posted April 22, 2004 02:00 PM            

SHANGHAI, (AFP) - China has stepped control of the Internet in its largest city Shanghai with the installation of video surveillance equipment and software in public places.

The directive from the Shanghai Culture, Radio, Film and TV Administration was designed to prevent the surfing of banned websites and to stop people under 16 from entering Internet bars, the Shanghai Daily said.

Authorities have already installed video cameras in every Internet cafe in the city so officials can keep track of youngsters' movements, the newspaper said.

The yet-to-be installed software will force users to input personal identification data to log on, while a supervisory centre will monitor surfing and check whether a cafe was illegally operating at night, it said.

Foreigners will have to input their passport number.

"The software, which cost seven million yuan (850,000 dollars) to develop, can help supervise more than 110,000 computers at the city's 1,325 Internet bars and spot illegal activities immediately," the paper quoted project director Yu Wenchang as saying.

The measures are part of a six-month campaign by municipal authorities, which began this month, to crackdown on Internet bars.

Fifty-seven net bars have been punished or shut down in the city so far.

There are roughly 70 million Internet users in China, putting the world's most populous nation second behind the United States in terms of people online.

The Internet explosion is both a blessing and a curse for the Chinese authorities, who want people to be more tech-savvy without absorbing too many foreign ideas or spreading anti-government messages.

Internet users are frequently jailed for posting articles critical of the government.

Talk about Big Brother...

So please, someone tell me again why they think communism is good?

posted April 22, 2004 08:05 PM              

"picture it" des moines iowa; february 2004

no one has commented on this. the media gave it scant coverage even here in iowa's heartland, but a handful of students, whose profiles read like mother teresa's, received these subpoenas after attending a peace forum at drake university

our conservative leadership must have figured no one was watching, but thankfully, enough true patriots protested that the feds withdrew them, along with the gag order they had placed on the whole university

"peace officers" (cops) had been formally invited to the forum, but preferred to sneak in as spies

conservatives especially ought to have been up in arms about these subpoenas...after all, aren't they the ones who want the government off our backs?

the "patriot" act now makes anyone who does not raise their right arm to bush subject to who-knows-what* as "terrorists"

*you bushies have ignored the plight of maher ahar, the canadian citizen our government arrested at the new york airport and sent to syria to be tortured for nearly a year

it is convenient, i suppose, how we can then say WE do not torture anyone...we just ship folks off to syria to do the job. search for his story and read it and

never mind...you won't read it...you will just close your eyes to it, like always...too busy accusing the liberals of "changing subjects"

{{{(O.o)*}}}

but while you are doing that, your own rights are being eroded as well. you quote niemoller, and then ignore what the feds are wrongfully doing to "those liberals"

who will protect you when these neo-conservative religious fanatics have their way with you?

this is not communist china here, or middle eastern fundamentalism, this is america, and this is not the american way! we all need to unite in stopping bush from forsaking traditional conservative values as well as basic humanitarian decency the rest of the world recognizes

posted April 22, 2004 09:40 PM            

"The peace activists' conference and nonviolence training session - held at Drake after police and the media were notified - was called "Stop the Occupation! Bring the Iowa Guard Home!" The next day, activists went to the Iowa National Guard headquarters at Camp Dodge, where 12 people were arrested for trespassing."

And this

"The subpoena also orders the university to divulge all records relating to the local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild,
a New York-based legal activist organization that sponsored the forum.
The group, once targeted for alleged ties to communism in the 1950s,
announced Friday that it would ask a federal court to quash the subpoena tomorrow."

and this

"Those served subpoenas include the leader of the Catholic Peace Ministry, the former coordinator of the Iowa Peace Network, a member of the Catholic Worker House, and an antiwar activist who visited Iraq in 2002."

The Justice Dept. just fired a shot over the bow of those who think they can shut down a military installation, peaceful protest or not. The US is in a war. It seems entirely reasonable to me to find out about the composition, aims and goals of the group which organized the so called "peace forum". Those subpoenas were issued after the meeting, after the trespass and after one of the "protesters struck a police officer in the performance of his duty---which was to remove them from the premises.

By the way Raine, no one knocked down or kicked in any doors. The subpoenas were issued by a court---just like the 4th Amendment requires.

What proof do you have that Maher Ahar was tortured by Syrian officials? Maher Ahar is a Syrian citizen. Why should he not be deported to Syria?

You seem to have a habit of placing the most radical construction possible on every event you comment on. Do you really think you're helping your cause?

jwhop

posted April 22, 2004 10:29 PM              

well, looking through the lens of "the right" naturally the things you mentioned would come into focus. i knew of them when i wrote, but in fact had dismissed them as so much rubbish, not worthy of comment. but, then, i cannot blame you, after all, you were not there to discern the truth of it all

it is simply not the american way to harass those who are, after all, peace seekers

well, i guess that is not quite true...it apparently is the american way, as i recall mccarthyism from the '50s [recycling today, as evidenced in this post] that destroyed the careers of so many innocent people. that happened to a personal friend of mine, who is the most peaceful human you can imagine, a bleeding heart if you will, one who is always there whenever anyone needs help

in fact, that is how we met, when we needed help years ago. he was there; conservatives were not. they were busy making judgments

this is my personal experience, not conjecture or fabrication, and it is universal enough to have given them a reputation like that of the priests and levites, passing by on the other side of the road, while the "liberal" samaritan stops to help

and why should it matter that one of them had enough conscience to go all the way to iraq to try to help make peace? there is no law against that, and who is seeking to place "the most radical construction possible on every event you comment on?"

the kettle? note the difference in the way the same idea is contaminated and made to be such an inherently ugly thing--oh, he actually went to iraq! oh, horrors! he must be one of those pinko, commie liberals that hide under any ol' rock that we must ferret out with wiretaps and other spyware

were you at all impressed with their profiles, really? i was, which is the reason i have supported them, and others whom i know personally to be above reproach

that is why i believe mahar arar's personal testimony

conservatives can't be all blamed, though, for this...rush limbaugh has robbed you of seeing the beauty in "liberals" by stamping the word with his sinister interpretation [sinister--from the left; hm...maybe he is a liberal trapped in the body of a conservative?]

liberal: "not limited to or by traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes or dogmas; free from bigotry. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded

the ones i know personally are some of the most beautiful people on the planet, but rush has denied you that vision. he filters everything through his slick talk and his filling of the need of shallow people to be able to laugh at others and in general bully the people who cannot speak for themselves. [if they try, rush snaps off the mike, in case you hadn't been aware of that in your zeal to laugh along]

mahar arar was born in syria, but he was a canadian citizen, having lived in canada since he moved there with his family when he was 17. he had grown up there and was married, the father of two small children, and was as normal as we are

why should that force him back to syria for any reason, particularly to be tortured? they did not find anything about him in the long run, even though they managed to extract false confessions...what would it take to extract a confession "i am a liberal" from you, hm?

awhop, does even the possibility that such a thing could happen bother you at all? you dismiss it so easily, but is that the golden rule? would you want someone to dismiss your story? are you dismissing my story now? if so, you are not alone, you have all of those folks who worship at the radio when rush is on. you will always have a support group there, i am afraid

now if you'll excuse me, i have to go bind up some wounds

posted April 22, 2004 11:37 PM            

Trespassing is not to be dismissed as rubbish and especially when the trespass occurs on a military base during time of war.

You didn't mention the items I posted because it didn't help your position for people to know a Marxist group---The National Lawyers Guild was involved with the protest, or that the protesters were breaking the law or that one of them committed battery on a police officer.

I have a hot flash for you Raine, there is nothing of the Good Samaritan in the Marxist dominated anti-war movement. In as much as you lack any sympathy and compassion for the million or more Muslims Saddam killed, have no compassion for those he buried in mass graves, more than 300,000 at last count, have no compassion or sympathy for the men, women and children tortured in his prisons and/or put through a shredder, have no sympathy or compassion for the women raped by his regime and sometimes by his sons and your lack of compassion and sympathy would have left Saddam in power to continue his murder, rape and torture, you and those like you are supreme hypocrites.

In view of the fact you save your bilge and bile for the United States and have not one word of protest against the Communist regimes around the world who are systematically starving and murdering their citizens in the present, I'll call that hypocrisy II.

You've attempted at every turn to wrap yourself in the mantle of evolved enlightenment, spiritually superior but I don't see that in you at all. Nor will I ever see the Good Samaritan, spiritual superiority or evolved enlightenment in any who turn their backs on those crying out for help from thugs, murders and oppressors and I most certainly do not see it in those who attempt to prevent the very help those people desperately need.

jwhop

posted April 23, 2004 01:07 AM              

this recycled nationalistic moral superiority, "knowing" that america is so right and every other country is so wrong, reminds me of those who enthusiastically saluted the "right" people in the last century with their arms upraised

if a person perceives something in our land that needs fixing, they are demonized with "how dare you say that about the good ol' US of A? love it or leave it" well, i dare say there are things that need fixing and that does not make me a traitor or a terrorist, or even someone who doesn't care, as you say so wrongly

i keep a photo right here beside me as we "speak" BECAUSE i care--of a soldier being hugged by one of the liberated holocaust survivors, not so i can tell myself i am better than other people, but to maintain my humanity and keep vigilance in our own country so that it happens NEVER AGAIN

i am worried because it started with the little seeds, seeds that i see here, now

attacking homosexuals, saying things like the poor are lazy, stirring up hatred of those who do not live by the "right" moral code...blaming them furreigners for all the problems and in short, promoting selfish hoarding of more than is needed and blaming the victims of a rigged system for having to pay taxes--the curse of the middle class

if ordinary citizens would be more responsible about maintaining those things that do need fixing, then perhaps those of us who "see" them would not have to go to such extremes to get others to see things enough to fix them together

you deny that anything is wrong here at home, while things deteriorate to where we have well over 30,000 new jobs just to deal with helping those who HAVE no jobs now, but it looks good in the statistics

are you okay about thousands of children without health care here in the good ol' US of A? i am not. it bothers me. i try to level the playing field a bit, but the haves are well invested in maintaining it and slanting it ever more

you remind me of my kids when they used to complain that i would correct them, but not the other kids. i did not rule other households, but i was responsiblie for what went on under my roof, just as we are responsible for what goes on under our flag

and i am sickened at some of the things that go on beneath our flag--and i refer to some of the most outrageous mockeries by those who wrap themselves in it, i.e., the haves who gloat in their having, not realizing it can all be taken away in a heartbeat

of course there are communist threats, fascist threats, imperialistic threats, and all the rest, but just how is the world a better place for your rantings about it?

you are talking to a matriot here who taught school in a fourth-world country and knows the difference between the haves and the have-nots, and loves this country far beyond what the average bear who takes our vast wealth for granted, complaining all the while about taxes. since soulless corporations do not pay their fair share, we have to blame someone...blame the poor, they are more visible...that's what they are there for...and the foreign-born...what are they doing in OUR country, anyway? guess the native american population might have something to say about that...

question: did you read anything i wrote? or did you just skim over it, thinking how you would counter it all with your own arguments?

again i ask, come up with one burning issue that you would really like "liberals" to "see" and i will do my best to "get it"

and let's see where that leads...fair enuf?

posted April 23, 2004 01:44 AM            

"Martin Niemöller had been a World War I hero as a German naval lieutenant and U-boat commander. He was ordained as a Lutheran pastor in 1924. One of the earliest Protestant critics of Nazism, he and a few brave Lutherans formed a resistance movement called the "Confessional Church" of about 3,000 pastors. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, author of The Cost of Discipleship, came into contact with Niemöller when he joined the "Pastor's Emergency League," which was formed under Niemöller."

"As the methods of oppression by the Nazis grew worse, the resistance movement justified previously unimagined types of disobedience. For Niemöller and the resistance, the plan to assassinate a tyrant was a matter of obedience to God."
http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0006_5._Martin_Niemller.html

Um, yeah, that seems like a violent resistence to me. Did you think his words were about some other kind of action? But you say you've quoted him, too. Hmmm ... interesting.

Yeah, if you were talking about me, then, when have I "ignore(d) what the feds are wrongfully doing to "those liberals"? Heck, when have I referred to anyone as "those liberals"? I really don't understand how you come up with your assumptions. Really, it's baffling. I notice that Harpyr and jwhop have had alot of disagreements/discussions ... forgive me for making an assumption guys but I think Harpyr could be considered a liberal and jwhop could be considered a conservative. And guess what? I think they have both made valid points on many issues, and I have agreed with both of them at different times. Sorry to disappoint you, raine6, but your accusatory and melodramatic tone isn't really making a grand point with me. Oh, by the way, I don't think any "neo-conservative religious fanatics" are going to get very far or have their way with anyone because I believe we (as in America and, yes, even the world) are already protected. Faith ... giving thanks as if you had already received ... it's always darkest just before dawn ...

***

jwhop, thanks for sharing. Clear and to the point.

posted April 23, 2004 01:59 AM              

i think i know where the term "bleeding-heart liberal" comes from...stone hearts cannot bleed. really, how can someone criticize those who care about others and do what they can to make the planet a better place?

posted April 23, 2004 02:17 AM            

I'll ask you the same question then, even though I notice you don't really answer any questions I ask ...
"really, how can someone criticize those who care about others and do what they can to make the planet a better place?"

Lots of people here have gotten their points across to me loud and clear ... and, since I know you make a huge issue out of it, they have been liberals and conservatives, and even some like me who hover around the middle.

Most of the "points" I've seen you try to "get" across are just emotionally charged platitudes. I really don't think it's for lack of trying that some folk don't really "get" what you are trying to say. And you are saying we are blind and deaf because of that? I'm sad to say that doesn't surprise me.

posted April 23, 2004 02:23 AM            

I really don't see how people think Communism is a good thing, unless they've been brought up to believe that it is and have accepted it (which I don't think many people do accept it but that's just an opinion).

It almost seems like a good deterrant for crime, etc. until you read this part:

"The Internet explosion is both a blessing and a curse for the Chinese authorities, who want people to be more tech-savvy without absorbing too many foreign ideas or spreading anti-government messages.
Internet users are frequently jailed for posting articles critical of the government."

I say almost because, even before I read that last part, I still felt creeped out by it. It'd be good to be able to track down child-offenders, for example, via the internet ... but wouldn't people find a way to lie about it or get around it? I dunno', it just seems so wrong.

posted April 23, 2004 03:21 AM            

"One thing to have 'The art of Expression' another thing is to have 'The art of Listening'!"

I'm sorry,but I will come to Raine6's defence,because I am not so moved by the words that Raine6 uses to be "blinded" from the fact that Raine6(male,female,I don't know who you are)
does wares his/her bleeding heart on a sleeve,thus I can appreciate!

I think that sometimes we need to take a step back and look at the "big picture" of what Raine6 is trying to state,instead of looking at the "fine line details" of the words that Raine6 uses.That's "hairsplitting",don't you think?

Now if you excuse me,I got to mop up the blood!

Poor,poor Raine6!

posted April 23, 2004 09:04 AM              

then i come here and see you actually have listened to what i have been trying unsuccessfully to get across

thanks for the warm validation and the cleanup job

posted April 23, 2004 02:05 PM            

Note, I haven't seen anyone else here refer to themselves as being attacked or expressing feelings of victimization.

BTW, that's what I think was meant by all when we've referred to emotionally charged arguments ... full of emotion. I don't think anybody is saying to not have emotions ... just to have some facts and/or logical, reasonable arguments at your side to back up those emotions/opinions. When trying to help others understand your points, it is really effective to reach out to the mind as well as the heart because lots of people try to balance those two important aspects.

As for the arts, I think everyone here has the ability to express themselves clearly if they make the effort because if they didn't, then this forum wouldn't be the great place it is. As for listening, I agree ... but it's necessary to listen to everything someone is trying to say instead of focusing just on the things that you don't like. Hearing is not the same as listening. I've tried listening to raine6 and, to paraphrase from that great old album, The Chr*nic, she is talking loud as all heck but she isn't saying anything. (I paraphrase because of the profanity ... also I hope the title of the album isn't offensive but just in case it is I ommitted one of the letters.) That is just my opinion and I understand that.
I've tried to express some arguably reasonable points and ask some fairly insightful questions but those have remained entirely ignored. Instead, I get all this talk about the right and the left and the hawks and the doves and a spew of emotions without any logical support behind them ... in other words, just opinions and no facts. The few facts that have been presented have been entirely one-sided when in reality there were many other issues that could be argued about those facts, eg, the kent state issue.

I've responded to a number of posts that have been full of emotion but were actually supported as well. Whether or not I agree/d with them is an entirely different story, but I think, in the end, it is the discussion and the points that are being discussed that are important ... assuming one is actually sharing opinions that are supported, in some way, by more than other opinions. I hope that makes some sense.

Not that it may matter to some, but I think there is a big difference between having a bleeding heart and wearing that bleeding heart on your sleeve for all to see and attempt to gain sympathy for it. It's a manipulative manner of expression, appealing only to the hearts of people especially about issues that are already wrought with emotions ... like some would argue that the Bush adminstration did to mislead this country into a war ...

posted April 23, 2004 02:46 PM            

In an ideal world I wish our government wouldn't deal with China, I think that China is the one who seeks empire, and are just patiently biding their time, trying to keep on our good side so that our consumerism can fuel their economy enough to get them to the point where they can truly take us on. But I know it's never as simple as we'd like it to be.

I would like anyone who promotes communism and socialism to take a good look at China and then tell me again why it's a good feasible political system.

posted April 23, 2004 02:49 PM            

...and

You said something that really exemplifies why I put that post up about debate:

quote:

---

The words someone uses are very important, particularly through writing, because that's the only way the reader can try to understand what the writer is trying to say ... and those words create a tone, have meaning in context, and help define the thoughts that that writer is trying to express.

---

Well put, thx

posted April 23, 2004 03:28 PM            

Yeah, I couldn't help finding the "bleeding heart" thing an ironic twist.
I'm glad that my comments about writing ring true to you, as well, because I also think they support debate. I just don't see another way to communicate clearly through the written word without choosing your words carefully. No one is asking for an essay, dissertation, speech, or anything like that. And yes, everyone makes mistakes and gets riled up at times, but usually the effort is somewhat visible.

posted April 23, 2004 05:10 PM            

quote:

---

..you lack any sympathy and compassion for the million or more Muslims Saddam killed, have no compassion for those he buried in mass graves, more than 300,000 at last count, have no compassion or sympathy for the men, women and children tortured in his prisons and/or put through a shredder, have no sympathy or compassion for the women raped by his regime and sometimes by his sons and your lack of compassion and sympathy would have left Saddam in power to continue his murder, rape and torture, you and those like you are supreme hypocrites.

---

That is a rather emotion-filled diatribe which states that jwhop knows exactly the feelings of raine6. All any of us here know of one another is what we reveal through our words. Nowhere have I observed raine stating an indifference to this suffering. Therefore it is not fare to frame it as fact, as jwhop did.

As for the criticisms of communism, the could just as easily be criticisms of totalitarianism. It seems apparent that communism as we've seen in the large scale lends itself to a decent into facism. But let us not delude ourselves into thinking we ourselves are immune to the same problem.

quote:

---

totalitarian 1. noting or pertaining to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that excercizes dictatorial control over many aspects of life. 2. exercizing control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; autoritarian; autocratic

---

posted April 23, 2004 05:45 PM            

I "TOTAL LY AGREE"!100%

Eleanore! I wasn't refering you as being the "bleeding heart",I gave that analysis to Raine6.

NO,but if want me to refer you as ANYTHING,I would say that your a very smart person,BUT on the whole and joint of your posts,I feel that you take joy in the adherence of flip/floping to one side to the next depending on which side is winning, like France!

NOW, if you would like me to elaborate so much further and you and I can be more direct and honest and to "brush up" on our writing abilities(rules or no rules,required)and more of us both to recieve the FULL intensity of a more "emotionally charged" arguement...

OOOOOHHHH! I'll be much obliged!

posted April 23, 2004 07:44 PM            

I don't have to get into Raine's head to know what Raine feels. I've read what Raine says. I can and do draw inferences from what Raine says AND also what Raine doesn't say, others too.

What Raine talks about is sympathy for the innocent women and children killed in the Iraq war and those are relatively few and wholly unintentionally. They are surely far fewer than the average of more than 30,000 per year that Saddam killed over 30 years.

What Raine never expresses is the sorrow over the 1,000,000 Saddam tortured, gassed and murdered over his 30 year reign of terror.

Nor does Raine express any joy or happiness over the fact that on average, Saddam won't kill another 30,000 this year, nor do the other leftists.

Lastly, if Raine and the other leftists had their way, Saddam and his insane sons would still be in power in Iraq, still torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis, which seems better to leftists than setting them free from Saddam.

The best friends Saddam had on earth are the leftists of the world who were willing to look the other way while he oppressed and murdered his people.

I absolutely reject your attempt to compare the United Stated with totalitarian regimes around the world, past and present.

Protesting is not against the law in the United States. Breaking existing law while protesting has always been against the law and still is, as it should be.

posted April 23, 2004 08:05 PM            

I don't really flip/flop on issues based on who's "winning" or any nonsense like that. Perhaps I stated it elsewhere, but I don't think this is a place to compete and try to "win" anything. To me, it's a place to share and discuss and, possibly debate and argue over points and issues. I can't take joy in something I don't do. I do take comments, points, issues, etc. on a relatively individual basis which revolves around my personal beliefs. My beliefs are my own and I happen to agree with some and disagree with others regardless of group distinctions. However, and I ask this sincerely, do you honestly see this website as a place to compete and try to prove yourself right and/or prove others wrong?

I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand what you meant by the last portion of your post.

*****

Harpyr
I agree that perhaps jwhop's words were harsh. I thought it was an exaggeration based on the same tactics that raine6 employs when she (I think she) makes assumptions about what others say. jwhop just didn't sugar it up or try to appear like some kind of highly evolved person when he wrote it.

As for totalitarianism, I think it's a possibility in almost any country really. I don't think we've come that far here in the US, but I can understand your concerns over freedom of expression and speech and protest. I think as long as you obey the laws while you do these things then you should be ok. I am aware, though, that this isn't always the case and it disturbs me deeply as well. I do think that our freedoms, in the end, will remain intact probably thanks to people like you who try to make a positive difference and also to people within the system that want to uphold the original values our country was founded on.

posted April 23, 2004 08:11 PM            

I can't stand for people to complain about these kind of things and yet(on the same token) it's ok for others(that they themselves might favor)to do the same exact thing "...and that's ok!",then you try to tell me about hypocacy?

posted April 23, 2004 08:24 PM            

quote:

---

However, and I ask this sincerely, do you honestly see this website as a place to compete and try to prove yourself right and/or prove others wrong?

---

Why don't you ask JW that question,why are you asking me?

...and while your at it,also ask him about why does the arguements(in this forum) tend to lean toward a "right vs. left" thing all the time.