posted February 06, 2020 12:02 PM            

My first Saturn return is approaching, making it's exact conjunction January 2021. Has anyone here ever compared a Saturn Return chart to their Saturn Return experience? In my chart I have this return in a loose conjunction with the Sun and Jupiter, I am wondering if this will reflect in my partnerships and work as natally these planets rule my 7th and 10th

I imagine it would be a similar chart to a Solar Return chart, only with Saturn. Does it have the same validity to show what the Saturn return will bring and set for the next 30 year cycle?

I have uploaded mine here:

[IMG]=https://imgur.com/a/1MKr2wK.png[/IMG]

As well as in comparison to my Natal

Is anyone able to give any insight on what you would expect with this Saturn Return?

Thank you

posted February 07, 2020 01:20 PM            

And ... is it drawn for the geographical location where you currently expect to be at the time of the return? (Chicago City Hall?)

posted February 07, 2020 04:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by wayfinder:
Hello there,

I imagine it would be a similar chart to a Solar Return chart, only with Saturn. Does it have the same validity to show what the Saturn return will bring and set for the next 30 year cycle?

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No, it is not constructive to think of it that way in my experience. It focuses too much on too long a span of prediction, distracting from the whole arc of your growth from birth. Any major transit by one of the non-personals will highlight the natal dynamics of the chart, which is soul history outlining lessons to grow through. So when we have something like Saturn's return to its natal positions it is a check-in with how we're doing with the course of responsibility, working within limits, etc, as outlined in the natal chart.

Also, this chart jumps ahead nearly a year. It is always best to look at what is going on now and understand the longer lasting major transits of Jupiter through Pluto (inclusive) instead of highlighting one transit in the future (or making an entire chart based on it).

For example ...

Saturn is squaring your natal Mercury -- now. This transit urges a serious look at what you may consider the problems or the deficits in your thinking and communication, generally reining in the mental processes to a more internal inventory taking. But it can lean people to the negative view, seeing problems where they don't necessarily exist.

Pluto is also square natal Mercury. This is a period in which your thinking and communication needs to be transformed in major ways. Be very careful about coming to far-reaching notions or drastic changes of thinking or beliefs that don't really have enough substance behind them but are appealing because they're more forceful or passionate. Consider the whole of the nature of your thinking process and how you communicate and be willing to reform what no longer works for you.

Saturn is now quincunx your natal Mars. This transit urges adjustments in self-control or regulation of behavioral impulses, even mental impulses since natal Mars is in Gemini. Specifically tendencies to split energies in a way that is not productive or lacks the focus that allow for beneficial decision making. It can also mark a period in which you have to pay a different kind of attention to what you're doing in your work to increase its effectiveness or the quality of the outcome; improvement of time usage, scheduling, etc. It may likely be for a temporary reason, but can help changes to habitual patterns.

You've also got Saturn [20S58] & Pluto [22S04] still in transit parallel natal Neptune [21S37]. So there are some aspects of your worldview and understanding of how things work that need to develop further; ideals for living still in development. Here is my article on Pluto's transit conjunct/parallel natal Neptune, since that transit will continue on after Saturn moves away over the three weeks or so:
https://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2019/07/22/plutos-transit-conjunct-parallel-natal-neptune/

All these transits of Saturn (and Pluto) deal in processes happening now and your growth and windows of opportunity now. Jumping ahead to something like a future Saturn return is generally motivated by apprehension even if you're not aware of it. Attempting to reduce the next thirty years to a single chart is also reductionist and largely illusory.

posted February 08, 2020 12:16 AM            

Think of yourself as living to the age of 84 ... thus experiencing 83 Solar Returns, 2 Saturn returns and 1 Uranus Return - all of which are mapping/"timing" the (ideal) unfolding of the potential in the Natal Chart. ... None of us will achieve that ideal - but the charts provide us with a pattern which reveals "where we are coming from" (Natal Chart) and "where we are aiming/intending to go to" (Uranus Return) in our current lifetime.

And, of course, an 84-year old will also experience 7 Jupiter Returns; 40+ Mars Returns; 83+ Venus Returns; 83+ Mercury Returns and more than 1000 Moon/Lunar Returns. ... Yet, despite the existence of all these signposts/milestones, most people will experience the life events created by these cycles as "a series of unconnected dots" rather than as patterns of unfoldment that were programmed at birth (via the natal chart). ... http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/241618.html
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

For example ... in the natal chart, I have Pluto (in Leo/11th) making a 1deg34mins square to Mercury (in Scorpio/2nd). ... In the First Saturn Return Chart Mercury (in Leo/3rd) is semi-square Pluto (in Libra/4th) - and the latter makes a 12th harmonic Learning Triangle with the Sun (in Virgo/3rd) plus Neptune (in Sagittarius/5th), whilst the former makes a 12th harmonic Learning Triangle with Venus (in Scorpio/5th) plus Moon (in Sagittarius/5th). ... In my Second Saturn Return, Pluto is opposite Mercury and qcx Venus (in a Stimulation/Irritation Triangle).

Oppositions = projecting own issues onto another, in a way that third-parties do not see the issue in ourself.

Squares = projecting own issues onto another, in a way that third-parties do see the issue in ourselves (but say nothing)

Semi-squares = projecting own issues, in a way that third-paties do see the issue in ourselves (and tell us so).

During my First Saturn Cycle, I was completely unaware of my natal Mercury-Pluto square's "attention to details" being a problem - and third-parties told me it was an asset. ... During the Second Saturn Cycle, I received regular feedback from others that it was/is a problem - but continued to see it as an asset myself. ... During the (current) Third Saturn Cycle, I am finally recognising this problem in myself.

posted February 08, 2020 11:45 AM            

quote:

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Is anyone able to give any insight on what you would expect with this Saturn Return?

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posted February 08, 2020 04:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
No, it is not constructive to think of it that way in my experience. It focuses too much on too long a span of prediction, distracting from the whole arc of your growth from birth. Any major transit by one of the non-personals will highlight the natal dynamics of the chart, which is soul history outlining lessons to grow through. So when we have something like Saturn's return to its natal positions it is a check-in with how we're doing with the course of responsibility, working within limits, etc, as outlined in the natal chart.

Also, this chart jumps ahead nearly a year. It is always best to look at what is going on now and understand the longer lasting major transits of Jupiter through Pluto (inclusive) instead of highlighting one transit in the future (or making an entire chart based on it).

For example ...

[b]Saturn is squaring your natal Mercury -- now. This transit urges a serious look at what you may consider the problems or the deficits in your thinking and communication, generally reining in the mental processes to a more internal inventory taking. But it can lean people to the negative view, seeing problems where they don't necessarily exist.

Pluto is also square natal Mercury. This is a period in which your thinking and communication needs to be transformed in major ways. Be very careful about coming to far-reaching notions or drastic changes of thinking or beliefs that don't really have enough substance behind them but are appealing because they're more forceful or passionate. Consider the whole of the nature of your thinking process and how you communicate and be willing to reform what no longer works for you.

Saturn is now quincunx your natal Mars. This transit urges adjustments in self-control or regulation of behavioral impulses, even mental impulses since natal Mars is in Gemini. Specifically tendencies to split energies in a way that is not productive or lacks the focus that allow for beneficial decision making. It can also mark a period in which you have to pay a different kind of attention to what you're doing in your work to increase its effectiveness or the quality of the outcome; improvement of time usage, scheduling, etc. It may likely be for a temporary reason, but can help changes to habitual patterns.

You've also got Saturn [20S58] & Pluto [22S04] still in transit parallel natal Neptune [21S37]. So there are some aspects of your worldview and understanding of how things work that need to develop further; ideals for living still in development. Here is my article on Pluto's transit conjunct/parallel natal Neptune, since that transit will continue on after Saturn moves away over the three weeks or so:
https://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2019/07/22/plutos-transit-conjunct-parallel-na tal-neptune/

All these transits of Saturn (and Pluto) deal in processes happening now and your growth and windows of opportunity now. Jumping ahead to something like a future Saturn return is generally motivated by apprehension even if you're not aware of it. Attempting to reduce the next thirty years to a single chart is also reductionist and largely illusory.

[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
No, it is not constructive to think of it that way in my experience. It focuses too much on too long a span of prediction, distracting from the whole arc of your growth from birth. Any major transit by one of the non-personals will highlight the natal dynamics of the chart, which is soul history outlining lessons to grow through. So when we have something like Saturn's return to its natal positions it is a check-in with how we're doing with the course of responsibility, working within limits, etc, as outlined in the natal chart.

Also, this chart jumps ahead nearly a year. It is always best to look at what is going on now and understand the longer lasting major transits of Jupiter through Pluto (inclusive) instead of highlighting one transit in the future (or making an entire chart based on it).

For example ...

[b]Saturn is squaring your natal Mercury -- now. This transit urges a serious look at what you may consider the problems or the deficits in your thinking and communication, generally reining in the mental processes to a more internal inventory taking. But it can lean people to the negative view, seeing problems where they don't necessarily exist.

Pluto is also square natal Mercury. This is a period in which your thinking and communication needs to be transformed in major ways. Be very careful about coming to far-reaching notions or drastic changes of thinking or beliefs that don't really have enough substance behind them but are appealing because they're more forceful or passionate. Consider the whole of the nature of your thinking process and how you communicate and be willing to reform what no longer works for you.

Saturn is now quincunx your natal Mars. This transit urges adjustments in self-control or regulation of behavioral impulses, even mental impulses since natal Mars is in Gemini. Specifically tendencies to split energies in a way that is not productive or lacks the focus that allow for beneficial decision making. It can also mark a period in which you have to pay a different kind of attention to what you're doing in your work to increase its effectiveness or the quality of the outcome; improvement of time usage, scheduling, etc. It may likely be for a temporary reason, but can help changes to habitual patterns.

You've also got Saturn [20S58] & Pluto [22S04] still in transit parallel natal Neptune [21S37]. So there are some aspects of your worldview and understanding of how things work that need to develop further; ideals for living still in development. Here is my article on Pluto's transit conjunct/parallel natal Neptune, since that transit will continue on after Saturn moves away over the three weeks or so:
https://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2019/07/22/plutos-transit-conjunct-parallel-na tal-neptune/

All these transits of Saturn (and Pluto) deal in processes happening now and your growth and windows of opportunity now. Jumping ahead to something like a future Saturn return is generally motivated by apprehension even if you're not aware of it. Attempting to reduce the next thirty years to a single chart is also reductionist and largely illusory.

[/B]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
No, it is not constructive to think of it that way in my experience. It focuses too much on too long a span of prediction, distracting from the whole arc of your growth from birth.

Also, this chart jumps ahead nearly a year. It is always best to look at what is going on now and understand the longer lasting major transits of Jupiter through Pluto (inclusive) instead of highlighting one transit in the future (or making an entire chart based on it).

Attempting to reduce the next thirty years to a single chart is also reductionist and largely illusory.

---

Thanks for your reply Kannon. I agree that no aspect of Astrology is beneficial being reduced to represent the whole. For me personally, the Saturn archetype and its teachings have become much more clear when it conjuncted Pluto and has made it's way to conjuncting my North Node where it will transit up until the time of my Saturn Return. That as well as the aspects you have listed and the last pass of Uranus square to my Natal Saturn / Jupiter opposition before moving to conjunct my Venus - tsquare with Saturn/Moon, Jupiter, leads me to believe the lessons of the Saturn archetype in relation to my life the past 30 are being heavily shown now until my first return in 2021.

Perhaps it's the 12th house Saturn, the past few weeks it has speaking to me loudly in dreams - the most recent one was a series of chapters showing lessons I am integrating now, all while pushing me in a new direction. It ended on the revisiting a childhood home, the "Saturn" archetype (he looks a lot like Jesus in my dream - HA, but goes by "Saturn") handed me a new born baby - I kissed the baby 30 times and it was very joyful. Maybe a little apprehension here, I think it's more excitement of how all these connections will unify to one picture.

It is silly to reduce the next 30 years to a single chart, however I enjoy entertaining the notion that it can give a glimpse into the Saturn archetype and its teaching for the cycle and what new challenges and structures it will be asking me to step up to.

posted February 08, 2020 04:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
[QUOTE][b]Is anyone able to give any insight on what you would expect with this Saturn Return?

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Thank you for your reply Graham. I've updated my Saturn Return chart above to the exact location I expect to be, it is accurate to the second of Saturn.

What you've described in your experience is what I am feeling the themes of now, some hard truths on how some of my Saturn aspects have been a problem and really shaped me since birth.

I will definitely look into this Triangle more, I am mot super familiar with the 9th harmonics, is does sound fascinating and something I will research next.

posted February 09, 2020 01:36 AM            

quote:

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will definitely look into this Triangle more, I am mot super familiar with the 9th harmonics, is does sound fascinating and something I will research next.

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In the Saturn Return (i.e.. the born-again-you in your dream) ... the Saturn-Sun-Jupiter conjunction (of objective/yang planets) in objective/yang Aquarius is making a 9H aspect to subjective/yin Moon in subjective/yin Cancer. So, since both Moon and Saturn are now in their own signs - and the 9th harmonic aspect is a pleasurable interaction - my GUESS is that the natal "switching-off" may have become a mechanism for avoiding arguments (rather than for obtaining respite from arguments which you "need to have").

Thus ... (if my guess is correct) ... 30 years on from the upcoming Saturn Return, those subjective Moon feeling/emotions may have become suppressed (internalised) to a point where they are affecting your physical health. ... Hence, the sooner you recognise (during the Second Saturn Cycle) that NEED to release tension by arguing-the-toss-with-others the better it will be (for everyone).

posted February 13, 2020 07:15 PM            

It definitely gives it a different flavor imagining it from the place of the Sun. After taking a few days to process, with all the current Saturn transits I am experiencing, the common thread between most, if not all of the lessons currently feels to be about boundaries. I feel like I have been working on this for so long and it can sometimes barely feel like i've made progress. It feels as though the Sun takes on the weight instead of distributing what I need to outwards to help maintain my environments, relationships, routines etc. I think I go into do mode instead of asking for what I need. I've said in the past that it sometimes physiologically brought me pain to put up boundaries - a profound sadness like I am hurting the other person. I think the Sun being the planet with the harmonious aspects here seems to just take everything on. This absolutely stems from fear of arguing or any sort of conflict with others.

posted February 14, 2020 03:42 AM            

quote:

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This absolutely stems from fear of arguing or any sort of conflict with others.

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If you draw your natal chart (at astro.com) in Huber style - which uses Koch houses - the table posted below is available in the additional tables :-

Note that this shows the low-energy point of the 11th house as being at 16Capricorn10, and your natal Neptune is on that point (at 16Cap36). ... The Huber School of Astrology teaches that planets at low points 'tend to be hidden from the outside world, which can create difficulties. If you have a planet on a Low Point you may think that nobody sees or hears that aspect of you, or wants what you have to offer. You are likely to make a fuss in attempting to be noticed. The more you do this the more likely it is that other people will find it irritating." (From The Cosmic Egg Timer, by Joyce Hopewell.)

This indicates that your Neptunian avoidance of arguing with others may actually be a mechanism for "getting noticed" by others - and that those others find it irritating rather than placating.

Hence ... you can spend the next 30 years experiencing the consequences of avoiding arguments with others, and learning why doing so is inappropriate ... or you can use the Law of Grace to become an observer of (rather than participant in) those 2nd Saturn Cycle events - by learning the lesson now/at the start (rather than the end) of that cycle.