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Author Topic:   Saturn and Neptune in karmic relationships
sue g
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posted March 23, 2005 02:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everyone, Pixie was very helpful in explaining a conjunction of Neptune and Saturn between a "friend" and my own chart - made total sense. After sort of digesting the enormity of this I now discover that my husband and I have a Saturn and Neptune Opposition (his Saturn in Taurus 8 deg 2nd hs, my Neptune in Scorp 4 deg 8th house). My intuition tells me that this is far more challenging than the conjunction, am I right? Why is it two of the people I most love in my life and who challenge me the most have similar aspects to my chart (as if I need to ask)? I am extremely pushed with both these relationships at the moment and wonder if anyone out there has any advice? Sorry Pixie I dare not ask you again specifically, but if you wanted to comment, Id be delighted (but dont feel obliged). Thanks guys xxxx

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pixelpixie
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posted March 23, 2005 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
That is a good Saturn synastry article.. just for the feel and scope, as well as an example.
Generally, it is the personal planets, less the outer planets that produce these troubling long term projections.. yet it is the undercurrents felt....Because of what Saturn represents, compared to how Neptune is.. they are literally opposite.. and so this would be felt, in the house they are in, between charts.
That s why I included it in the fast synopsis I did for you and your friend....
as you are the older, he is the younger, behaving questionably.. you guide him etc... very much a Saturnine thing, to his Neptune illusions...

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pixelpixie
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posted March 23, 2005 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a thought before I drag my weary ass to work.... are you undergoing any transits that would account for what you are connecting in the here and now? Or sometime between you in the past?
Maybe compare your chart to the transits.. and do the same for both of theirs, separately.....
IN any case, luck and love to the Scorpio-est Scorpio in all the land.. ( and unlike some think, that is a supreme compliment... .)

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GemStar
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posted March 23, 2005 07:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Sue-where is the link for the Saturn-Neptune conjunction in synastry that pixelpixie wrote?

Thanks!
GemStar

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted March 23, 2005 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
interesting topic, sue, and thanx for the link, pix.

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GemStar
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posted March 23, 2005 09:25 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Sue...I found the thread but I thought it was something different! Never-mind..sorry!

In the meantime, I found this article you may like to read!
http://www.throughnightsfire.com/SaturnNeptuneconnections.html

GemStar

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pixelpixie
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posted March 24, 2005 01:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OOOOOOOoohhh.. good, thanks Gemstar!!!

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sunshine9
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posted March 24, 2005 01:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunshine9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OMG, that was some article, GemStar! It struck a chord & I found it deeply moving. It expressed my pain very aptly. My love and I, who current circumstances are keeping apart, have both a Saturn-Neptune sextile, and a Moon/Saturn-Neptune square, and these planets are in the 1st, 8th and 12th houses, as the article says. I can see how we might have mishandled difficult situations in the past, since it's causing us untold heartache now by keeping us from each other. When I had the chance to be with him, I foolishly pushed him away (like the article says). We also have those elements of longing for each other no matter where we are. I wonder if there's anything in the chart that might clue one as to how to do it right this time around - learn our life's lessons, so to speak. Anyone know?

Sue, you have two dramatic connections there, with the opposition & conjunction! Do those relationships feel that way? Silly question - what I meant is, do you feel it's possible that you lost each other in the past, and have come together to continue that relationship? *shivers up spine*

Sunshine

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sue g
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posted March 24, 2005 10:02 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To the lovely Pixie, thanks once again and for the lovely compliment about my Scorpioness, yes its a compliment alright!! Only another one would understand that xx

To Sunshine, yeah these connections are pushing me right to the edge and I shall never seek to find another with such profoundity......shiver down spine, yes........pain in the arse definately. I am in shock, as I only found out this week of the opposition between husband and me, we have been going thro a hell of a time the last few weeks and this really explains a lot, it is almost like you cant live with em, you cant live without em..............what is a sensitive Scorpio girl to do? x x

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Azalaksh
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posted March 24, 2005 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Azalaksh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sue g ~
I wanted to quote you something from Liz Greene's "Saturn (A New Look At An Old Devil)" about Saturn-Neptune contacts:

quote:
In mythology, Neptune was given dominion over the waters and the subterranean passageways of the earth when the rulership of heaven and earth was taken from Saturn and divided up among his three sons. Pluto was of course given the underworld, and Jupiter the heavens; and the surface of the earth itself was given to the man who was, as it were, caught between the hammer and the anvil in much the same way as he is now caught between the pressures of the unconscious which tear him in different directions . The ocean is a fitting sumbol for that aspect of the collective unconscious which does not differentiate but which relates to all things as a whole. It is this aspect that causes the unconscious to appear inimical to the intellect of man which by its very nature differentiates and assigns separate meanings to things.

The mythological Neptune could be quite inimical and was capable of arbitrarily overwhelming ships and their passengers as well as precipitating earthquakes, floods and tidal waves. We may occasionally glimpse some of the impotent horror of the ancient mind as it attempted to understand such a capricious deity in considering the same impotent horror which one feels at being overwhelmed by the forces of the collective unconscious. Our term for this is insanity; the ancients considered it possession by the god who shared much in common with Dionysus and the other fertility deities in that he had some connexion with irrational states. We are used to viewing Neptune as a kindly influence astrologically, the “higher octave” of Venus, symbol of unversal compassion and love elevated above the level of personal relationships. He is certainly related to the urge for union with that which is greater, not through the symbol of the sacred marriage rite but rather though death by drowning – the dissolution of the separate identity. If we were able to express the Neptunian energy in uncontaminated form, he would undoubtedly reveal himself as the vehicle of final transfiguration, the experience of the unity of life. Unfortunately there are very few men who can consciously express this urge, and because it is a collective one, it can only be glimpsed if the shadows have been absorbed and made part of his conscious expressions. The archetype of Neptunian ecstasy is paralleled in the declarations of mystics thoughout the ages, but the man who has not dealt with his shadow (Saturn) is in the position of becoming hopelessly inflated with his own sense of mission and messianic purpose.

Although he is not harmless, Neptune is not a malefic influence by nature. It is only in the misunderstanding of his energies that he becomes dangerous, and unfortunately the majority of people are simply not in a position to understand him any better because the path of devotion has been riddled since the dawn of Christianity with the moral fanaticism and the spirit of bloody martyrdom. None of these qualities are Neptunian in nature; they are Martial. But we have saddled them together, and some good clean Mercurial analysis – always avoided by the Neptunian person – is the only thing that will help us.

Neptune’s second method of pursuing his ends, after that of complete submergence, is that of impotence. By his apparent passivity, he leads to that point where neither reason nor passion are of any use because the individual has attracted circumstances to himself which provide him with the vehicle to acquiesce to greater and wiser forces. These greater and wiser forces wear the guise of a not very great or wise parent, lover, friend, or business partner; but it is the experience of acquiescence which is important and not the means by which it occurs.

Neptune, like Uranus, can overwhelm Saturn because his energies belong to a level which Saturn cannot understand. Consequently any contact between these planets within a relationship usually has the greatest effect on the person whose Saturn is involved. With infinite patience and gentleness Neptune can accept Saturns attempts to bind him for Saturn, made uncomfortable by the apparent inclusiveness and capacity of indiscriminate empathy which is characteristic of Neptune, will often try to make this into a very exclusive and discriminating empathy for him alone. We can see the same kind of mechanism at work here that is suggested by a Uranus-Saturn contact. Even if the individual is not expressing Neptune in a particularly conscious way – and few do except through the creative media of music or theatre – this fluid and magical quality will be apparent to the person whose Saturn is affected. It is an entrancing quality at the same time that it is a terrible threat for although Neptune seems to say, I completely understand and love and accept you, he will say the same to everyone indiscriminately. It is this apparent faithlessness or deceptiveness which disturbs the Saturnian; but it is not deception at all. It is simply an error in interpretation on the part of Saturn who because the dissolving of barriers is unfamiliar to him, feels he has been betrayed.

It is a characteristic of Neptunian contacts in general in synastry for there to be an element of elusiveness and a sense of deception or betrayal in the relationship, and it is usually the Neptunmian who helps stimulate those feelings of betrayal in the partner because he will respond as an actor to the manner born. He cannot say no because he is forever seeking a cross on which to crucify himself, and at that moment it seems that all his emotional energies are for the sole private consumption of his partner; but he is just as genuine in his feeling toward others at the same time that they, too, imagine they are being exclusively granted the Neptunian magic. Only those who respond to Neptune can understand how painfully and apparently unjustified it is for them to be accused of betrayal when this was the last thing they had meant to do. They can never understand why so much trouble has been caused for they are always gentle and kind. It is a very common and very ancient story. Saturn is the most liable to be hurt of all for he is the most vulnerable and the least able to share what is precious to him.

The result of all this subtlety is the unpleasant feeling of disillusionment which is justifiably associated with Neptune. It is particularly bitter for Saturn because he is a rigid and inflexible planet in terms of his effects for the majority of people. This is due to the rigidity and inflexibility of the conscious attitude which has forced certain attitudes and feelings to be repressed and to form the “shadow” in the first place. Saturn’s direction in the unconscious man is toward self-protection, and he sees in the unreliability of Neptune a reflection of the ultimate futility and illusion of his efforts. This is an uncomfortable feeling, and consequently he attempts to possess the Neptunian personality – something like grabbing a fistful of water.

Neptune can inflict very deep hurt on a person who has not come to terms with his Saturn for the man will then be extremely vulnerable on his dark side. Although the Neptunian type is frequently considered amoral or immoral because his behavior is so fluid, his wisdom is that of the unconscious which does not set up moral values and which tends to show up all consciously reasoned values as relative rather than absolute. To this kind of person, all things have their place. To Saturn, this is the destruction of all order for he is trying to struggle with the building of an ego and does not dare to let go of his black and white evaluations for fear the new and rather shaky structure will collapse. He is right in this for the structure can collapse under the weight of Neptune, who sees all colours and knows that choice in the end is meaningless; however, in the end Saturn must go back and rebuild his structure, allowing for the inclusion of a new element – compassion. Neptune in turn may learn that his intent of harmlessness often creates the most harm for impotence can be the cruellest of weapons, and it is sometimes better to say no at the beginning and inflict a clean wound.

Neptune-Saturn contacts tend to produce this kind of pattern even if there is very little fluidity in the life the the person whose Neptune is involved; for because of the contact, the Saturnian will see what is expressed only unconsciously and will react accordingly although often unknowingly. It is an important although subtle combination. If Uranus-Saturn aspects communicate the fact that one cannot control another’s will, the Neptune-Saturn aspects communicate the fact that one cannot own another’s feelings. These are hard lessons to learn, but it may be assumed that if two people remain together and attempt to work these contacts out on a constructive level, the act of willingness provides or guarantees the possibility of a solution.


She can be pretty heavy, deep reading, but I have found that what she writes can be very thought-provoking....

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sue g
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posted March 25, 2005 05:26 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sunshine, apologies for not answering your question. I do feel with the friend (the conjunction one) that we have met and lost each other. With the other (the opposition) as this is my husband and we have been living together for 16 years, I would have to be in a position where we were forced apart before I could get that feeling. Ive just thought, even when he goes out sometimes, I get a scary feeling, but say if he was to leave me then I am sure the same feelings as with the conjunct would arise, Does that answer the question for you?? x

To Az, many thanks for taking the time to put up the info on Nept/Sat, Ive yet to read it in depth, but just looking over it get the overall feeling - oh dear, I have chosen heavy Karma havent I? Its interesting that with my husband, he is the Saturn (and he is younger in this life) and with the friend I am the Saturn (he also is younger) - fascinating stuff hey. Thanks again for your kindness x

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CapGirl
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posted July 17, 2006 01:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found and bumped this thread because it's an interesting aspect rarely discussed due to 2 outer planets involved. I found that the post quoted from Greene is very accurate to describe the struggle I've experienced. I'm the saturn which is square his neptune. I've tried to bind and structure, and he's floating around trying to be free and love everybody! LOL

Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

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fayte.m
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posted July 17, 2006 03:24 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CapGirl
Thanks for bumping this up.
I somehow missed seeing it.

------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~Enigma
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.~Enigma
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.~NEXUS
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.~Enigma
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-

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dyedye08
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From: South Orange, NJ, USA
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posted April 15, 2013 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dyedye08     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@ pixel pixie I would love for you to take a look at a synastry chart between me and this guy. We definitely have a karmic connection, but I would like more elorabation on the Saturn - Neptune aspect in our chart

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dyedye08
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posted April 15, 2013 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dyedye08     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@ I'm a amateur at most. I was wondering if someone could take a look at my synastry chart in Personal Readings topic "I believe I found my Twin Flame" I really would appreciate this. I even had a psychic tell me that we share a soulmate connection. I really appreciate this, thanks!

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tgem
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posted April 26, 2013 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tgem     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a saturn/neptune trine DW with my soulmate...at 3 deg and a wide 8 deg. Our composite has neptune trine saturn at 2 degrees. So much of the feelings of longing are there. We met at a time when we were not able to pursue a relationship. I've been told we have past karma together and I'm looking for anything in our current synastry that might show we can do it "right" this time around as well. I did at one time have the opportunity to pursue the relationship, but I was the runner- freaked out completely! His moon also trines my saturn and conjuncts my neptune!

http://m1298.photobucket.com/albumview/album s/tgem1/astro_61gw_01_02_tau_cusp_he54503234521_zps348cd5e1-1_zpsd04ba203.jpg.html?o=5

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tgem
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posted April 29, 2013 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tgem     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gently bumping

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