posted October 02, 2004 03:41 PM              

I thought for a long time about whether I should reply to this post, but I figured it would be in the best interests of those reading, despite any crass or ill-informed replies I might receive.

JWhop:

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Laff, the construction you put on events is preposterous and wholly unjustified.

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I think some of the constructions you put on events is preposterous and wholly unjustified, as you will see below.

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John Edwards and those like him are the primary reason so many Americans are not covered by health insurance. A rip-off artist of the first water who uses junk science to win cases, junk science he knows is false but is able to sell to juries.

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I challenge you to prove that John Edwards based any case on junk science, or knowingly and willfully misled juries. Show me the proof.

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Because of John Edwards and those like him, physicians are recommending caesarian sections to women, women who have no reason to consent except on the recommendation of their physicians who are in an $ss covering

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Must you use loosely disguised expletives in order to express yourself, JWHop?

You are talking to the wrong person. A Caesarian section saved my mother's life and my own. I may not have been here to speak to you today, or I might have been born with cerebral palsy. I don't see what the heck's wrong with C-section. I love it.

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mode and afraid to be sued. Those jury awards have driven up insurance rates to the point physicians are either giving up

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Insurance rates are being driven up by inflation, and the greed of insurance companies! They would make any excuse not to make a cash payout, justified or not, to their clients whom they are supposed to serve. They'd use any excuse to raise their rates, in the name of "efficiency", for their investors.

I challenge you to prove otherwise.

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without liability insurance. John Edwards is an ambulance chasing shyster. He's also

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I think John Edwards is a wonderful man and I admire the work that he's done as a lawyer. He has stood up for the rights of malpractice victims (and I can tell you right now from experience that malpractice takes place every day in America.) He has shed light on the inadequacy of our medical system and doctors.

If you don't believe people should ever have restitution for their pain and suffering, JWhop, wait until you go into the hospital for an appendectomy and the doctor sows your large intestine to your liver, and see who will want to defend you.

Otherwise, if you think doctors are perfect and without flaws, then substantiate your claims. Your view of the matter is wholly cynical, since you seem to believe we owe insurance companies a living and they aren't really there to insure us since our doctors are perfect and can do no wrong.

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admit Kerry is a liar but you went further and said Bush is a liar. Now Laff, I invite you as I have others who have made that statement to back it up. You are invited to

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I'm getting to that. Wait for my next post!

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Where are you getting your information Laff? My information is that Bush has increased military pay more than 20%,

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Where are you getting *your* information from, JWhop? Bush increased military pay by no more than 4% base pay for the average soldier; and *immediately* after 9-11, he eliminated "turbo pay" that would have granted soldiers $100 a day for every day over 400 days out of every 740 day pay period, and replaced it with a plan that would pay out no more than $33 per day for every day over *420* days over the same pay period.

It even says so on the military sites. If you want more proof, go here:
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/2004bah/blbah.htm

https://www.housing.cni.navy.mil/pcshouse/prnt.cfm?targetloc=ST%20MAWGAN%20JT%20MARITIME%20FAC

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increased education benefits for military

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Yeah, if you're a National Guardsman, they'll train you in a "skilled trade"-- i.e. Welding or Electrician--that way, you can be a lifelong Union Member But, only if you qualify (very poor).

Say, wasn't Bush a Nat'l Guardsman?

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personnel, improved housing and raised
subsidies for military families living off base and expanded health care and job

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As far as subsidies go: He handed a grant directly to the states and said, "Here, do anything you want with this," to "incorporate" children smoothly into new classrooms (something that should be a teacher's job, anyway). The state's can put that money right in their pockets, and make it disappear.

Being stationed off-base is called "living on the economy". The housing only applies to trainees in America or men stationed in Europe and other parts of the world, which they are being quickly withdrawn from. (Sorry, no free ride for families of victims--er, soldiers--stationed in Iraq. They aren't actually living off-base in Iraq.) And there's a wait list!
http://www.korea.army.mil/welcome/housing.htm

On health care: Ooooo, this is too good. Tricare is a menace! The soldiers actually get a worse deal than Medicare recipients and practically any HMO. They have to co-pay from 15-25% co-pay out of their own pockets above and beyond their yearly payment of $320 per person, and that doesn't even count toward medical procedures Tricare refuses to cover.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/healthcare/a/medicalcare.htm

It gets better. The system is a virtual nightmare of red tape and inaccessibility for veterans. They actually have to file for Medicare before they will get Tricare, or a "deduction" of 12% will be taken away from their future care for every year they delay to file.

As for Bush, he *cut* funds for the VA by 3.4%--is that any way to treat the soldiers who bravely served our country?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-11-25-medicare-qa_x.htm
http://www.petitiononline.com/Veterans/petition.html

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training for military personnel. In fact Laff, most military personnel love Bush and

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Yeah, man, feel the love:
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory-status-3-newsID-2399.html
http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/veterans/families.html
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/archive/index.php/t-125031.html

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despise Kerry as Kerry will find out in November.

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The base pay for a soldier of the 2 lowest ranks who has been in the military two years or less is $14,020 a year. This is one more reason why being a soldier might be considered a hardship. Hostile fire pay might be considered an additional $2,700 a year under Bush's proposed legislation. How pathetic. This is hardly more than you'd make at McDonald's flipping burgers.

An official of the highest rank who has been in the Army 6 years or more makes base pay of $31,705 a year. Six years, I'd call that hardship. This is barely more than a rookie teacher makes.

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Tell me Laff, is there a liberal indoctrination center where all liberals are fed their daily dose of poop or is there a cloning factory for liberals I haven't heard about....yet? Is there even

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Well, you can be sure if there was a factory, it would be owned by a conservative.

This is no way to talk sbout your fellow human beings, JWhop. (And, I might add, it is not in the spirit of this forum.)

See next post for more.

posted October 02, 2004 03:53 PM              

JWhop:

Quote:

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Depleted Uranium has been used in US tank rounds and 30mm cannon shells since the 1980s. You've turned what "might" be a valid argument into a loser by suggesting Bush "refused" to recognize the danger from the use of DU rounds. Just for your information, those rounds were used in Desert Storm, Clinton used them in Kosovo and Iraq...Cruise missiles are also tipped with DU or at least some of them. Yet you fail to mention Clinton but bash Bush. In

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I'm a Bush-whacker.

Don't blame me for Clinton! I voted for PEROT!

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any event, the book is still open on the health hazards of using depleted uranium, which is a substance containing only U-238, an alpha emitter, since all the radioactive U-235 has been refined out of the substance....hence depleted.

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Are you a scientist, JWhop? Obviously, not. Depleted Uranium is a low-level alpha emitter which constantly emits radiation. In addition, it is a toxic heavy metal, such as lead, cadmium, and mercury. Heavy metals cause cancer and birth defects. Would you deny that, JWhop?

The real danger comes when the shell explodes and soldiers suck the dust into their lungs. Depleted Uranium "bunker buster" missiles were also used in Baghdad, exposing thousands of civilians.

There is also evidence to date that plain ol' nuclear waste is used in these slugs, and not pure depleted uranium, as you might suppose:
http://www2.gol.com/users/bobkeim/Iraq/dumore.html
http://www.miltoxproj.org/DU/DU_Faqs/Du_Faqs.htm

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My vote for Bush will not reflect that Kerry is a liar. Kerry committed treason against the US, gave aid and comfort to America's enemy in Vietnam and is embarked

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This is a sickening statement. I would like you to offer even ONE SHRED of evidence that Kerry is a traitor, or that he gave aid and comfort to America's enemies. Or, in fact, that anything he said about the war in Vietnam was untrue.

You make a statement, you back it up with proof.

Even Bush won't go anywhere near this. He certainly was buttering Kerry's toast during the debate, wasn't he?

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on the same exercise today, giving aid and comfort to the terrorists by his incessant attacks on the military mission in Iraq.

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And, how do you figure that, JWhop? You make these wild and unfounded claims, and you don't even bother to back them up with evidence. Let's have it.

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Let's see how this sounds to you. "American military forces should never be deployed anywhere in the world unless they are under the command of United Nations commanders." $crew the utterly corrupt UN and Kerry too.

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In other words, ***** the world and any American accountability. Remember that the United States created the UN and the UN is practically a satellite of it. If you disagree, furnish us with some evidence.

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Well Laff, you must be psychic to know that all those casualties in Iraq are civilians.

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You must be psychic to know that they aren't. Or is it ill-informed?

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After all, the terrorists, Baathists and foreign fighters injured or killed ARE in military uniforms...aren't they? They're easily identified as combatants, now aren't they? I guess we'll just have to take your word...and the word of the propaganda artists for that. It seems to me the

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Yeah, JWhop, can't have that. Let's go over there to Iraq and just shoot at everything in sight. Ya never know who might be a terrorist in disguise... they're lurking around every corner.....

Sheesh, JWhop. You make this war sound every bit as dangerous and intractible as Vietnam! I'm glad you're not a soldier over there. I doubt the military would want you, condiering your level of sensitivity to civilians.

How would you like it if the shoe was on the other foot? Suppose the North Koreans came here, took over our country (using Bush as an excuse) and then just assumed that every plainclothesman was a pistol-packing "militia extremist", and started shooting at every American in sight? How would you like that? Not only would you want to be one of the people that the N. Koreans were labeling "terrorists", you'd be packing double fire-power. Be careful how you use the word "terrorists", JWhop. Those people in Iraq never invaded America once, and never walked on American soil.

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I agree, there is NO chance Bush will pull troops out of Iraq until the terrorists are defeated there, there are elections

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Which will never happen, for obvious reasons stated before, there are no "terrorists" in Iraq and that fact is indiscernable to hoodwinked conservatives, so the war will continue indefinitely.

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representing the will of the Iraqi people

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The will of the Iraqi people is that we get the heck out of there!!! If the President has not "granted" them an election yet for "security" reasons, it's because he's a fascist. They might just vote us out of the country!

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and sufficient Iraqi forces are trained to provide security for Iraq. There is every reason to believe Kerry will not follow through, will turn Iraq over to the terrorists and see to the installation of

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Oh, JWhop, I don't think there's any danger of that happening. Kerry is a little clone of Bush and is just as war-hungry as he is.

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time in Iraq. Kerry must never be President. His talking points to the terrorists are to hold on, don't give up and when I'm elected I'll pull the troops out of Iraq and give you the victory you couldn't win on the battle field. Same

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That's ridiculous. When did he say that to the terrorists? That doesn't compute logically. This (Kerry promises victory to terrorists) doesn't follow from that (Opposition to the war in Iraq). Your logic is completely convoluted, JWhop!

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talking points he stressed to the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese communists with his lying protests of American atrocities in the Vietnam War.

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So, you are denying Mi Lai massacre and rape and killing of Vietnamese civilians ever happened? There is footage to back that up. Maybe now you will also deny that soldiers were sexually abused and tortured in Iraqi prisons, JWhop. It sounds like we're the terrorists. Neither of these countries set foot on American soil or did anything other than assert the SOVERIEGNTY of their own countries and impede our progress into their countries.

You are an Imperialist, just like Dubya Shrub and all his sad fascist losers in the White House. You want us to procede to make war on every nation on Earth to assert our "soveriegnty" over those nations, (which we haven't got a single right to, I may add) without any proof they own weapons of mass destruction or the ability to implement them.

Iraq had nothing to do with the terrorists of 9-11, JWhop. You don't have a shred of evidence to prove they did, and in fact the 9-11 Commission concluded they didn't. (The terrorists were mostly Saudi Arabians, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia?) Iraq never owned any weapons of mass destruction. That is also a lie. Bush can't seem to stop lying to the American people despite the best intelligence on Earth and access to all classified records. Gimme a break.

I challenge you to prove that Iraq was harboring Osama bin Laden or any other Al Quaeda. They weren't. The weapons they claim were there have never been found. They didn't even exist.

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As for the War resolution and Kerry's vote, let me remind you, John Kerry is on the Senate Intelligence Committee....though he never shows up for work, as such, Kerry and every member of the House and Senate saw exactly the same information the President saw, had briefings from the CIA and other intelligence agencies and had access to the intelligence of intelligence services of other nations. Again, state the lie you

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I doubt that Kerry and others in Congress receive the same type and scope of briefings that the President gets. I seriously doubt that they have access to all classified records. Heck, they even keep the President in the dark on a variety of matters. (Example: Eisenhower did not know that nuclear proliferation would lead to total annihilation, the govt. kept him in the dark about this until his term was nearly over.) In this country, the alphabet agencies rule supreme.

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allege Bush told to induce Congress to
declare war. It has been the official policy of the United States that regime change was necessary in Iraq...since 1998.

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Then, why didn't they just send in operatives to take care of Saddam and govt.? I guess war is far more profitable.

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State with particularity, the rights you've lost as a United States citizen that you had before Bush became President. You

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Try the so-called ban on "partial birth abortion," which would deny a woman the right to an abortion as early as her 3rd month of pregnancy, or how about Bush trying to push the "Defense of Marriage Act" through Congress to permanently deny gays the right to get married in this country?

And in addition, how about the so-called "Patriot Act", which passed by a landslide in Congress (98-1), and which
Bush signed into law, which limits the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 8th amendments? Bush even emphasized during his debate how essential this bill was in the War on Terror, in a squeaky, croaking voice. He knew that Kerry had voted for it, too.

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shouldn't have any problem with that Laff, you'll find the rights of American citizens in the US Constitution. If it isn't there, you don't have it.

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Ahhh, so *you* believe Americans don't have any rights until the Governement grants them? The Constitution fails to mention your right to breathe, so I am to suppose you don't have it? I challenge you to read the Constitution. You will not find a single personal right listed there. It was only the Bill of Rights, added almost as an afterthought, that stated the freedoms which we enjoy today. (In addition to other amendments.)

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Hearsay should never be a consideration in making important decisions but if you insist, here's some hearsay for you to consider.

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You're right, hearsay should not be a consideration, just the facts.

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Who or what is the DLF?

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You've got it mixed up, JWhop. It's the "DFL", the Democratic Farmers' and Laborers' Party.

posted October 02, 2004 05:57 PM              

The British Sunday Times reported on January 27, 1991, that American intelligence detected greatly increased activity at Iraq's main chemical plant at Samarra in the last week of December, and the British Ministry of Defense said that the Allies believe that Iraq "may have as many as 100,000 artillery shells filled with chemicals and several tons (of bulk agent) stored near the front line." http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_1_1.html

U.S. Unofficial Reports of Downwind Exposure Due to Coalition Bombings of Iraqi Chemical and Biological Facilities http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_3_1.html

i'll bet there are still toxic pits of bombed caches no one has found......
at least at the end of ww2 we cleaned up all our messy wmds by THROWING THEM IN THE OCEAN.....

posted October 02, 2004 09:21 PM              

I forgot to reply to 26taurus! Thank you for the warm welcome.