posted July 24, 2004 12:06 AM         

And when does it become a profitic dream? Is that only when it involves large groups of people on a global scale or can that also be for a smaller group say at your job or any other small gathering of people?

Thanks to all in advance.

-Irish

posted July 25, 2004 11:37 PM         

I guess my question is...Would a dream make you vote differently?

The reason I ask is that I wonder if people would take that kind of information seriously enough that it would change their minds.

I also wonder if a person had a dream like that and told others about it would it change the outcome of distiny? And would that be bad karma for the one who spoke up about what they had seen?
I also wonder what type of negitive reaction others would have towards the dreamer. Would they feel that the dreamer was nuts or trying to sway votes?

I guess that what I am saying is that with power (or dreams in this case) comes great responsibility.

What do you think?

posted July 26, 2004 03:09 PM         

I've had precognative dreams but most of the time it's something silly like.. dreaming the exact outfit a friend will wear the next day, or dreaming a phone call. I dreamed of the Northridge earthquake in California the night before it happened -- I lived in New York at the time. Sort of pointless, really.

posted July 26, 2004 08:53 PM         

I find your story very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I would love to hear more about your own experiences.

Philbird-

Thank you for your insight. As I am sure that you know, I was "testing the waters" so to speak. I do not talk about the "visions" that I have for fear of persicution. However, I do document everyone and rely on my best friend to help me understand what I saw. She is the only person that I tell unless I feel that I need to tell someone something to steer them in the right direction. They never know it was a "vision" that made me speak to them.

As for the stuff about the elections and the canidates....I cannot say with any certanity one way or the other. Like you said it was a "vision".

I thank you all for letting me talk about this with you. Anymore thoughts?

posted July 28, 2004 08:34 PM         

LLL

posted July 29, 2004 04:24 AM         

The disaster is that there are no candidates to vote for.

In my opinion, the elections were decided long ago. Bush will "win". We are only given the illusion that we have a choice.

posted July 29, 2004 07:46 AM         

Btw, precognitive dreams are something that i have a lot, but they are always insignificant things like knowing i've seen that scene of a soap before, or calling the letters out on countdown before they appear (because i dreamt it the night before).

Nothing tangibly useful has been offered by these dreams. I say tangibly because who can say how such small events alter the way people think and in canon, their actions. (Grandfather paradox - gotta luv it)

Although (ah spiralling now) an interesting thread emerged i think two years ago ona web board. u may of heard about it.
- A man calling himself John Titor claimed that he had travelled 'backwards' in time from the year 2036 (i think it was that year anyway). The first thing he did when he appeared was to post pictures of his ship and the manual. He made certain 'predictions' (which would have been telling history from his PoV) which have all come true. He also claimed that the grandfather paradox was incorrect... stating that multiple realities (the trouser legs of time! - Gotta luv Terry Pratchett) was the correct theory, rather than a single linear timeline.

Of course, there are many objections to be made against the validity of such information, but i thought it would be interestin to stick it in, since it just popped into my head.

So goin back to the dreams. If someone has a prophetic dream on even a single person scale (because that, in my opinion, can still be called prophetic), and relates that dream to somebody else. That person's thoughts would be different. For instance, they may think the dreamer is a nutcase, and would probably try to avoid them, put them in a hospital, etc. Many possibilities, all of which would not have happened if the dreamer had kept shtum, be they good futures or bad.

On the other hand however, there are also an infinite number of possibilities that can happen if the dreamer does not keep shtum. Both good and bad.

In the vast scheme of things on a multiversal scale, (assuming multiple realities are in fact real) it would make very little difference if the dreamer related their dream or not.

assuming multiple realities are incorrect and that each possible outcome of a decision does not occur, then it changes completely and the relating (or non-relating?!) of the dream appears to become a hugely significant event.
BUT THEN it occurs that each and EVERY decision made by each and EVERY person/animal/insect/etc on the planetis equally significant. As each of them, in varying ways, are moulding our reality.
But since we are (currently) unable to perceive what the universe would be like if the dream is related/not related, then nobody will be able to determine if the events that transpired were better or worse then those that would if the dream had been related/not related.

So whichever theory is correct, (linear timeline or mutliple realities), in the end it becomes clear that the decisions we make are so insignificant that it is not possible to make a right or wrong choice. So we must look elsewhere for a justification model for our actions. Perhaps morality?

That was a long one...must go and lie down now!!

btw, please pick my argument to pieces and point out flaws/inconsistencies/counter arguments. I'm not claiming all the above is correct, but it is the truth as far as i perceive it. Maybe i missed some tasty morsol of knowledge which would radically alter the whole thing!!! Feed me!!

posted July 29, 2004 10:29 PM         

Kev-

I agree and see your point and I appericate your insight. Now about the morality issue. If the dreamer was not considered "crazy" then I feel that they would have a moral obligation not to stir the pot into a frenzy. It would do no one any good to get upset about events that may come or may not come. However, if the dreamer felt that it would be in the best interest of others to know of a situation and knew the people that they needed to tell in order to make the "vision" known and therefore documented then I feel that they have a moral obligation to do so.

I also object to people with this ability to charge large sums of money for their services on a personal level. I feel that that is an abuse of a gift for ones own gain. I feel that people that speak of these types of "visions" are often used as a "parlor trick" and are not seen as the seers that they are. This is why I think that most of these people NEVER speak of these things with those outside of their inner circle of friends.

Which leads me to the cryptic talk that some people think that they need to use to cover up "some big mystery" about themselves or others. If these people are truely afraid of someone persicuting them then they would not speak at all. I feel that a "vision" is just that and (like you) what will happen will happen, no matter what is said or done.

As for my own "visions", I have seen many things that have come true and some that have not. I have chosen to stay silent to avoid the moral complcations that may arrise when some "nutcase" wants to spin something out of control. However, there are times when I have to speak to someone and let them know of a situation that they may not be aware of. (Even Marge Simpson knows the value of gentle naging! LOL)

I am very curious about others ideas about this subject. I am greatful for everyone's openess! I love a great discussion!

posted July 30, 2004 09:31 AM         

Thanks, after reading your thoughts on the morailty of the subject i felt that you have a good deal of insight into the way society works.

I get the feeling this is going to be a long one, so before i start, let me outline my own personal beliefs on judging 'good' from 'evil' in a person. (Please don't all yell at me for using those terms, i use them loosely.) Since it is not possible to accurately determine all the effects of our actions, one cannot be judged based upon them alone. This was the center-piece of a debate i had with one of my friends many months back. Her main argument was that say, a doctor can always be judged as 'better' than a thief. I imediately rejected this idea (the atrocities performed by Harold Shipman in the UK had only recently happened), saying that there will, undeniably, be in existence a doctor whose actions can be objectively deemed as worse then a thief's. (I should point out here that i am basing this argument on a simple level and not going into multiple realities/linear timelines again. If i did, the matter would change wholly.)
Going from there, I put forward the idea that perhaps, rather than basing someone's 'worth' on their actions, it may be a better idea to do so upon how they react to the consequences of their actions and alter their behaviour to avoid the negative and cultivate the positive. I accept that it is not possible to achieve 100% (or anywhwere near that) success in this endeavor, but the fact that a person has TRIED, to my mind, speaks a lot about their morailty and, in canon, their 'worth'.

Anyway, back to the point. As has already been identified, no matter how small the precog dream seems to be, one cannot say with anywhere near any degree of certainty how significant the outcome of relaying the dream will be - on a linear timeline basis. While on a subjective level i feel it is up to the dreamer in question whether or not they relate the experience (according to the code of ethics outlined above), on an objective level, this becomes difficult as, one person is 'in effect' deciding the outcome of a given situation. (I am aware that the sheer 'logistics' involved effectively nullify this, howver the point still stands, despite the fact that it cannot be attained in our present society.)

Due to the shape of society as it stands today, it is not possible for an objective look at the situation prior to the relating of a precog dream, therefore, it falls back to the subjective opinion of the dreamer by default. A fact which, cannot be escaped, but i still maintain my disapointment that it is the case.

I think another lie down is in order!

posted August 02, 2004 12:38 PM         

I personally feel that no decision is insignificant. In fact, every action/decision should be made with every consideration. That's my opinion. I think it comes down to free will and responsibility.

Also, I believe in the multiverse/parallel universe theory, while maintaining the importance of perceived linear time. Quantum mechanics (of the parallel universe school) fascinates me.

posted August 04, 2004 03:49 AM         

That said, very simply, I think the whole process has always been manipulated - particularly on the national level. And now, with electronic voting ... easier than ever. There are so many security problems with electronic voting technology you would not believe it. Funny how the media ignores it. Not so funny, really.

There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free

I forget who said that, but he wraps up my sentiments precisely.

posted August 04, 2004 11:05 AM         

I am very interested in this years election for SO many reasons. A few conspericy theories of my own make the watching of the debates more fun.

I am happy to know that you also are interested and well read on quantum theory and machanics. Little Lady Leo teases me cause I cannot add 2 and 2 half the time but understand quantum phyics. Did you hear of Stephen Hawking's new findings on blackholes? Information excaping the event horizon and all...fasinating stuff!