scott Peck's definition, that love is "the will to extend oneself to nurture one's own or another's spiritual gowth." Yes, this is a somewhat un-sentimental definition, and the hopeless romantic in me doesn't like that either, but on the whole it rings true to my inner bell. This love of course may manifest itself in different ways between different people, but still it is love.

I see romantic love as "love-plus". The will to extend oneself is there, but there is also another feeling (chemistry? infatuation? magnetism? not sure what's the best word for it) coexisting right alongside it. Linda explains this as pieces of the same soul (and therefore pieces of the same complete S-elf [Twin S-elf?]) recognizing one another.

Then there is lust. Between two people who are in love, I see no problem with a healthy expression of sexual desire. But perhaps that is not quite the same, perhaps that situation doesn't deserve the name "lust"? Lust by itself, without love, is a negative (if for no other reason than that it is often very selfish) energy. I have never sought out a sexual experience; that doesn't seem natural or right to me. I seek only after love, and prefer to let sex arise as a natural part of that process. (I don't even really "seek after" love, per se. I have always just let that occur naturally also.)

I also believe that when two people have sex, for whatever reason, emotions naturally arise in those people. Those who have "casual sex" and say they feel nothing about it are simply those who have conditioned themselves to ignore and suppress those feelings. (Personally, I do my best to *not* ignore or "stuff down" my feelings, and that is another reason I don't go out to try and just "get laid".)

Well, there, I've said my piece. Anyone have anything to add? Anything to object to or point out? (*Rubs his greedy Libra hands together in anticipation of a possible debate*)

posted December 20, 2003 03:11 PM         

I too have the exact same definition. No fun here.

I too learned the most about love from Peck. Love is an "action" moreso than a "feeling". That's been my philosophy for many years now, and as long as you get out of your own way, it works.

People go about their lives not being able to love another because they think you have to feel something special, or agree with everything.

"Everything I love, I love because I understand..."

.gloria

posted December 20, 2003 08:29 PM         

i agree with you. you are one sweet libran! i wish there were more men like you.

on the other hand, i have to say there does exist ideas contrary to what you have written, and the will to not acknowledge them as "just that" and accept folks as who they are, is a false sense of reality.

everybody has their paths, and sometimes what one experiences is a prelude to other growth opportunities to come.

posted December 22, 2003 03:08 PM         

"the will to not acknowledge them as "just that" and accept folks as who they are, is a false sense of reality."

this is the other side of the issue when you wrote:

"I also believe that when two people have sex, for whatever reason, emotions naturally arise in those people. Those who have "casual sex" and say they feel nothing about it are simply those who have conditioned themselves to ignore and suppress those feelings."

personally, i would not make generalized judgements or analyses about why someone feels the way they do. to imagine that they are ignoring or suppressing feelings would require, on my part, delving deeper into the person and creating a trusted bond for them to share, what if indeed, is hidden.

i wouldn't necessarily say "emotions naturally arise." nobody is the chief authority when it comes to whether or not someone feels something.

posted December 22, 2003 03:54 PM         

I understand what Aprodite is saying.

I've had sport sex before. That's just one example. Just everything in moderation.

with love & support,

.gloria

posted December 22, 2003 09:19 PM         

"Nothing left to lose"

and the result is reaching out.

A rose is a rose by any other name, but some people define love one way, and we have to work to define it for ourselves, each and every individual. So Meercat, I disagree with the basic Libran philosophy usually, because it's not as individual. You want to merge, but the Taurus wants to be independent.

Everyone is different that way, we can only find out what the other's definition of love is (great question by the way to someone you don't know), and then compromise. Throw a rope of understanding, and respect the other's opinion. You dont' have to agree on everything, if you do it looks and seems fake. BUT there has to be a genuine understanding of the other's point.

Libras I have noticed are very interested in non casual sex, and love the relationship. BUT the relationship is work, not a feeling, and its very mundane. Libras get bored fast, try going slower and not making it casual but restrained, or redefine sex between you and your lover. Try being different too, good for Libras to do.

posted December 22, 2003 11:32 PM         

Yup, I agree...

I mean I did say earlier in this thread that I believe love is an action moreso than a feeling. And I also said "Everything I love, I love because I understand."

So it goes without saying, you have to really understand someone you can honestly say you love.

And OK... Libras do have a bit more of an arial view of love, but that's because we have to deal with those ethereal Gemini & Aquarian lovers!! And Libra IS the first sign in the zodiac which is not symbolized by the image of an animal or a person. AND it is the first sign which rules interpersonal relationships.

I almost married a very handsome, smart, wealthy, sweet, lovable Capricorn. He even had a Libra Moon. But even still, I can't be held down that way. It's my blessing and my curse, obviously, since Libra is always in search of the other half.

I don't think love means nothing to lose. I don't even think of freedom that way as Janis Joplin said, but I can understand why she believed that.

I've said in another thread that a composite chart is useful in that it helps the couple see the relationship as a third entity they each must contribute to. So I'm well aware of, and all too willing to, work at it when it's deserved. My Saturn & Jupiter in Capricorn doesn't give me much of a choice there.

But as my scales have teetered trying to reach a balance, I've gone through many spectrums. Sport sex can be done among friends who truly love each other, if that's what your trip is at that time in your life. I'd rather have that for a few nights than committ myself to a marriage without real love.

But ultimately, no matter what anyone says, we ALL want that marriage thing. Even the most free and open-minded people want that. But not everyone is pushing feelings down and avoiding them. Some people just know themselves, and are smart enough to know they are not READY.... or they haven't met the right person yet.

If we could all walk out the door completed and capable of loving and accepting love completely, well then, there would be no spinsters like me left. Some of us have a lot of work to do in this lifetime.

That's why I'm here at this forum... seek and you shall find...

Thanks Natasha... I respect your take very much...

.gloria

posted December 26, 2003 06:06 AM         

But I'm so happy about it! A true can of worms! What Libra (with his Sun and Mercury conjunct in the first house, and Mars in Gemini) doesn't like to sit down to a hearty can o' worms?

You chastise well, Aphrodite. Well, I *felt* chastised, anyway. Did I sound like I was trying to be a "chief authority"? If so I assure you it was not my intention; notice how many of my sentences begin with "I think" or "I believe". No one'll ever sue *this* catt for slander. And personally, I would not make generalized judgements about why someone feels the way they do, either. Now generalized analyses, that's another story. Is not a description of the twelve Sun Signs just that?

For fairness' sake I'll tell you that I understand, and even share, your note of caution concerning taking any individual's feelings for granted. It's a deplorable habit. (Personally, I stay very on-guard against taking ANYTHING for granted.) But of course my statements have not been concerned with the indivual, but rather with humanity in general. (There's that word 'general' again - the root of 'generalized' - as in 'generalized analyses'. Hrmmm...)

I still stand by the premise that sexual union produces feelings (what exactly those feelings are and what purpose they serve, I am unsure of as yet). How else to explain the scenario where two people decide on a little roll in the hay and one (or both) wakes up wanting more than that? And "stuffing" one's feeling is such common practice that it has become a well-known term of psychology, so there is an explanation for the other scenario, where two people have a roll in the hay and both wake up and go on about their merry way, with nary a look back. If anyone can provide a workable explanation for both these scenarios other than the one I've come up with... please do! I would be grateful! You know how we Libras love alternatives.

Ahhh, sthenri... "Veteran of many Libra relationships". I got a chuckle out of that. You poor thing! I understand that among Libras my viewpoint is somewhat unique; every description of Libra I've ever come across is sure to include how much we like to "play the field". So maybe its not the "basic Libran philosophy" that you're disagreeing with after all...

Now, Astro Junkie, you have hit the head on the nail with your phrase that I had never heard before: "sport sex". I'm going to remember that one, and use it, too.

I view sex as a sacred act, something not to be entered into lightly, or for any other purpose than the one for which it is intended, which *i believe* is as an expression of love. I see it as saying "I love you" to your significant other, but with your whole body instead of with only words. I do not see it as a sport or pastime. I don't think that "because it feels good" is a good enough reason. You believe differently and that is your divine right. Like Voltaire, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

To me it feels like: having known sex as an experience of intimate spiritual bonding... how could I settle for it being less? I'm sorry, but to ever engage in it with another person just for the sake of pleasurable physical sensation seems somehow blasphemous to me. Seems like masturbating but with a live human instead of your hand. Now that's just gut-level feeling for me, not a thought-out and decided-upon belief system.

So, stimulating pastime or sacred ritual? That seems to be the first point on which I disagree with most people (in my experience). I'm an old-fashioned hopeless romantic, and I make no apologies for it. "Sport sex." Agh! But please do not think that it is personal to you, Astro. You are broadminded and have excellent taste in reading material, and already I instinctively *like* you. Same goes for you, Aphrodite. Please don't anyone feel that because I disagree on this or that point that I find you disagreeable as a whole person. It takes all of us Knowflakes to blanket Lindaland in its sparkling sheen of winter S-know.

Now one more thing, something I noticed while I was up getting coffee a few minutes ago: where are the men??? Are all you male Knowflakes out there hiding, and letting the other half hog the spotlight? Come on, guys, you can put in your two cents' worth, too, you know. Dafreman? You seem to have plenty to say; I'm very curious what your take is on the roles of love and sex.

Well, this is a post, not a book, so I think I'll "pass the mic" now, to whomever cares to contribute the next verse. lOve and lIght to us all...

posted December 26, 2003 10:29 AM         

i think what you wrote is beautiful, and if they work out with your philosophies and truths; all the more power to you from here to great beyond. i am glad everyone is sharing because somewhere a reader is probably identifying with some points and may be inspired to add their quarter's worth.

in all truth, i am most likely speaking from a capricorn moon perspective. so may be this could put my words into some familiar schema. who knows. what is everyone else's moon sign?

i think a lot of issues on a person's mind influence how they will interact when it comes to love and sex. i have seen more often than i would "ideally" like, when individuals create value systems that are not open to other possibilities, such as when a conflicting circumstance surfaces.

every single person who comes into my life is a unique package of value systems, a whole portfolio of various investments. here are examples of line items: liquid assets, assets frozen for a specified time period, appreciative and depreciated valued assets, options, short-term and long-terms debts, properties, pink sheet stocks, some "ain't gonna happens", accurate and inaccurate forecasts, some accounts payable, etc.

naturally, they "should" all be balanced according to risk tolerance. if one translates them into life examples of human beings or even astrology charts, whole patterns can be extracted and used to predict how a person will value and execute upon a circumstance on almost any given basis.

cold-hearted evaluation? may be yes, and may be no.

i think love and sex work the same way. someone may hold the same exact ideals you have Meercatt, but may decide not to execute on them b/c of a different shuffling of values than yours. nothing wrong or right with what they decide to do, it just happens and people do what they do to try to balance themselves according to their, and may be others, comfort zones.

posted December 26, 2003 11:05 AM         

Here's a little insight on me, the sexual individual, so you understand where I'm coming (pun intended) from.

I waited until I was 18 to have sex ON PURPOSE. I NEVER saw a real penis in real life until I was 18. BUT (and this is where you are going to realize how complex I am), I DID have a subscription to Playgirl when I was 16.

NOT PlayBOY.... PlayGIRL... do they even publish those anymore? Yeah, naked GUYS.

Also, when I was 17 I read a book which I still believe in with every fiber in my body, about sex. The premise was that:

1( Sex is Creative Energy.

2( If you practice celibacy in a deliberate manner, whatever you channel your Creative Energy into will become that much more enhanced.

3( One REALLY GREAT Sexual experience can sustain you for an entire year.

Sometimes I don't come right out and say that Sex is an act of art. Sometimes I'll call it something trivial like "sport sex", less I have the towns people hang me in the middle of the public square again. YES BABY! I'M BACK IN BLACK!!!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

.gloria

posted December 26, 2003 03:42 PM         

Wow, lol. I read your posts and I think that I could have written them up myself.

I share those exact same sentiments, no lies, and I also feel that they are most likely in the minority from what I observe around me in my real life, from online, and from other media as as well, although I do believe that abstinence and such IS making more of a comeback among the very young with the advent of promise rings and the like now.

I have nothing against anyone who decides to do otherwise from me in their own lives either. I make no judgments on any other person, because in the great scheme of things as they are, we need "all paths to fill the colors of the rainbow of life" so to speak.

Ironically, I am considering moving out to LA in the next few years, and I am learning more and more about the more casual line that so many people take about sex out in those parts, lol.

I was watching one of those late night dating shows the other night called "Extreme Dating" and there was a girl from San Francisco having a date with a guy from LA, a bartender who's quotes were as follows:

"The girls in LA are aggressive. They'll come up to me at the bar and just want to go into the bathroom for a little while" or something like that.

It's like, ok, that is just not going to be me doing that when I get there, lol.

Like you, I can't get it out of my mind that sex is too special of a thing to be taken so lightly too.

But, oh well, LA just has me too curious in the end, and I might want to take film courses in my future, so I guess I can't resist going out there to check it all out anyways, lol.

And as you already know from my SN, I am a Pisces Moon, but with an Aqua Sun, and a Taurus Ascendant.

posted December 26, 2003 05:45 PM         

Not all bathroom graffiti is art...

I've practiced celibacy many times in my life, the longest was for SIX STRAIGHT YEARS just couple of years ago. Not so much as kiss on the lips. It was very spiritual, but takes great devotion.

.gloria

posted December 27, 2003 02:06 PM         

That is true but if you have been through both and had to decide, I think it's easier to decide on the committment, because everything happens for a reason. Casual sex happens for no reason at all, and so it annoys some people.

Some have the philosophy that we are part of a great plan and so casual sex does not work with their values and they do not know why. If you were taught and believe that we can wait and all good things happen to us, because we are all connected, then casual sex seems pointless because the partners don't come back, and you are left waiting empty handed.

I have seen that in some cultures, I think it depends on your beliefs and culture growing up. I saw nothing but permanent relationships, which were in my mind, happy and so I set myself up that way to believe what I wanted. For some cultures it's very hard to do casual sex, it's almost self destructive because you eventually turn your back on your sexual partner due to guilt. I have seen most casual sex partners go anyway, so what happened to let's be friends?

Friend is another word I have trouble with sometimes, that and Love. Friendship between romantic partners is really a compromise and about empathy. It can be tough to "use" someone and have empathy at the same moment. I try to open my mind to the fact that there is always a friendship underneath, and tune into empathy. I feel better doing, or protecting, or empathizing with my loved, one even without reciprocation. I need to feel I can receive and give with empathy or else I am not emotionally nourished.

I think most men feel this way because they are undernourished, but they do not need this from me, that keeps me honest. Otherwise I would go around loving everyone and wasting my energy. Now I spend time with family, and real friends first, and see romance as energy, I spend it wisely.

I have to say I think Libras are a little too sexual for me in relationships, usually the sex is used like currency to keep me controlled or for security. I have always left relationships over too much of it, I think too much of it is a bad thing, but that' s because it's the same every time.

I think Lioneye had this discussion once about the same thing, over and over and getting stuck in it, and feeling guilty over changing anything. Part of this is my failure to communicate, the Neptune in the 12th wants mystery and illusion.

posted December 27, 2003 02:15 PM         

"The Discourager or Hesitancy"
In the story, five men come across a wild barbarian land with the most beautiful women they've ever seen. The King invites the five to dinner and there is one Prince among the five. The Prince is amazed at the beauty among the King's court and after dinner the King wraps the Prince's face in scarves so he can see nothing. Then he feels a little hand in his and the King asks the Prince if he would take this woman to be his bride not seeing her. The Prince feels brave because the hand is so charming and he is enchanted by her perfume so he says Yes boldly. The King asks the bride is she will take the Prince and she says yes in a beautiful voice.

After the Prince's scarves are removed he is amazed to find his bride is gone. The King brings him to a room and tells him to pick his Bride. He says hurry up you have ten minutes to choose your bride, surely you can choose her among the rest? In the room were 40 beautiful women. The King tells him he will be executed if he leaves with the wrong woman, and so the Prince walks up and down looking at the women and one smiles and one frowns. He asks himself if his Bride would smile or frown?

Finally a man enters and he is announced as the "Discourager of Hesitancy" and he announces in the Prince's ear. "It's Time!". The Prince takes her hand and there is rejoicing and they leave. How did he know she was his bride? And which one was she, the one who frowned because she was frightened he would choose someone else? Or the one who smiled to encourage him?

That's the end of the story,
Which woman was his bride? He had to understand her to love her, but how did he know?
And would you prefer to be the bride or prince?

posted December 27, 2003 04:45 PM         

The book about sex? And what do you mean the "3rd book" and sex being a *need*. The book about sex and it being creative energy was one of those smaller square inch books you see sometimes, and it was called Sex. I've moved around so much that at times, some of my things would get left behind and unfortunately, that was one of them.

Recently I tried to find it on Amazon, but had no luck. It was written by one of those yogi types. Now you make me want to find it again. It's amazing.

Sthenri:

I'm totally drinking in everything. Ultimately you are absolutely 100% correct. But even during the times when I was committed to practice celibacy, "the one" could have entered my life at those times, and he hasn't. It's a bit of a mystery.

I very much enjoyed that fable!!! Very very cool. I will print it and stick it to the fridge. Thanks so much for that awesome gift. You've seen me post about my circumstances in other posts since I started here, and you know I'm struggling with a few things, so I appreciate not only your candor, but the quality.

One of the reasons I came here was to discover more about the dynamics at work here. I've learned so much. One of the things I discovered for the first time was how very specific Virgo and Scorpio influences in my chart have contributed to "stuff".

.gloria

posted December 28, 2003 09:29 PM         

Thanks so much for your post!

Lol, oh my gosh, do I know JUST what you mean about what you say here too.

I also wonder if I am out of sync with what I should be feeling as well, and I do wonder if I will have regrets about not having more variety in my experiences after all is said and done.

But, I can't get it out of my mind that I want to keep sex for someone special, someone that I want to be with for the rest of my life if I can help it.

At least that's where I stand on it right now anyway.

But I have a similiar problem to your dilemma as well, which is that I am very afraid of commitment in a way too.

My parent's marriage was a disaster, and I am deathly fearful about repeating it myself.

I have deep, serious issues with trust that I constantly struggle with because of the way that it was between them.

To me, living in such a situation as they existed in would just be a nightmare.

You see, my father was a constant philanderer, someone who broke the marriage vow right from the very first six months of his so called committed marriage straight to his very last night on Earth, when he was killed in a car accident while he took his girlfriend home.

This was all before I was born, so I never even got to know him at all.

But somehow, even though I wasn't physically a part of it all, I swear that a lot of these issues I have about trust come straight from that situation anyway.

I think that would sound ridiculous if I posted that in any other place except LindaLand and the like, lol, but since this is a very open place where psychic knowledge etc... is concerned, I hope it doesn't sound too ridiculous to you or anyone else here though, lol.

I really, truly believe in pre-birth knowledge etc..., as well as past lives and traumas left over from the time that we lived them etc..., and I think that between whatever my past lives have been and whatever psychic stuff I picked up on about my family before I was born, and when I was trying to get conceived, and when I lived through all the trauma of losing my father and grieving with my mother over it all before I was even born this time around... left some incredibly deep scars on me.

What makes it all even more distressing to me is that whenever I try to look up celibacy and such on the Internet to read about other people's accounts of it etc... ALL I get are all of these Christian etc... places, which frustrates me a lot because I happen to not be a practicing Christian, and so obviously that spiritual bent is definitely not where this is coming from for me at all.

It's like, I am figuring out that it's almost impossible to be celibate for the long term and not have your choice be a part of a Christian spiritual practice, according to most people out there, I suppose.

I'll just have to keep looking the subject up though, I guess, lol.

posted December 28, 2003 10:37 PM         

Thank you so much for taking the chance and sharing those feelings of intuitive knowledge you have of your life. It's fantastic that you are so tuned into it, that's rare to find. I believe in all that too, and more. I enjoyed reading about it.

I've seen nothing but what I would consider either disasterous to very uncomfortable marriages around me. I'm 42 and never married. If I break up with someone after a few months, it takes me a while to get my balance. I cannot imagine being married with kids and dividing everything in half. Oh Lord!

The other thing is I've always had a rule in my life to NEVER get involved with a married man, and I never will. I have too much respect for the marriage vows.

As for celibacy, I KNOW EXACTLY what you mean about finding other forums. If you read my prior post here about my experience with it. I've practiced celibacy many times in my life for spiritual reasons, the last time up to just a couple of years ago for SIX STRAIGHT YEARS, not so much as a kiss.

During that time I was curious as to forums about it and I ran into the same thing, the Christian thing, when I'm more spiritual, and my decision to be celibate comes more from inside my heart than anything.

You would probably have better luck going to an alternative bookstore of some kind. Go your own pace type thing.

I've been celibate for 6 straight months now, so if ya wanna chat with me about it, it's cool with me.

.gloria

posted December 28, 2003 10:42 PM         

Try seeing two different boyfriends at the same time and let each know you are seeing a really nice, man who cares for you. Whoever cares about you will want you to be happy regardless and not try to push himself on you as the "better choice". He will keep his distance. Plus any man who pushes intimacy of any kind, even touching within the first 3 months is not a friend. If you use these rules I think you can find men that are respectful, it's just about removing the weeds from your flower garden.

That works, if you have a choice of men, if you feel stressed out about it.

I find my biggest challenge is choices of men where I live, the same complaint I hear all the time, but then again it IS winter.

Another great idea is working out with men, this works great at getting one to work off his aggressions so he doesn't get overly sensitive to the fact that's he's not "making a move". You want to stay friends. Skiing, jogging anything like that is really a healthy activity for men and women.

posted December 30, 2003 07:44 PM         

I don't think you (or I, or anyone else with similar views) are "missing out on" anything.

posted December 31, 2003 12:15 AM         

PlayfulPonderingFishMoon thanks for sharing such personal stuff...I too wonder/worry about my fear of committment. I have always had a fear that a boyfriend will cheat on me...I'm not too sure where that fear comes from, I think I've just heard so many stories...it sounds so common and I can't imagine how traumatic that would be! So, in some ways I think I usually just figure, why have a real boyfriend...if you're just dating all the time you won't be vulnerable...that's not a real solution though, I know.

I once had a guy tell me flat out that he felt I had a committment problem...but I don't think it's ever as straightforward as that: I think my Aries need for challenge gets me into difficult situations again and again...if a guy shows too much interest I feel no spark because there's no challenge(and hence am bored and want to move on), if a guy keeps it a bit unclear I am hopelessly intrigued, then I WANT him...BAD. Pretty messed up huh? It's in those less clear situations that I DO want a committment, almost because there's no fear of smothering...but then comes the insecurity and fear of cheating etc etc because the whole thing's a little uncertain.

Though it seems hopeless at times, I think that if fear of cheating is the main fear that needs to be allayed for you you will be able to find someone who will leave you with no doubts about his/her committment...let's just hope you don't have this fear of being smothered to confuse things so royally like me !

Best of luck...you'll find your way.

AriesTwinkle