posted May 11, 2006 06:38 PM         

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Wives precipitate two-thirds to three-quarters of all divorces and separations. They are more likely to express discontent-- the female raises 80% of all household arguments. Women are also more likely to criticize their spouses. http://www.menweb.org/haltzman1.htm

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I grant you that it's by a male marriage counselor, but I personally feel that there's something to that.

It's been on my mind lately partly due to MNF's post, partly because of my own experience, and partly because my best friend's marriage is currently being tested by this.

Anyway, to get to my point. I think women should consider the ramifications of bringing up these criticisms before they do so. I also think that women should consider deeply how they present themselves in these situations.

The reason I say that is because when you get critical with your man, you often set him up to close himself off from you. No one enjoys being under the microscope, and often a person who feels judged by another will close him/herself off from that person. So now instead of fixing your relationship you've driven another wedge in to hinder progress on your relationship. That's counterproductive. You don't want your man down and sulky or depressed. You want to encourage him to be honest with himself and with you.

posted May 12, 2006 01:17 AM         

A long time ago, I had a friend who visited me and my boyfriend at the time... I hadn't seen her in a while, and I was interacting with my man... something she said to me really stuck out in my head, to this day!!!
She said "Why are you so nice to him?"
I didn't really think it needed an answer, it struck me as a weird question, so I said.. "Um, because I love and respect him."

posted May 12, 2006 02:50 PM         

Pixie - I agree completely.

People have lost the value of love and respect for their mate. I have watched women antagonize their men, brow beat them when they want to go out for a few beers with their friends and pull the non-stop nagging when the male gets home.

I would ask my married female friends what they derived from that and there was never an answer. It was as though getting that marriage certificate gave them license to treat their husbands like dirt. In return, the men start coming home later, won't talk when they are home etc....

On other hand, I have several friends at the organization that I belong to that have been married for years and years. They act like newly weds even though they have been together for 30 years or more. BUT, they have learned the art of respect, trust and giving someone a freedom.

In my own relationships I was always big about space. Just let me know what you'd like to do or not do and we'll go from there. I have a life as well and don't need someone nagging me. I like to deal with conflict as soon as possible, but I have to know that just because I bring up some large issue that we can deal with it without the 3 days of being ignored.

I am not talking about little stupid things like "Oh, why didn't you call me 5 times today pookie?" or "Why don't you put the dishes in the dishwasher". Actually, when I bring something up it is usually pretty big like "Hon, I realize that you have a job as well, but we really need to talk about the empty cans of Ravoli's on the table, the trash in the corner and the fact that you left the kitchen a mess for me to clean... everyday this week". LOL..

It really has to be about mutual respect and love

posted May 12, 2006 05:06 PM         

Women are getting more and more mean with each passing decade. What will become of marriage in the future?

I know of one couple, the wife is a serious pity party Pisces, the husband a hardworking, very successful construction contractor Capricorn - That woman never says a kind word to him. She even disses him constantly to their kids. She whines to everybody about how awful he is to her, and I always say "leave him, if you're so unhappy" (and if it will make you shut the hell up already - which is doubtful) -

Well, she kicks him out of the house about once every 2 years, so he gets his own place, has a few cheap flings, and then she wants him back after a few months. I don't know why he goes. I guess he loves his family, his 3 kids & his beautiful house. I can't see how he could possibly love her though. It doesn't seem like she loves him, that's for sure. Doesn't even seem like she LIKES him.

posted May 12, 2006 05:33 PM         

So if something is bugging someone in a relationship, woman or man ~ who cares if they say it. You learn more about them if you listen. You assess whether or not you can work with that challenge and go from there. You can tell a lot about a person by how they have handled crises in their past. Problem is people don't want to listen to people. They like to listen to TV, eat junk and grow fat and lazy. Creatures of doughnut habits.

posted May 12, 2006 05:46 PM         

Just kidding...

I do believe that when we find the right person we can have an open dialog. Maybe that is what it's about. If you can't talk or you find there is no way to communicate between the two parties- what else is there? I would whither and die in a relationship if I couldn't discuss our lives and our future. It is a part of the bonding process for me (along with a healthy dose of sex and laughter).

People take for granted the love they have for one another. How many times do we hear "You used to send me cards, you used to bring me flowers" Or the man says "I loved how you used to look at me like I could solve all the problems or how you would take interest in my work".

Maybe if people put MORE effort into the relationship instead of saying "well, I'm married no need to keep myself up or make small talk" then things would actually start moving in a more positive direction.

For me, I make it a point never to let myself "go" physically in a relationship just because I am committed. I never want my mate to feel he rates less than what others would if I was single. When I have heard my girlfriends say "Why should I shave my legs, hell we've been married for 3 years" or "Sometimes I won't even shower over the weekend because I have no where to go and I am married" It makes my skin crawl.

This is your mate - the person you chose to spend the rest of your life with, yet you treat them like second rate citizen saying who cares if you get all funky and hairy - YET if you were single you'd makes sure you were dressed to the nines? Nope, that is just weird (at least it is to me).

Then again, my most dominant female role model was my Leo grandmother. She was always dressed nice, did her make up and looked good when people came over. Even when she was in the hospital dying of cancer she asked me to help brush her hair and tidy her up. My mother (cancer sun / cancer moon) also took pride in her appearance (she is also a hairdresser so she needs to look nice).

posted May 12, 2006 06:32 PM         

The fed just raised the rate to 5%, so tack on another 1/2 cent for inflation guys, and there you have it.

Ya know, sometimes divorce ain't a bad thing. If working something out would make hell freeze over, God/dess would be most utterly pleased if you achieved that and so much more. But I know we are all human with lots of issues, and I doubt the Universe would be so angry with us for bringing up an issue in a relationship or making mistakes. We get to try again! Karmic gratifaction at its best. The problem comes back packaged in another way.

posted May 12, 2006 11:01 PM         

i've been through therapy and it has been written about. happier marriages are more common when men allow women to have influence over the relationship. if a man resists a woman's stregnth it's a weakness to a strong woman and we have few troubles saying bye. lots of men are macho and annoying and want to be the boss. they're raised like that, but its' changing.

posted May 13, 2006 04:13 AM         

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lots of men are macho and annoying and want to be the boss

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This is not the kind of man that I'm talking about. I'm talking about guys like myself who are very respectful if not overly so. It's not a matter of not wanting the woman to have influence over the relationship. It's a matter of a woman feeling entitled to be excessively critical throwing not only their man, but also their whole relationship out of whack. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as Lioneye's reference, but it's still worth considering. My main point is that if a woman is going to be critical it would be in her best interest to do it in a way that ensures the lines of communication stay open. The same is true in reverse as well.

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besides we don't grow without critisism

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I've got enough inner self-criticism to last a lifetime. I'd much rather have a helpful partner than a critic.

Also, some growth isn't able to be forced. Each person learns things in their own time, and sometimes not at all. I'm sure you know men and women who've been criticized their whole life for certain behavior, and yet they continue to do it anyway. Like a 60 year old smoker. Smokers are continually criticized throughout their lives, and yet some aren't able to give it up. Even though we know for certain that people [in general] are capable of quitting, some people can't find themselves capable of acheiving it.

I don't make that argument because I don't believe in Karma or teaching people, because I strongly believe that lots of things in life happen for a reason and are probably for the best in some way or another. I'm just saying that direct criticism isn't always going to produce the desired results.

posted May 13, 2006 03:01 PM         

Honestly in my interactions with the guy I'm being steady with, I don't pick on the small stuff to the point where it actually rocks the relationship. More like, I unconsciously brushed off the dandruff flakes from his shoulders and said, "I think I've got almost all of it." He went out on his own after that to get Head & Shoulders shampoo and asked me a few days later if I saw anything . . . I said, "Nope."

I do see your point where criticism can make something fall apart. When I was dating, guys would criticize. In some ways I encouraged it too, just see what they would do and where they'd take it. When I broke things off, it wasn't a big surprise.

posted May 13, 2006 07:45 PM         

For example, I don't want to commit to someone now unless I find them very physically attractive/sexy. My husband was unusual-looking, but if I'm being honest, I initially didn't find him terribly sexy, the reason being that he wasn't macho or responsible enough for me and I really felt I needed someone more like that. That, I think, was the problem. But now I am specific about what I want I can hopefully avoid making the same mistakes.

I think men and women nag each other, quite frankly.

posted May 14, 2006 02:38 PM         

Where's the link here? I do NOT criticise men. Sorry if you got that impression. I have never once had a go at any guy I've liked, or tried to ignite arguments. If anything, I try to avoid them. It's why I'm such a doormat.

Ah, but I'm not trying to be mean, right now. Just saying. I agree. But then women are said to be the ones who start arguments often cos they're the only ones who notice when there's a major problem and if they didn't say anything they'd carry on living their lives in misery I guess. Of course, there are always women who will argue for the sake of it. Men too. Probably Libras

posted May 14, 2006 03:10 PM         

The idea is similar to what I've said here, which is that guys are known to be worse communicators, and if you approach some of us the wrong way we'll become even more closed off toward you.

posted May 15, 2006 09:49 AM         

"The idea is similar to what I've said here, which is that guys are known to be worse communicators, and if you approach some of us the wrong way we'll become even more closed off toward you."

That comment reminds me of my Cappie friend... I love him to death... but we always debate about these things. We'll never agree. That can't be souly a man thing... I'm the same way.

posted May 16, 2006 12:32 PM         

Now, getting back to my theory that inequality on the domestic front is at the root of most couples' conflict - Women can be so darn passive aggressive, that instead of just saying "I'd like you to do more around the house", they just do it theirselves, and become irritable towards hubby, biting his head of at every stupid thing. Except THE thing, the one that's actually bugging them.

On the other hand, if they do come right out and say "You need to contribute more with the kids & the house work", Mr. Male Ego recoils - Women are not suppose to make demands on us like that. Who does she think she's talking to? She's not the boss of me.

Some of you will say "it's all in the way you say it" - But the situation may be that it doesn't matter how it's said, it's not responded to in a meaningfull way. It's either said too gently and therefore, doesn't convey any urgency (i.e. it's ok to ignore it), or said in a way that seems "demanding", and therefore is disregarded out of spite.

I'm telling you, the domestic enquality issue is a death sentance for many marriages. The resentment that it causes can lead to all kinds of other power struggles and petty behaviors that just erode the foundation of the marriage.

posted May 16, 2006 01:59 PM         

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But what's a girl to do when hints & gentle suggestions don't seem to have any effect?

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That's an extremely good question. I can totally see where this is coming from too. In my own life, my roommate who is a master at reading the signs and predicting the plots of tv shows and movies cannot at all seem to catch a hint about anything of a personal nature. That's always perplexed me.

The only suggestion I can give as to how to cope with that situation is to actively manage it together. It may be more on your side if you're the one initiating the conversation, but I'd recommend engaging the man in a more business-like manner. Lay it out as a problem that you both have to deal with.

Here's how it would ideally work in my mind.

Woman: I think we should go over the things we now have to manage together and figure out who's going to do what... (Pause to see if he's onboard. If he plays dumb :).. so that we don't get into a position where our responsibilities are unequal. (If he persists in giving attitude :) Listen, I know you don't like this stuff. I don't either. That's why we need to get together to manage it, so that it doesn't become an issue in our relationship.

Then when you have that meeting... well first, make it a meeting. This isn't a casual conversation in front of the tv. Sit down at a table, and negotiate.

Woman: Since we're now living together I think we should come to some agreement on what we expect of our living conditions.

How do you think we should handle the kitchen? Do you think we should run the dishwasher once a day? How do you want to divide up the cooking? If I cook will you do the dishes and put them away?

Et cetera.

Men like to problem solve. Engage that side of them. Make them come up with solutions to their own laziness.

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It's either said too gently and therefore, doesn't convey any urgency (i.e. it's ok to ignore it), or said in a way that seems "demanding", and therefore is disregarded out of spite.

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