posted January 06, 2008 10:45 PM         

Tell why you agree or disagree and include any examples from life to illustrate your opinion. For articles please paste 4-5 paragraphs of the most important information for discussion, and then link to the rest of the article for those who have the time and interest to read it.

posted January 06, 2008 10:47 PM         

1) Caring
2) Understand
3) Respect
4) Devotion
5) Validation
6) Reassurance

Men Primarily Need:

1) Trust
2) Acceptance
3) Appreciation
4) Admiration
5) Approval
6) Encouragement

Please note that these are PRIMARY needs, and that the author discusses in great detail how we all need all of these kinds of love, but usually to fully appreciate all of them, the primary needs must be met first.

posted January 06, 2008 11:03 PM         

Gray also focuses mainly on Western cultural gender issues which should also be considered, however his ideas seem to take general biological gender issues into consideration as well. Discussion and articles from both of these areas is also encouraged.

I'm going to type some excerpts from the section on Understanding Your Primary Love Needs.

posted January 06, 2008 11:21 PM         

The most powerful and practical aspect of this new understanding of love is that these different kinds of love are reciprocal. For example, when a Martian expresses his caring and understanding, a Venusian automatically begins to reciprocate and return to him the trust and acceptance that he primarily needs. The same thing happens when a Venusian expresses her trust – a Martian automatically will being to reciprocate with the caring she needs.

In the following six sections we will define the twelve kinds of love in practical terms and reveal their reciprocal natures.

1) She Needs Caring and He Needs Trust

When a man shows interest in a woman’s feelings and heartfelt concern for her well-being, she feels loved and cared for. When he makes her feel special in this caring way, he succeeds in fulfilling her first primary need. Naturally she begins to trust him more. When she trusts, she becomes more open and receptive.
When a woman’s attitude is open and receptive toward a man he feels trusted. To trust a man is to believe that he is doing his best and that he wants the best for his partner. When a woman’s reactions reveal a positive belief in her man’s abilities and intentions, his first primary love need is fulfilled. Automatically he is more caring and attentive to her feelings and needs.

posted January 06, 2008 11:25 PM         

Does he distinguish between "approval" and "validation", say?

Unfortunately, men and women are socialized in an insidiously sexist way and rewarded for reflecting the sexist status quo, punished for bucking it. But even given that, I think our needs and passions as human beings, deep down, vary based on the individual. Sometimes even racist stereotypes have some validity in our culture, just because of the insidious history of oppression...it's important, I think, for us to try to radically question all of these stereotypes and find our authentic selves.

One thing I look for in a man is someone who seems very individual and seems to see me as a completely unique human being, instead of someone who lumps "women" or "men" together as a group.

posted January 07, 2008 12:03 AM         

I can respect that, Lucia, but I don't believe that Gray the ex-monk is manipulating readers. I absolutely agree that gender is a cultural construct and shouldn't be blindly perpetuated. I also know that not understanding these differences creates hatred and mistrust between partners. Understanding the masculine force and the receptive feminine force is one of the first steps toward acceptance in my opinion.

posted January 07, 2008 12:15 AM         

2) She needs Understanding and He Need Acceptance

posted January 07, 2008 01:16 AM         

I think I should clarify that these are for people in exclusive relationships, not for people just dating. Gray has a book called Mars and Venus on a Date that discusses how these concepts are modified for people who are just in the first stages of a relationship (Attraction and Uncertainty).

posted January 07, 2008 12:07 PM         

Gray was a follower of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the guru made famous partly because the Beatles followed him, and who was extremely controversial because his practices (spending donations from his followers on a high-rolling, excessive lifestyle with multiple cars and homes; womanizing) directly contradicted many of his teachings. Gray does not have even a Bachelor's degree from an accredited, respected program. He dropped out of two respected (though not prestigious) colleges, and then got his BA and MA from the Maharishi's school in Switzerland. Those degrees would not be considered legitimate in any social science fields and would not have afforded him entry into a good accredited doctoral program in Europe or the United States. In fact, his "PhD" is from Columbia Pacific University, an UNACCREDITED CORRESPONDENCE school that closed in 2001. ("In the suit to close the school, Deputy Attorney General Asher Rubin referred to the school as "a diploma mill which has been preying on California consumers for too many years." The suit also called the school a "phony operation" offering "totally worthless [degrees] . . . to enrich its unprincipled promoters.")

Please don't misunderstand me--as someone who has a (legitimate, respected) PhD, I understand that many brilliant people and great thinkers do not have even a college degree. What bothers me is that instead of marketing his work using a fair and accurate description of his qualifications, and clarifying to readers that he has no formal training in psychology, theology, social science, medicine, the humanities, biology or any of the other fields they might assume he has trained in, he uses his dubious degree to mislead them.

Most of us with real doctorates don't use the title "Dr." or "PhD" on our books. We don't have to.

posted January 07, 2008 12:18 PM         

BUT, having read Gray's work, rather than drawing on professional experience working with couples or researching interpersonal dynamics, Gray cites pop cultural stereotypes of "men" and "women" that sound accurate or "true" to many readers, because such stereotypes are deeply embedded into a society which has historically used them for social control.

posted January 07, 2008 01:51 PM         

"What bothers me is that instead of marketing his work using a fair and accurate description of his qualifications, and clarifying to readers that he has no formal training in psychology, theology, social science, medicine, the humanities, biology or any of the other fields they might assume he has trained in, he uses his dubious degree to mislead them." ~Lucia

That is an excellent point and I had no idea.

That being said... is it really a horrible thing to agree to a "quicky" with the husband (or wife!) if you are not really in the mood? You might just "get into" the mood... and into a better mood.

I do believe Gray is someone who wants to help people and help society. It seems that people at all levels of intellect have messages for others and I can think of about 10 people I know personally who claim a benefit from his words (since I no longer trust the number of people he {or his promoters} "claims" to have helped lol). It is true that they probably don't have the time or energy to do what you mention... "To challenge sex stereotypes requires courage, creativity, inspiration and hard work." I think any small steps that lead them to greater fulfillment and peace with each other and their children is important.

I'm really glad our paths crossed so I could experience your point of view. I love your fire.

So, do you disagree with all/most of what he said in the 6 points? Have you transcended these points of view through "courage, creativity, inspiration and hard work"? I know that seems smart-ass, but I am actually interested in what you might be able to offer beyond Gray because I think you may have some things to teach me.

It also sounds like you may have written a book. Do you have a web site to promote it? It sounds like you have a lot to say.

posted January 07, 2008 02:21 PM         

The stuff typed out above...seems like men and women nearly need the same things.

Caring = Appreciation, Encouragement
Understanding = Acceptance, Approval
Respect = Appreciation, Acceptance, Approval
Devotion = Trust
Validation = Approval
Reassurance = Trust, Encouragement

posted January 07, 2008 02:48 PM         

Of course. What I'm saying is that John Gray consciously misleads people about his credentials. That doesn't say anything about his "level of intellect" at all--it says he's a manipulative liar. Having read his work, I truly believe that his motivation is to make money and become famous...not that there's anything wrong with those goals...but truly, this particular guy is a slick, power-tripping charleton. Otherwise he would be upfront about his credentials.

He has devised a dumbed down message to make people who are vulnerable, and who have been socialized into having traditional, sexist relationships, recognize what he's saying as true. A lot of what he says will be familiar to women in sexist relationships, just as if you say to a child who is battered, "Well, parents get mad and they hit, right?" The child will think, yes, he's describing my parents! And he'll be right. Parents who batter were often battered themselves...the whole society needs to change. That's true of male-female social roles, too. People may feel helped by Gray when they read descriptions and think, "Yes, that's what my sexist marriage is like!" It's interesting, Gray's ex-wife (Barbara de Angelis) is another writer of sexist pop self-help books...his current wife is a dance teacher, and according to articles, they have a very traditional marriage.

Gray's advice, much like "The Surrendered Wife", helps people settle for sexist relationships by taking traditional sexist roles as a given and striving to work within them. I can understand how some people might want to do that.

I myself don't have the energy to battle that insidious system all the time, and I don't know anyone who's "transcended" it! To me it's a daily practice of asking fresh, radical questions.

I like to read about astrology, and I haven't personally written any books that are relevent to this discussion.

posted January 07, 2008 03:37 PM         

Lucia,
You have changed my mind about Gray somewhat, I had no idea about Barbara De whatAngelasever and that really does say a lot that they both do the popular culture self-help books. Innnnnteresting. Otherwise I would argue that publicists and promoters can really run the show with "products" like that and therefore might argue that there is a possibility he is not a slick charleton.
I like your passion and I know you don't know me, but please understand that a lot of my own passion is for a lot of the people I was "brought to" over a decade ago who are in fact the children who were "hit" by their parents and are now the victims and perpetrators in the atrocities you mentioned. I am taking your words in, giving them great consideration and almost agree with your position. My mind also continues to ask: Isn't there a place for his brand of "dumbed down" "help"? I guess what I think I hear you saying is that overall what a person might take away from reading his books is more damaging to them then not reading his books. I don't think I agree with that.

I do understand what you are saying with this: "by taking traditional sexist roles as a given" and I agree to some extent. I guess I just have more peace with working within the way things are, but it thrills me that you don't! :^D hehe SOMEBODY needs to do something about this! hehe Write a book and tell everyone about it! (Of course they won't read it unless you join up with John Gray... lol) But I will cheer you on any day!

My horoscope transit for the day said:

blah blah blah... and then... "You may encounter someone today whose ideas have a great effect upon your mind. This is a good time for learning something new, because you can allow your beliefs to be transformed by what you learn. Also you will tend to have a strong effect on other people's thinking today." And I was seriously thinking, "Yeah right, how often do I meet someone whose ideas have a great effect on my mind?"
It's about time!

posted January 07, 2008 04:53 PM         

This is me. However, the Capricorn misunderstands it as just wanting to vent... I also misunderstand his just wanting to vent as seeking an answer.

posted January 07, 2008 05:28 PM         

I wish I could remember what the name of the program was my friend was into for a while...I want to say it was an Anthony Robbins thing, but it's been sooo many years and I never got into it myself.

Anyway, the part I remember was a lesson on learning to give your partner what they need to feel loved. One example was of a couple who were newlyweds. The wife would "cater" to the husband by handing him a towel the second he got out of the shower, get clothes ready for him, etc. He was kind of puzzled and told her she didn't have to do those things. He finally got kind of annoyed by it and asked her to stop. She got really upset by this and it made no sense to him.

On his part, he would tell her that she was beautiful and that he loved her, and wondered why she never said it back that much. As a matter of fact, it made her a little uncomfortable.

The lesson being that her way of expressing love was to do little things that would be helpful. It's what she learned that love means. SO she was doing what she WANTED to receive from him.

His idea of love was to express how you feel through communicating. He had no idea that his asking her not to do those things for him was asking her not to express love (in her mind). He felt unloved by her because she couldn't express herself verbally. She wasn't raised that way and it was uncomfortable and foreign to her.

So, they are both feeling rejected while trying their best to be loving and to show love.

Someone once told me that true love is giving someone what they want...not what you want. It's hard to do because we're all preprogrammed to give love the way that we learned.

"We are all tattooed in our cradles with the beliefs of our tribe."
~ Oliver Wendell Holmes

posted January 07, 2008 07:29 PM         

8th, I love your posts. I think I read/heard that same anecdote. That is really what he is saying and what I am saying by understanding the energies and needs of your partner. It is important to give people what they want/desire/need rather than the "kind" of love that you would prefer. Absolutely.

In general about this thread and others:

I guess everyone just disagrees on how different people are... and in a way it is true since no one is exactly like, our charts are like snowflakes, individual etc, and yet we are all comprised of the same essential energies. I guess I am just trying to make some connections between the two extremes.

posted January 08, 2008 12:04 AM         

MysticMelody, I definitely see the appeal of working with things as they are. When it comes to problem-solving in real life, it's necessary! But some people--like John Gray--aren't just working with things as they are, they're exacerbating and intensifying the problems of sexism and prejudice. So, yes, I think it would be better for people working out their relationship problems not to read John Gray at all!

That said, threads and forums like this where people can exchange personal experiences and opinions are great. You clearly started this thread in the spirit of honoring differences of opinion. I really do think Gray's motivation is to manipulate the vulnerable to use him as a guru, out of a $$ hungry power trip.

The best thing we can do is open our hearts to the different emotional needs of our friends and lovers instead of just assuming they're the same as ours. And the way to find out isn't to make sexist assumptions--it't to both open-mindedly pay attention, and to ask. (And to kindly, clearly, respectfully let others know what we want, need, feel instead of giving them piles of mixed messages.)

posted January 08, 2008 01:06 AM         

And that I agree completely it is very important for me to do some research on Gray's past to determine for myself if he really is a dishonest person as you contend and as the evidence you present seems to suggest. I almost always have to explore the situation for myself on issues like these, but you have given me a lot to go on.

Do you have similar or different opinions on any other authors/pop psych mill topics?