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Author Topic:   Inifinite Growth, Finite Resources (Harpyr)
proxieme
unregistered
posted February 17, 2003 10:42 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Capitalism is based on the theory of INFINITE growth. Unfortunetly we live in a world of FINITE resources. It's high time we wake up to that fact before we can't repair the damage we've caused. We need to use the boundless source of human creativity to envision an entirely new system for a new era.

Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It was wonderful to see someone post that.
I've been saying the same thing for a while (not that long - I'm only 22 ), but it doesn't seem like anyone around me gets it.
But, then again, I am in Virginia, not Oregon.

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N_wEvil
unregistered
posted February 17, 2003 11:13 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
oh good - someone else noticed this small but important fact as well.

Well..at least the financial sector is unlimited...oh wait, no it's not...they don't make anything. at all. ever. do they?

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 17, 2003 04:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, no - you see, N_w, that's when the die-hard capitalists say, "To Space!!!"

And/or they rant and rave that well, hell, other species expand and expand if they have no restricting force; it's not our fault that we've been resourceful enough to dispose of our restrictions.
But then, you know, I figure that since we have giganitic and highly interconnected forebrains, we better use them before we ourselves become the restriction - er, more so than we already have.

And then, AND THEN, you have people come back with, "Well, human ingenuity has prevented that disaster before. For centuries - centuries, I say - people have had the same concern and pounded their drums of doom, but we have time and time again thought of ways to increase the efficiency of food production and water extraction."

Never mind that that's been at the expense of crop diversity - monocrops, anyone? -, essential if there's going to effective non-pesticidal, et al resistance to disease; and ignoring the fact that there are fewer and fewer uncontaminated aquifers. We can only extract and pinch and fudge so much.

And then they say, "Ah, but that's where genetic engineering comes in; and we're working on increasingly effective ways to desalinize ocean water - there's your "uncontaminated aquifer" right there. Well, once the product goes through our snazzy new plants and comes out tasting like pool water, that is."

But I've and strayed a bit from the topic at hand.
I'll merge them back together.

OK, it just gets me how so many people are completely unconcerned with unfettered population growth, and while with some their position is actually a non-position (they haven't thought it through, but, dammit, they want five kids that are biologically theirs running around), I've actually heard others take the stand that further human growth is desired because "you can't have economic growth if you don't have more people with which to expand."

They argue for corporate space exploration because the business sector really needs further resources to exploit if stagnation is to be prevented (well, that and they prolly wouldn't have to worry quite so much about safety protocols).

Ack. I'm tired. I had something else to say, but I lost my train of thought b/c my roomie came in and started talking to me.
Yeah, so, on to 9 billion! On to 12! Let's see if we can hit 15 by the end of this century!
We can take it.

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N_wEvil
unregistered
posted February 17, 2003 05:11 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
before fundamentalists, or communists, or people wearing bananaman costumes nuke the whole planet

anyway, by the time we get to colonise the solar system we'll have been exterminated by a meaner and greedier bunch of sentient beings....

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Oxychick
unregistered
posted February 17, 2003 05:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ouselves?

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Harpyr
Newflake

Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010

posted February 17, 2003 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your're welcome, Proxieme!

Have you heard of permaculture?
It offers fascinating solutions to our global woes. Check it out: http://www.permaculture.org.uk/pcasite/mm.asp?mmfile=ethics

There are lots of other resources out there to learn about it and it offers solutions that give me hope, despite this ballooning population.

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Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 4782
From: The Goober Galaxy
Registered: Apr 2009

posted February 18, 2003 03:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, knowledge expands to infinity. Our entire pool of knowledge doubles every few years (used to be every seven years, but now I think it's less).

And sentient beings who use space travel are likely to be Peaceful (or else they would have wiped themselves out before getting that far).

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 10:14 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, but it's all about what we do with that knowledge...

I wasn't dissing the idea of space travel;
I just hate the fact that corporate-sponsored exploration is being advocated by some b/c it would prove profitable - and hence viable.

If we're to go, we've got to find another way. I'm just not comfortable w/ travel for the sake of exploitation (of course, that's been the purpose of all other types/instances of earth-exploration, right?)

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 10:33 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep, Harpyr, I've heard a bit about it, but just in passing; I remember hearing about it and going, "Wow - what a terrific idea." I think it might have actually been on a program that I watched that profiled...oh, I forgot the term, so I'll just make one up...native grown farmers (you know, people who grow crops that are native to and grow best in their region).

Thanks for the link I'll look into it...right...now.

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Lost Leo
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 12:32 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
science & technology = infinite resources

It is a challenge for man as a species and we will overcome it, perhaps with the help of capitalism...

one thing I have to give Lindaland, is the awesome variety of opinion from throughout the world posted, I don't get to see the common man's perspective often from European countries.

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N_wEvil
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 12:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'd say in "spite of capitalism" - its my honest feeling that it really gets in the way more than anything these days.

But yep - different opinions are always good.

What's better is here you can discuss it without a shouting match developing

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 03:15 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How does "science + technology = infinite resources" ???

I don't see that much virtue in our arrogance.

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Harpyr
Newflake

Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010

posted February 18, 2003 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I definetly think capitalism gets in the way. All the major systems of government/economics are majorly flawed, IMO.

Diversity/Resilience/Creativity of Biological Life = infinite resources
would be more apt, I think.

We need a system that takes these 9 things into account-


  • We must protect the viability of the life-sustaining systems of the planet, which are everywhere under attack.
  • A realm of the sacred exists, of things too precious to be commodified, and must be respected.
  • Communities must control their own resources and destinies.
  • The rights and heritages of indigenous communities must be acknowledged and respected.
  • Enterprises must be rooted in communities and be responsible to communities and to future generations.
  • Opportunity for human beings to meet their needs and fulfill their dreams should be open to all.
  • Labor deserves just compensation, security and dignity.
  • The human community has a collective responsibility to assure the basic means of life, growth, and development for all it's members.
  • Democracy means that all people have a voice in the decisions that affect them, including economic decisions.

I didn't write these, by the way. They are from Starhawk's latest book, 'Webs of Power, Notes from the Global Uprising'

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Lost Leo
unregistered
posted February 18, 2003 11:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess I should explain...

Science and technology will develop to a point where we won't use resources...
it's already started, hydrogen cars y'all!

And prox, that's not US arrogance, that's my faith in humanity arrogance!

Harpyr, I've liked and found much worthiness in your persona, but your radical liberalism is starting to sound like jwhop's ultra-conservatism, just a thought...

And this Harpyr, "All the major systems of government/economics are majorly flawed"

Come on now, that is just ridiculous, who are you... really?

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proxieme
unregistered
posted February 19, 2003 12:54 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, nononono - I wasn't implying US arrogance, just good ole' human species arrogance, like you said

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Lost Leo
unregistered
posted February 19, 2003 11:18 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Harpyr
Newflake

Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010

posted February 19, 2003 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's a reason I'm so heavily leftist. It's because we have very little time to get off this collision course with utter self destruction that greed-run-rampant is bringing upon us.
It's like this metaphor-
If a teeter-totter is heavily weighted on one side, you wouldn't stand in the middle to get it back into balance, would you? You'd have to put some weight on the other side first and then you can worry about standing in the middle.

I am one of those people who is standing on the far left because there still isn't nearly enought weight over there to bring this world back into balance. I do agree that moderation is good, however. Extremism of any kind isn't an ideal. However, we aren't at a point where I feel comfortable standing in the middle. I don't think things are changing for the better fast enough. We only have a couple generations left to change the way we interact with the natural world before Mother GAia Earth decides we are more of a pest than a helper and shakes us off her back.
So yes, I am unabashedly radical leftist in many things in order to counter those radical right wings out there that would keep this crazy train on a course that is taking us someplace nobody wants to go.

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Harpyr
Newflake

Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010

posted February 27, 2004 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey here's a blast from the past...
I've just been reading some old threads and while I've shuddered at some of my older postings because of the harshness of my approach in them, this thread I think has some good conversation in it. I especially like what proxieme has to say.. Just wanted to share it with the newbies.

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raine6
unregistered
posted February 28, 2004 04:29 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
life can get funny sometimes...we are all the products of our upbringing and our personal circumstances...like the blind men and the elephant, we NEED each other's perspectives in order to gain a greater understanding of what an elephant REALLY looks like

now i, personally, am the "black sheep" of the family. i have always had this great love for the underdog--which is why i went to the other side of the world to teach school in new guinea...i was young and idealistic and thought i would save the world starting there and working my way back...

it was all in response to JFK's call to ask

because of that, i have endured health problems that have prevented me from being able to support myself...and my 'scope says i needed to have others meet my needs, so i could learn what it means to really "help" someone...i learned a lot of ways NOT to help someone!

the bottom line is that we all need to see our own inner beauty in the "reflexions" of others. it is easier to see beauty in the life of another than it is in our own, and when we share what we see, on a reciprocal basis, what a world!

raine6

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