posted May 07, 2003 11:37 PM              

Don't quite understand mankind sometimes, how filled with violence we can all get.

posted May 08, 2003 12:15 AM            

The major supporters of terrorism in the Middle East have been warned and have concrete proof the US is serious about the subject. Right in the middle of 2 nations that support terrorism, Syria and Iran, there are American and Coalition troops and the President has made it clear that the war on terrorism isn't over. He also made it clear that nations who support and give shelter and aid to terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves.

It appears both Syria and Iran have gotten the message and a Prime Minister has emerged for the Palestinians who understands that Hammas and Islamic Jihad have to be restrained for there to be any chance for a Palestinian State. If that happens there will be a Palestanian nation and much of the excuse for terrorism in the region will disappear. Really a pretty brilliant plan overall.

posted May 08, 2003 12:25 PM            

I still find it an amazing oxymoron for anyone to believe that peace can be achieved through violence...

...and yet, to go back through history, I don't think one could ever find a time of peace on earth, there has always been war somewhere.

posted May 08, 2003 02:27 PM              

I agree with you 100%...and we should never forget that the poison and the antidote always comes from the same snake...

Jakie

posted May 08, 2003 04:24 PM              

I was out of town for eight days...let's say...in a kind of honeymoon trip...

Love
Jakie

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved"
--Victor Hugo

posted May 09, 2003 12:21 PM            

If you're equating violence to war then for certain, war most assuredly does bring peace. Perhaps you'll cite the wars Germany, Italy and Japan have fought against the United States since W.W.II?? Against Britain?? Against France?? Against any other nation?? A decisive, crushing military victory has brought peace down through all of history. Nothing is forever but I'll settle for 60 years of peace and counting between those combatants--will you?

I never said a Palestinian State would stop the terrorism. The terrorists have done everything in their power to derail a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. What I said was that a Palestinian State would remove the "excuse" for terrorism in the region. The real goal of the terrorist supporting states in the Middle East is the destruction of Israel.

The antidote for terrorism is a high speed projectile commonly called a bullet.

posted May 09, 2003 03:04 PM            

I never said you support a Palestinian State, but I did misunderstand the tone of your post. Sorry if I implied that you did.

I vehemently disagree with some of the things that seem to be your ideals...but I also am willing to concede that violence/war are a part of our world that will not be going anywhere anytime soon. I'm probably one of the Hollywood leftists types you disdain, with her head up her butt. Ya know what? My insides are all pink and pretty. How about yours?

posted May 09, 2003 05:26 PM              

That's an amazing quote, to wit: "There are millions and millions of people who consider Americans to be terrorists." Would you care to give us your proof of this?

You know, you can't be loved by everyone and no matter what you do, there will be critics and those who disagree. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. The USA is a pretty mellow country when you think about it. Just don't mess with us. We are a Cancer nation with a Cancer President. Ever try to hurt the child of a Mom with lots of Cancer (or almost any Mom)? You'll understand if you ever did. Virginia, the state I live in, has this motto: "DON'T TREAD ON ME!"

Maria

posted May 09, 2003 06:28 PM            

I think we're a wonderful country, we are afforded many freedoms here.

I think Canada is a pretty mellow country (they're even ready to decriminalize pot, LOL!)...I'm not sure we are. But again, criticizing some of our government's decisions and policies does NOT mean I don't love the US.

I should never have entered this conversation! Politics and religion, it's very difficult for any of us to be academic and objective, our passions are too strong!

So I will respectfully wish you all well and bow out!

posted May 09, 2003 07:24 PM              

On Palestinian Liberation...

The Camp David Accords... anyone remember?

Once we gave Arafat significance with recognition he spit in the face of the US by refuting any progess and running back to Palestine and calling on a second intifadah!!!

It's good he's been disinvolved

Right now the US have managed to free and soon liberalize the MOST PIVITOL country in the MIddle East. With our military muscle there we can not only strong arm Israel to the peace table but also the Islamic radicals. The ducks are falling into a line...

Once the Middle East starts the process of liberalization...

Economies will grow, wealth will surmount,

Schools will be built so REAL education will occur,

No longer will education be by narrow religious terms only,

Once educated and prospering THEN terrorism will BE GONE!!!

posted May 09, 2003 10:20 PM              

Thanks trillian...lovely to meet you too

Love
Jakie

posted May 09, 2003 10:34 PM              

I understand what Trillian is saying,and I agree whit her...we may disagree with a person, a friend, someone from our own family and still love this person...
The same can happens with our own country.

I received this e-mail a while ago, and even if I do not agree with all the text, I'm posting here just to show what a loooooot of people around the world are thinking about the USA NOW...

quote:

---

Mr President:

I am a writer from a poor nation, a country which has already been on your black list. Millions of Mozambicans wondered what evil they had ever done to you.

We were small and poor: what threat could we represent ? Our weapon of mass destruction was, after all, targeted upon ourselves: it was famine and poverty.

Some of us found it weird the criteria which led to our name being exposed while other nations were gaining from your sympathy. For instance, our neighbor - South Africa with their apartheid - blatantly violating human rights.

For decades we were victims of that regime's aggression. But the apartheid regime was worthy of a more lenient attitude called the "positive involvement". The ANC was in your black list as well, as a "terrorist organization"! A weird criteria which years later led to the Taliban and Bin Laden to be called as "freedom fighters" by US strategists.

Well I - a poor writer from a poor country - had a dream. As Martin Luther King once had: that America was a country of all Americans. Well I dreamed that I was not a man but a country. A country that couldn't sleep because it lived terrified by terrible facts. And that terror made it proclaim a demand. A demand to you Dear President. And I demanded the United States of America to proceed to the destruction of their weapon of mass destruction.

Because of the terrible dangers I demanded more: that UN inspectors would be sent to your country. What terrible dangers was I afraid of? What did I fear from your country? Unfortunately it wasn't a dream. Facts were the reason for my fears. The list is so big that I will just name a few:

- The United States is the only nation in the world that has dropped atomic bombs on another nation;

- Your country is the only nation to have been condemned for “illegitimate use of force” by the International Court of Justice;

- American forces have trained and armed the most extremist Islamic fundamentalists (including the terrorist Bin Laden) under the pretext of bringing down the Russian invaders of Afghanistan;

- Saddam Hussein's regime was being supported by the USA while committing the worst atrocities against Iraqis (including the gassing of kurds in 1988);

- Like so many other legitimate leaders, the African Patrice Lumumba was assassinated with the help of the CIA. After being captured, tortured and shot in the head, his body was dissolved in hydrochloric acid;

- Like so many other puppet leaders, Mobutu Seseseko was brought to power by your agents and granted special US espionage facilities: the CIA headquarters in Zaire became the largest in Africa. The brutal dictatorship of this man was totally ignored by the USA until he stopped being useful any more, in 1992;

- The invasion of East Timor by the Indonesian military received the compliance of the USA. When the atrocities were discovered, the Clinton Administration’s response was “the matter is the responsibility of the Indonesian government and we do not wish to detract from that responsibility”;

- Your country has harboured criminals like Emmanuel Constant, one of the most bloodthirsty leaders of Tahiti, whose para-military forces massacred thousands of innocent people. Constant was tried in his absence and the new authorities requested his extradition. The American government denied that request;

- In August 1998, the United States Air Force bombed a factory making medicines in Sudan called Al-Shifa. A mistake? No, it was in retaliation for the Nairobi and Dar-es-Saalam bombing attacks;

- In December 1987, the United States were the only country (along with Israel) to vote against a motion condemning international terrorism. Still, the motion was accepted with the favorable vote of 153 countries;

- In 1953, the CIA helped to prepare a coup d’état against Iran subsequent to which thousands of Tudeh communists were massacred. The list of CIA-provoked coups is literally as long as your arm:

- Since the Second World War, the USA have bombed: China (1945-46), Korea and China (1950-53), Guatemala (1954), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-1961), Guatemala (1960), Congo (1964), Peru (1965), Laos (1961-1973), Vietnam (1961-1973), Cambodia (1969-1970), Guatemala (1967-1973), Grenada (1983), Lebanon (1983-1984), Libya (1986), El Salvador (1980), Nicaragua (1980), Iran (1987), Panama (1989), Iraq (1990-2001),Somalia (1993), Bosnia (1994-95), Sudan (1998), Afghanistan (1998), Yugoslavia (1999);

- Biological and chemical terrorism was carried out by the USA: the orange agent in Vietnam, a plague virus in Cuba which for years devastated the pig production there;

- The Wall Street Journal published a report announcing that 500,000 Vietnamese children had been born deformed as a consequence of chemical warfare by North-American forces.

I woke up from the nightmare of that dream to the nightmare of reality. The war you decided to start may get a dictator away from us. But we will all become poorer. We will be facing bigger problems in our already volatile economies and we will have less hope in a future governed by righthood and moral. We will have less faith in the power of the United Nations and the international law. We will be more lonely and helpless.

Mr President:

We worried about the evils of the Saddam Hussein regime which were certainly very real and we shall rid ourselves of Saddam. But we shall continue to be the prisoners of the logic of war and arrogance. I do not want my children’s lives (nor their children’s) to be dominated by the spectre of fear. Nor for them to think that, in order to live in peace, they have to build themselves a fortress. Nor that they can only be safe by spending a fortune on arms. Just as your own country spends 270,000,000,000 (two hundred and seventy billion) dollars a year maintaining its arsenal of war. You know very well what an amount of money like that could do to change the wretched plight of millions of human beings.

The American bishop, Monsignor Robert Bowan, wrote to you at the end of last year in a letter entitled “Why does the world hate the USA?”

The bishop of the Catholic Church in Florida is an ex-combatant from the Vietnam War. He knows what war is like and he wrote:

“You claim that the USA is the target of terrorism because we defend democracy, freedom and human rights. How absurd, Mr President! We are the target of terrorism because, in a major part of the world, our government has defended dictatorship, slavery and human exploitation. We are targets for terrorists because we are hated. And we are hated because our government did hateful things.

In how many countries have agents of our country deposed popularly elected leaders and substituted them with military dictators, puppets willing to sell their own people to the multinational corporations of America?”

The bishop concluded:

“The people of Canada enjoy democracy, freedom and human rights, just like the people of Norway and Sweden. Have you ever heard of attacks on Canadian, Norwegian or Swedish embassies? We are hated not because we practise democracy, freedom and human rights. We are hated because our government denies these things to third World countries, whose natural resources are coveted by our multinationals.”

Mr President , we would be so happy if you have signed the Kyoto Convention to arrest the effects of global warming. We would be so happy to have seen you in Durban at the International Conference on Racism.

Yet, don't worry Mr. President. We, the small nations of this world, do not intend to demand your resignation for the support provided to all those dictators. The larger menace lying over America is not the weaponry of the rest of the world. It's the lies which have been built in the heads of your own citizens.

The danger was not the regime of Saddam, nor any other regime. But the sense of superiority which seems to inspire your government. Your biggest enemy is not on the outside. It is within the USA. That war can only be won by the Americans themselves.

I would like to celebrate the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. And celebrate it with all Americans. But without hypocrisy or that argumentation for the mentally diminished. Because we, dear President Bush, the people of the smaller countries, we have a "weapon of mass construction": the ability to think.

MIA COUTO -Mozambique -03-27- 2003

---

Well...In my e-mail box, I find almost everyday other e-mails against the USA gov...and this is really sad, at least for me that always loved your country as I love mine...

Jakie

"I may disapprove what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire

posted May 10, 2003 01:00 AM            

Let's just say I doubt the authenticity of
MIA COUTO, purportedly from Mozambique. There is too much factual error in this rant to waste time refuting it but here's just one. Patrice Lumumba was not assassinated by the CIA or with CIA assistance.
http://www.newyouth.com/archives/africa/congo/lumumba_assassination_20000401.asp

The United States is not a party to the International Court of Justice and will never be. No external body will ever have jurisdiction over American Citizens, except those Americans who commit crimes in another nation and then, I would expect them to be tried in the courts of that nation.

The United States voted against the UN motion to condemn terrorism because it was aimed at Israel instead of the real terrorists.

The United States refused to ratify the Kyoto Conventions because Global Warming is based on a faulty premise and botched science, fraudulent science in my opinion.
As soon as someone can tell me what the evil population of the earth was doing 25,000 years ago that caused the earth to warm up after the last ice age, I may be more receptive. For that matter, maybe someone will be able to tell me why the earth started cooling in about the year 1300. Maybe they all stopped driving their SUV's and CO2 levels fell? Maybe someone can tell me why the earth is cooler now than it was in 1300 and why there are cycles of heating and cooling resulting in ice ages and numerous times when the earth was so warm, there were no ice caps at the poles at all?
Better yet, don't tell me, tell the so called scientists so they can correct their faulty models.

Lastly, the good Monsignor Bowan should direct his attention to the pedophile priest problem in the Catholic Church and stop wasting the President's time with his nonsense.

You don't really believe all this stuff, do you? Or do you subscribe to the theory that if you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick?

jwhop

posted May 10, 2003 01:08 AM            

Yeah, I remember that Arafat got more than 90% of what he said he wanted at Camp David and then rejected the peace plan. Which only proves that peace isn't what Arafat wants or any of the other terrorists either.

posted May 10, 2003 12:26 PM              

Please take EVERYTHING you read with a shaker full of salt (never mind the grain theory). I know the press very well Trillian. I used to brief the press daily (American and European) and I can tell you this: They all print the "line." Whatever line it is. The French will print that we are terrorists (but never mention their own unsavory interests in Iraq). The British press loyal to the Prime Minister will print that we are great. The left-wing British press will print that we are terrorists.

As far as letters, unless you can authenticate the person and that this person wrote the letter, I'd be careful. It's so easy to be swayed by what we see in print or on TV (no matter what side you're on).

As my father used to say (God rest his soul), "Maria, opinions are like as*holes. Everybody has one."

Trillian, you can disagree with the President's policies. That is what makes us so great. That is why everyone tries to get into our country. How many Americans do you see crossing the water in boats in the middle of the night trying to get OUT of our country? How many Americans run to France claiming they are political prisoners (well except for criminals like Roman Polansky)?

Just remember this, every newspaper, tv news show, radio news show and political web site rarely, if ever, think for themselves. They are handed the line and they go along with it, to save their jobs. Read the book "The Boys on the Bus," about the reporters who follow American Presidential campaigns. It's pretty interesting. Also realize that this happens in each country. What gets publicized is the politically correct information of the moment for that government.

And I reiterate, just because a decision is not considered popular, doesn't make it wrong. Lincoln starting the Civil War wasn't popular but it was the right thing to do.

Have a great weekend!

posted May 10, 2003 01:54 PM            

A better read about the campaign trail might be Hunter Thompson's...LOL...teasing, just throwing a little levity into the mix here.

I said I was gonna bow out, and yet here I am, so you see? You can't believe me either.

But I do like reading these threads, both sides actually, so long as both sides are treated with respect, which they largely have been.
Jakie, that article was very interesting, do you know where it was printed? If not perhaps I'll do a little searching on the web and see if we can find out...

There's an amazing article by Gore Vidal that appeared in London's _The Observer_ that alleges our government's complicity in September 11th, I think there were excerpts on their webpage, if you're interested. Now, before you jump down my throat, I'm only throwing it out there for anyone interested! If you hate Gore Vidal or his message, that's fine...I found the article fascinating and compelling. I wish I could print it here for you, but it's terribly long.

OK, hope that didn't get anyone's panties in an uproar. It's a rainy Saturday and I'm gonna go clean, or get a pizza, or somethin'...enjoy your weekend.

posted May 11, 2003 12:30 AM            

Sure, the President organized and orchestrated 9/11. He must have been responsible for the 4 other direct attacks against the US too. The bombing of the WTC in 1993, the attacks against 2 US embassies in Africa and the bombing of the USS Cole. Right! Osama and his merry little band of murderous terrorist thugs are on the US payroll.

God, give me a break and tell Vidal to put a sock in it before everyone realizes what an idiot he is. Unless he's offering proof to support his allegations. I mean proof, real proof, not rumor, innuendo, gossip, speculation, extrapolation and insinuations.
Well, did he offer proof, proof like taped conversations, transcripts of al Qaida prisoner interrogations, confessions of others implicated in the bombing? You would think Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman, Akman Ajjaj and Ramzi Yousef would have raised the issue at their trials for bombing the WTC in 1993. Seems to be the perfect defense---I'm on the American payroll and was just following orders. Neither did the so called shoe bomber or the terrorist currently on trial for being part of the terrorist group which bombed the WTC on 9/11. If Gore is right, why didn't they raise the issue. It's BS, of course.

posted May 11, 2003 02:42 PM            

This is dedicated to all the conspiracy lovers on the site and unlike the President's alleged 9/11 politically inspired conspiracy theory, this one has the benefit of having lots of dots to connect. All these people are real characters, they're all dead and they're all FOB's, Friends Of Bill---Clinton, that is or closely associated with his administrations in Arkansas or Washington.

Statically, the odds are impossibly high that so many Friends of Bill would depart this mortal plain under mysterious circumstances. In fact, being a Friend of Bill is the single most dangerous pastime on the planet. The odds of dying as a result of that association are far higher than dying in the most dangerous occupations or personal pursuits on earth. Higher than for a soldier, higher than a police or firefighter job, higher than a race car driver, miner, skydiver, diver, explosives demolition expert---well you get the picture.

Some might argue that being a Friend of Bill drives one over the edge but whichever way you want to cut it, Friends of Bill are certainly a suicide committing bunch.
http://members.tripod.com/~rcjustice/pres.html

"Dead Men Don't Talk"

The following is a list of dead people connected with Bill Clinton:

James McDougal
Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney
A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

Vince Foster
Former White House counselor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown
Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investi-gation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser
Major players in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

Paul Tulley
Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey
Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks
Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch
Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson
Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson
Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in May 1994 was found dead in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton
Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh
Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin
Accountant sub-contractor for the CIA related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman
Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober
Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro
Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher
Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker
Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993 Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise
Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner
Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard
Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal
Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr.
Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a utility pole.

Stanley Huggins
Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report was never released.

Hershell Friday
Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry
Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. Controversial case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING SIX PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

Keith Coney Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck July, 1988.

Keith McMaskle Died, stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

James Milan Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural causes.

Jordan Kettleson Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

See what I mean? Enjoy

jwhop