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Author
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Topic: "Radical" Islam Murders 41 People Today
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Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 01, 2004 02:19 AM
  
11 (including suicide bomber) Suicide Bomber Kills 10 at Moscow Subway 18 (including 2 suicide bombers) Sixteen dead in twin suicide bus bombings in southern Israeli city 12 12 Nepalese hostages reported killed in Iraq, uncertainty over French captives I was reading through the news and it occurred to me how many people were killed today by radical islamic groups in this one day alone. It's just sad. How many Christian Fundamentalist suicide attacks are there? Buddhist? Hindu? Now I know not every Muslim is bad. That's not what I'm saying - my point is, if the religious leaders of these people don't start denouncing terrorism a bit more loudly, well, it's not going to be good, and is going to end up causing a whole lot more bloodshed throughout the world, muslim and non-muslim. I mean, wtf. It's just sad and annoying. Religion of "peace"? Are extreme liberals, the chronically PC, and appeasing politicians the only ones who believe that? Surely enough if its adherents don't, otherwise I would expect to hear a louder more indignant outcry that their religion had been hijacked, both domestically and abroad. The silence is both defeaning and potentially damning IMO. /rant ***disclaimer*** I am aware that American troops die in Iraq every day, and that people die all over the world every day, that people are murdered all over the world every day, etc, so please, let's not get into the, "but X people die etc". This is not about death in general, but rather about the phenomenon of radical Islam taken to the point of indescriminate murder. If you want to argue about the deaths in Iraq of impoverished children, or genocide in the Sudan, please start another thread. Yes yes, I can hear it now, the acrimonious recriminations: it's a free world, freedom of speech, who the hell am I to tell you what to not say, etc. I'm just respectfully asking in advance that the thread not be hijacked in the name of someone's pet peeve cause. Thank you. ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
proxieme
unregistered
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posted September 01, 2004 08:30 AM
Feel that anger that you have.Really feel it.
Now realize that - rightly or wrongly - many in the Islamic world view the US as being responsible for just as many if not more deaths in a given day.
Ask, "Why do they hate us?" Saying that they have no right to feel as they do will accomplish nothing. If you truly and deeply felt yourself and yours to have been wronged to the core by someone - wronged beyond all capacity to bear-, even if that wrong-doing was no direct fault of thier own, how ready would you be to listen to reason?
Would you be ready to engage in discourse with those that you view to be completely inhuman in their action and motivation? --- There is a cry within many Muslim circles that their religion is being hijaked, many just don't see it as a matter to be gnashed over with "outsiders".
That, and some feel a secret sympathy towards the extremists for the reasons listed above. --- NOTE: This is not a defense of what terrorists have done and do, simply an appeal to try to find the reason that their heinous actions carry such cred in many parts of the Islamic world.
Until we get to the root of that, we'll not be able to but in fits and starts stem the tide of blood. IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted September 01, 2004 11:27 AM
I agree with prox. (big surprise, huh?)Demonizing terrorists accomplishes nothing but more death. Asking tough questions about how things got to be this way is the place to start finding a solution... IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 01, 2004 11:35 AM
I understand what you're saying Prox. I just don't think that it matters "why" when it comes to murder. I don't care why they hate us. Hate isn't an excuse to murder (I know that's not what you're saying, but it IS what I'm saying).I'm not saying they don't have a right to feel any way whatsoever. What I AM saying is that they have no right to act upon that hate in the form of murder. quote:
even if that wrong-doing was no direct fault of thier own, how ready would you be to listen to reason
Very ready, providing their not getting to the table by murdering. quote:
Would you be ready to engage in discourse with those that you view to be completely inhuman in their action and motivation?
Sure, providing they're not murdering and kidnapping. I just don't buy into the "Why do they hate us" thing. When they're murdering women, children and the elderly indescriminately by targeting civilians, or kidnap French journalists in an effort to blackmail a sovereign nation (that incidentally opposed us re: the war in Iraq) into changing laws made democratically, well, it becomes impossible IMO to take them seriously at all. Murder is not the way (mentally) healthy responsible adults get attention IMO. But thanks for answering Prox.  I wasn't angry so much as frustrated, and sad that the situation even exists at all.
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“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 01, 2004 11:49 AM
And yet another:
Hundreds Held in Russian School; 8 Killed Oh yeah, these are reasonable rational people with which we should be conducting discourse...  Based on the logic of "understanding why", perhaps we should do away with the penal system entirely, and just enroll those who commit violent crimes into group therapy so they can "understand why", instead of incarcerating them. I mean, hey, maybe they're fighting for freedom from not being able to rape a woman whenever they want. Or taking their neighbor's stuff at gunpoint. That's it...they're not criminals...they're freedom fighters...fighting for their freedom to do and take whatever they want whereever and whenever they want... IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 01, 2004 12:40 PM
Isis, Prox...You both make very good points. Damn wishy washy Libra... I can't choose a side in this one. It's an enigma, really. Like capital punishment. When you throw Karma into the mix, it doesn't really make sense for anyone to kill anyone... since they're just gonna come back (given you believe in reicarnation as I do) to do whatever all over again. Whatever they're here for, they're here with the drive to do it (I'm kinda talking about both sides and capital punishment here). If we kill them, or they kill us... or whatever.... we're all going to come back with the same s**t to do. Won't we? Now, these crazy, wacko, murderers... *shrug* I don't know what to do with them... but I do believe a large majority of people could be put into therapy and made to look at "why" and be rehabilitated... giving they have a willingness to be rehabilitated  Kinda like Proxie's analogy somewhere (was it here?) with the hydra. If we keep killing people off, they'll come back two fold. Do you suppose it would work the same way for the "good"?... the people in these articles that have been killed? Will they come back two fold as well. I sure hope so  IP: Logged |
QueenofSheeba
unregistered
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posted September 02, 2004 12:54 AM
I do not think religion really has anything to do with this. If one studies the teachings of Islam, one will see that people like bin Laden are no more true Muslims than people like Jerry Falwell are true Chistians. All they are is haters.No, not religion- tribalism. Picture this: tribe of p.issed-off Bedouins in the desert, want to go get revenge on the next tribe for stealing their camel. And picture this: Modern tribe of Arabs, p.issed off for other reasons, want to go get the decadent West, for... why? I don't know. Because we support Israel. Well, I'm not that fond of Israel either, but it's a pretty flimsy reason. Religion is just the excuse. See past it, look at the structures and traditions of the family unit. That's what we're dealing with. ------------------
Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)! IP: Logged |
proxieme
unregistered
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posted September 03, 2004 05:39 PM
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040903/D84SDD2G1.html IP: Logged |
ozonefiller
Newflake Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 03, 2004 05:54 PM
Why am I not suprised that al-Qaida had some involvement in this and yet we still sit in Iraq doing our own terrorism?!IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted September 03, 2004 08:53 PM
Queen of Sheba - I agree with you that religion is used simply as an excuse for murder, at times. But also, what many people call "religion" is really a "code" of sorts, or a set of beliefs. If none of us in the world had "religion" per se, we would still most likely have a set of beliefs. And these beliefs across the globe would surely differ in one way or another. There would still very likely be murder in the name of those beliefs, whether they are formally referred to as "religion" or by some other name. Isis was (I think) moreso observing that the general trend currently is that some who call themselves "Muslims" have so identified with their beliefs that they are willing to savagely murder innocent civilians just to make a statement. We don't see that happening in the name of Judiasm or Christianity or Hinduism, etc. To Proxieme's point, why? Why is there a hatred of the US, if that's what it is? Our military does not stake out elementary schools to take innocent children hostage. We do not blow up civilian airline carriers either. In all fairness, I think we generally fight by the rules and those who do not are quickly found out and dealt with. And another question beyond why are we so hated would be "why are the Muslims reacting with such violence as a result of this hatred?" Certainly we can all find things to hate (or severely dislike) but our ways of dealing with these things are usually more civil. What types of feelings produce the urge to carry out such heinous crimes? Or is it just a matter of brainwashing? I think it could be...Interestingly Prox, I find it ironic if what you said is true re. the Muslims feeling their religion is being hijacked. Truly, it is the Muslims who seem to be spilling out in droves into other countries due to their phenominal rate of population growth. There is already a town in Michigan I believe (though I have to double check to make sure I have the right state), that has given in to the broadcasting of the Muslim "call from prayer". To elaborate, the call to prayer is broadcasted via loudspeakers across the neighborhood, infringing on other peoples' rights NOT to be forced to listen to it. I call that being hijacked, actually. Talk about real lack of separation between church and state. What next? Will non-Muslim women in the town need to walk around with their heads covered because NOT to do so would be offensive to a Muslim? Fundamentally, there belief structure does not center around much tolerance for others' views. They do not seem to be happy to worship behind closed doors or "live and let live". I would potentially be willing to "negotiate" or "rehabilitate" or "re-educate" but there will always be some people who are so intense in their own beliefs that they will not be broken. They will not comply and their anger is very often not something that can be rationally parsed out. Such venemous people are usually not aware of truly why they are so angry, otherwise they would probably not be. I do feel some measure of pity towards these people but the safety of those who are innocent surely overrides this. If it means that these people must be done away with, then so be it. I can only hope that reincarnation does follow some sort of evolutionary course, so that in all of our respective "future" lives, we will either conciously or unconciously remember our mistakes and seek to better ourselves in light of them. IP: Logged |
proxieme
unregistered
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posted September 03, 2004 09:35 PM
Don't have much time (didn't but scan your post), but one thing struck me - You talked of the Islamic call to prayer in an American community not being fair to those who aren't Muslim -
What do you think of church bells? IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted September 04, 2004 08:50 PM
To answer your question Prox, I have thought about church bells. To me, they are no more intrusive than a passing car, honking it's horn, really. Maybe others would argue differently but I have never heard of anyone complaining that they are intrusive. I think that broadcasted calls to prayer are a different matter. For the record, many churches limit the use of the bells to special services, such a funeral masses, similar to a 21 gun salute. Really though, there is a difference between use of sound and use of voice. Can you imagine if a Catholic priest broadcasted a neighborhood call to prayer via loudspeakers? It would most probably headline in the news and stir up very many controversial debates. But where are all the people protesting the Muslim call to prayer? The silence is deafening. Are they afraid, I wonder? IP: Logged |
proxieme
unregistered
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posted September 04, 2004 10:51 PM
Because I'd guess that many people - well, myself, anyway - view the call to prayer to be about the same as church bells.
And I've lived in quite a few communities, and so far each has had at least a church that rang each hour, some more often.IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted September 04, 2004 11:30 PM
Well, Prox. We've both spoken. I respect your opinion. And now I ask anyone who might be reading this thread (though I am digressing a bit from the original topic at hand): Who here among us views the Muslim call to prayer to be no more intrusive than that of church bells? Also, as I mentioned a few posts ago, what happens if or when certain followers of Islam decide that it is offensive for other non-Muslim women in the community to walk around with their heads uncovered? Or what about their view of "honor killings" within their own families? Will separation of church and state reign supreme then? What is the general consensus on this forum? I am curious to know what the general sentiment is... IP: Logged |
QueenofSheeba
unregistered
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posted September 05, 2004 03:47 AM
Rather than typing a new reply, I think I'll just copy a previous one from a previous string. quote:
quote:
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"...but we can sure isolate, take out massive numbers of them..."
-Randall
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That phrase. "Take out massive numbers of them". Uttered (or, better, written) with sheltered confidence in the computer-game like ability of the military to kill people.
I'm afraid I don't understand terrorists. I can think of them only in terms of we-and-the-enigma. They are to me a benignly malicious unknown. When I hear about their deaths I feel only curiosity. No satisfaction, no righteousness, no sympathy or even mild regret. We are fighting an enemy that to me does not even exist, and, fool that I am, I do not hate.
-Me
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Hello everybody! I used to be QueenofSheeba and then I was Apollo and now I am QueenofSheeba again (and I'm a guy in case you didn't know)!IP: Logged |
Harpyr
Newflake Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted September 05, 2004 12:50 PM
Church bells don't particularly bother me. I imagine the Muslim calls to prayer wouldn't bother me either, though I've never heard them before.What bothers me is being constantly subjected to the gospel of Consumerism. Everywhere I turn I am forced to view advertising and I find that this greatly offends my spiritual sensibilities. It is brainwashing my child and all I can do is hope that when he is old enough to discover for himself the hollowness of the religion pushed upon us by the dominant class of this country I will be able help him find something to fill the void left by rampant materialism and greed so pervasive to our society. **** I know that some may argue that Consumerism isn't a religion. The way I see it, it certainly has many of the characteristics of religion. It has a creationist story- God created the Earth for humans to exploit to their own ends. It has a highly complex set of principals and dogma- capitalism, meritocracy, worship upon the altar of competition and survival of the fittest, proselytization (economic 'globalization'), myth that ALL technology is good and so forth.. This religion of Consumerism is, in my opinion, a scourge upon the earth and only leads people into despair and hopelessness. It leads to people killing themselves with food, a plague of ADHD, manic depression and bi-polar disorder which in turn causes us to medicate ourselves into somnambulism. I find this religion much more of a threat to our collective (whole Earth) well being than radical Islam. IP: Logged |
Isis
Newflake Posts: 1
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 05, 2004 01:13 PM
If I were you, I would not let my children watch TV, or if I did, I would only allow them to watch programs that I had previewed, I would watch it with them (so that I had an opportunity to counter certain things I don't agree with), or I'd use a product that nixes out the commercials (does TiVo do that, or another electronic gadget, not sure). Easy for me to say, sure I don't have kids. But when I do, I have no intention of allowing them to watch whatever they want without supervision. Esp. Nick - at least Disney tries to put a moral on their stories in their shows. About Muslim calls to prayer...I view it as very different than church bells, if the pastor got on a loud speaker and began chanting for everyone to come to church, I would find that equally offensive as Muslim calls to prayer. And I agree Quick that it is a slippery slope which could very well lead to those things you mentioned (headscarfs in public, etc). Consumerism is pervasive, no doubt about it, and just as much at risk of enslaving the populace to ideals as religion can, however it can be counteracted by the way one raises their children, I do believe. Not by denying them things, but by taking the time to explain things to them. Then again, maybe I'm just niave - as I said, I don't have children. What I'm suggesting may very well be easier said then done... ------------------
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
quiksilver
unregistered
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posted September 05, 2004 05:06 PM
Interesting points both, Harpyr and Isis. IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle
unregistered
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posted September 05, 2004 05:09 PM
Tivo doesn't edit out commercials, but you can fast forward through them ... but only if you've already recorded the program.It works out well if you start an half an hour program about 10 minutes into it (20 for an hour). Then you can FF through all that junk. IP: Logged | |
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