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Author
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Topic: GWB-- religious zealot?
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Aquarian Girl
unregistered
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posted August 18, 2004 10:30 AM
 
quote:
If this were predominantly a Caucasian (or whatever your race might be) message board would you find it funny to make racist jokes? Of course not. I don't suppose you (or anyone else here) would. Do you see my point?
Oh please. That is absolutely not the same thing and whether you found it funny or not, IT WAS A JOKE. Anyway, you posted data that shows 96% of Americans believe in God. Tbe president's actions and statements are never going to satisfy everybody, whether the president is Bush or Clinton or Kerry. But if 96% are satisfied, then yeah, I say tough luck for the other 4%! Take note: I have never said that 4% should not have a "voice" and express their dissatisfaction. Go for it. It's your absolute right. Anyway, this is just my opinion, just like you have yours and we are both entitled to it. IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted August 18, 2004 11:26 AM
It's majority rules. If the majority is not atheist, than non-atheist ideals will be furthered moreso than athiest ones. That's the way representative government works. Why are religious folk supposed to tolerate the beliefs of others (athiests/pagans/etc) yet I'm not seeing that same level of tolerance going the other way. It's my opinion that if a pagan were the President, and was referring to 'the goddess', that those who bemoan references to religion wouldn't care a whit. It seems that Christianity is the red-headed stepchild of the day. And this is coming from a non-religious, non-christian. I actually got into this on another board once, and it was so sickeningly hypocritical I left. They were arguing that Christianity was bad, yet when I posed the question, "if someone came here and attacked your pagan beliefs, you'd be screaming bloody murder", and their argument was "that's different" because they've all had bad experiences w/ Christianity, so it's ok to bash it. I'm not saying that's going on here, just relaying an experience I had with Christian-haters. IP: Logged |
Randall
Webmaster Posts: 4782
From: The Goober Galaxy
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted August 18, 2004 01:29 PM
I used to be an atheist, and I was quite good at making the religious question the very core of their beliefs. As a former atheist, I must say that we would not have been offended by the statement that we are wrong. Atheists have heard it all and are as tough as they come. They don't anger easily and usually laugh at most of the arguments they encounter.  ------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted August 18, 2004 02:01 PM
I'm not a Christian hater, though it may seem that way from my firey posts.If a Pagan were president, it would still be wrong. Government has no place for religion. I am not arguing their right to be Christian. I would fight for that right just as hard as I would fight for the right to be Pagan or Athiest or anything for that matter. Doing away with Christianity isn't my point. I simply want it removed from Government. I posted in Astrology, but not here, that I have a lot of respect for people that are actually Christian people. I have Christian friends... but I would never befriend the kind of Christian I see GWB as. The bible thumping, "this is the only way to go", accept Christ as God or burn for eternity BS kind of Christian. Not that it really matters, but I don't think Christ was god... furthermore, I doubt very seriously that his mother were a virgin. Anyhow, the "Christian family values" are what this president is really pushing (among other things, of course), and I don't have any Christian values. I think you SHOULD have sex before you're married. I don't have a problem with gay couples getting married, and have to laugh at the ridiculousness of anyone who thinks it could lead to marrying their pet. That's just backwards and retarded. He can't help but allow his extreme religiousness affect his decisions as president. He is human. There are stipulations for being president. For example, age and nationality, and so it seems (unspoken) Christianity. I seriously doubt a non-Christian person could get themselves elected in this country because of the extreme religious bias. People actually think being Christian makes them a good person. 96% of Americans believe in god. Would you also argue that 96% of Americans are good honest people. Of course not. Faith does not make a godly man. IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted August 18, 2004 04:06 PM
LS - I wasn't referring to you as a Christian-hater, to be honest I wasn't sure whether you were or not, I was just relating an experience I'd had with some. Interestingly enough, I agree with you on two things: I do not think Jesus was the son of God (in the literal sense), nor do I think that Mary was a virgin. I think those are things that self-righteous men w/ ambitions for power incorporated into Christianity in an effort to further legitimize it. I do believe historically that Jesus existed though. I just don't necessarily believe he was the literal son of God (I was under the impression that he said, "I am the son of God, as we are all children of God"). If that quote is indeed correct, then I don't see how one extrapolates literal son of the higher power out of that. But that's just me. I still wouldn't categorize Bush as an extremist when it comes to religion. Is it just the mention of God that makes you think that? His faith and belief? I don't get it. The reality is that, if the majority of the country is Christian, and our country is based on majority rule, then one is more likely to get a Christian in office. I for one am just happy that they believe in God in one form or another. I wouldn't want an atheist for President anymore than I'd want Pat Roberts. You can't please all the people all of the time, and I just don't think that any minority, regardless of whether it's color, regligion, ideology, whatever, is entitled to dictate how things should be run for the majority. They should have a voice, most definitely, and their concerns are valid, most definitely, but not at the expense of the majority. (There are of course caveats to that, such as measurable discrimination, etc). If the country spontaneously turned 90% fundamental Christian, I would either leave the country, or dedicate my life to trying to sway that back the other way. I wouldn't insist that the majority has no right, which is what it sounds like you are saying, because you don't agree w/ his views (on religion). Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm really not trying to start a fight here... IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Moderator Posts: 518
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted August 18, 2004 04:39 PM
I think she doesn't disagree with his beliefs, she merely doesn't like having to hear all the God speak when he's giving political speeches. Am I right, LS? If I am, than I hear what you are saying. I think you are totally allowed to feel that way. Unfortunately since the ''majority of the population'' is Christian, and this is the way he chooses to speak to the country, that it isn't going to change. I agree with you, I've been doing research on American politics/religion 1602-1800 all day, and it seems we fought many wars between the settlement of Plymouth and the revolutionary war EXPLICITLY to keep Catholosism (religion) out of the government, and even the culture. It was the French that brought it to America when they tried to take over the colonies by invading from Canada, the rest of the country at that time was Episcopalian or Protestant except for a small part of Maryland. Did you know that in 1700, Massachusetts required all Roman Catholic priests to leave the colony or face arrest? Yeah, they were trying to influence the polotical structure at the time...just some stuff I found out and thought I'd share. It has been a constant struggle between religious denominations in this world, and when the leader of a nation poses himself in one faith, it slightly alienates those citizens of another faith whom they are trying to gain trust from. It doesn't have to be this way, but after thousands of years of fighting and dying for their faiths, it's hard for some people to understand anything but what they believe... I'm talking about the world in general here, people, not anyone in particular... IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted August 18, 2004 04:52 PM
No no, Isis... I didn't think you thought that of me. Just wanted to clear it up since I was so Pissy the other day (notice the Capitol P-issy)  you hit the nail on the head when you said I wasn't my usual mellow self. I sure wasn't. But, I'm back to normal now.ghani, That's exactly it. I just get tired of all the "god talk" in speaches and such. I'm glad you understand me  IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted August 18, 2004 06:32 PM
LOL... reading about my Uranus in Scorp squared my Moon... Aside from the Moon... Mercury Conjunct Uranus, Jupiter Opposition Uranus, Saturn Square Uranus , Mars Trine Uranus , Venus Sextile Uranus. quote:
You are a rather excitable person, always looking for ways to bring excitement and change into your life, although you may not be aware that you are doing this. Sometimes the excitement may come from other people who seem to disrupt your life. Often this aspect indicates that at some time when you were quite young, your home life was upset in a way that made you feel unable to depend on others for emotional support. So you have decided not to depend emotionally on anyone and to be free in as many other ways as possible. You don't want to be restricted, and you will rebel against anyone who tries to confine you. You have a strong need to have experiences that are very unusual, so you are attracted to anything new and different. You will even do something just to shock the stuffy people around you. Or you may be fairly conventional yourself but attract friends who are offbeat. You are not very comfortable with traditions, unless it is clear to you that they have some real use. Having to stay in a specific place annoys you, because you want to be free to move about as you want. When you are older, your love relationships will be much freer than usual, because you do not want to be emotionally tied to anyone more than you have to be. When you are upset, you tend to act without thinking, so try not to do anything at all while you are in that mood. Wait until you cool off and can see the situation clearly.
Hehehe... Figured this suited this post quite nicely  IP: Logged |
Alarik
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 08:04 PM
I don't mind that bush is christian. I only mind that he uses god's name so much to trick people. People have been doing it for centuries, invoking god to futther their own agendas which god, if he exists, certainly would want no part of. The organizers of the crusades did it, the medieval church did it, hitler did it, bush is doing it now. I bet one could convince most people to assent to almost anything if I were to tell them enough times that they're serving God by doing so, whether or not it's true. I believe now, and have always believed, because it is fairly obvious, that bush uses god merely as a propaganda tool, in the hopes of pulling the wool over the eyes of those who believe in him. And it's worked. The poor saps believe every obviously insincere, almost smirkingly, mockingly delivered utterance about faith and patriotism, and all the other buzzwords he likes to use to keep people away from his true purpose. I don't know whether his true plans are beneficial or not; deception can mask good intentions, but only rarely. One thing is clear to me (and when people doubt it, I can only think them blind): that bush is a chronic deceiver. Every piece of evidence there is, from his person to testimny about him, speaks to the fact that he has taken GREAT CARE to hide his every intention, to mask his every purpose, to deceive us at every step. If you think I'm wrong, I have one thing to say: I've got a mountain cottage in Florida I'd like to sell you..... IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted August 22, 2004 08:37 PM
Hmmm..marginalizing everyone who disagrees with your opinion by essentially calling them either stupid or ignorant (couldn't tell which you were inferring), or blind...hmmm, yeah, that's a real great way to come across to people. Wouldn't it creep you out if someone came in here and said, "Jesus is Lord and anyone who disagrees with me, well you're just blind or ignorant"... Up till now this has been a great, non-contentious debate. And anyone that doesn't agree with me, I've got beachfront property in Omaha to sell ya   IP: Logged |
Alarik
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 09:05 PM
You're right, it's rude, but a lot in life is unpleasant. throw it right back at me if you like, my answer to your "how would you feel" question is that I'd laugh at anyone who said that to me, because if I *am* stupid, then their saying so won't make me more so, and if I'm not, then their saying so won't make it true, you know? anyway...I do believe that someone would have to be a rather gullible person to not recognize that what I said is true...hell, if you can't read it on his face, read it from the people who have quit his presence in disgust. The fact is, there are many many many stupid people in this world, and I have to consider the possiblity that you may be one of them. It's nothing personal. (note: I am not calling anyone specific stupid, I am only saying that yes, there are a lot of stupid people in the world and no, I can't say for certain that none of them are here. It's not a personal attack, it's a statement of fact) As for polite debate, well, I'm not much for that, really. Or maybe you hadn't noticed? Oh, wait, here, uhh....this post was written by god's will, in the name of patriotism and freedom *smirk*, to protect our children in god's name, under god, with freedom, ahem ahem ahem liberty. In the name of your country, don't be offended. (If you believed GWB was sincere, you'll probably believe me too. Hey, can't hurt to try, right?) IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 09:10 PM
"I do believe that someone would have to be a rather stupid, gullible person to not recognize that what I said is true"Rather presumptuous of you, doncha think? IP: Logged |
Alarik
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 09:16 PM
To be fair, I also have to admit that many people who are fooled (in all ares of life, not just this particular subject) because they simply don't care enough to seek out the truth, and that's fine, some people don't really care whether the president is a liar, and that's ok, if everyone were engrossed in politics there'a lot else that wouldn't get done. The only people who are truly stupid are the ones who look at a subject closely and still cannot see certain things, like the fairly obvious fact that bush has always been, and continues to be, deceitful and insincere. If you deny that, you're as stupid as you would be if you denied that Clinton was a liar. Both have been caught in the act of lying (though I would say that Bush is the more insidious of the two, as everything he does seems to be a lie, and not a desperate get-out-of-trouble or even hide-corruption lie as clinton did, but an oily con-man's lie)IP: Logged |
Alarik
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 09:19 PM
would it be presumptuous of me to say that you'd have to be pretty gullible not to believe that the sun is quite hot?to me, yes, it is *that* obvious. I know it's not a nice or popular statement to make, but who cares? I'll leave the vacuous niceties to others. anyway. I've said what I wantd to say, and you've heard it. that's all i've got for this thread. you can aim your replies at my backside IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted August 22, 2004 10:35 PM
That's one way to get out of a debate IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted August 23, 2004 12:15 AM
I'm right and you're wrong  Nah nah nah I'm taking my Super Ultra Mega Man and going home IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted August 24, 2004 09:39 PM
Hmmm..... I don't know.... I just don't think that Bush ranks up there with the likes of Hitler. I am not so sure he is pushing religion so much so as expressing his right to speak out about these beliefs as he so chooses. We are all free to do the same, why not the president? As long as he is not rolling in the Army tanks to ship off all the "non believers", I am really ok with it. He may be pushing an "agenda" but who doesn't? Not any politician I know. I am primarily concerned when I have no say in how to personally live my own life, but that is me... On a sidebar, I read an interesting article (cannot provide a link at this time but will paraphrase later) stating that new evidence has surfaced indicating that large quantities of biochemical and other weapons were transported from Iraq enmass to Syria shortly before the US invaded. Interesting.... I will have to do some additional research for further details.....Anyway, just my two cents worth... And about being stupid --- if one subscribes to the idea of reincarnation (which many but not all of you do), then we could all be considered "ignorant" at some point or another in our various life cycles. It matters not that we may be ignorant but that we attempt to further our understanding, thereby increasing the clarity of our perceptions.... IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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