Author
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Topic: Bush Wins Tax Victory!
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 12:29 AM
Not sure why anyone would oppose paying less taxes, but I do think it was clever of Bush to try to to get tax legislation passed during an election year (getting the approval of many Democrats who were scared to vote no). ------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle unregistered
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posted September 25, 2004 12:56 AM
I sometimes oppose paying less taxes. It depends on where it's coming from. Taxes are pretty useful for educating our children and keeping our roads drivable.Not too long ago around here they were trying to lower the property taxes (which a huge chunk of goes to public schools) by upping the taxes on the local casinos. I don't think the Native American people running the casinos should pay to educate my kids. I think it's unfair to tax them more because they were given land they chose to build a profitable business on. They pay their taxes just like everyone else. They shouldn't ahve to pay a higher rate just so our property tax can be lower... especially when we already DON'T have a state income tax... and Oregon is 10 minutes away with no sales tax. IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 01:31 AM
Oh no, I'm not opposed to paying less tax, but reality has it that it's only the Rich that are getting they're taxes cut, the middle class maybe get to have a little bit knocked off, but the poor will always have pay taxes no matter what, under the Bush adiminstration. Meanwhile, the government can just keep on wasting as much money as they possibly can, like such as sending satilites up in space to collect the suns rays to see if Solar power really works, but that doesn't matter, for the Bush's will never let America go beyond the Royal Saudi Family and use anything but they're oil. Ask Bush to cut down admission gases that cause the greenhouse effect and he'll tell you that the proof of it is still in it's testing faze. Maybe when we're in another Ice Age, we'll realize that Bush was wrong! IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 09:59 AM
Bush extended the 10 percent tax rate to more Americans, providing middle class tax relief, which is what this country needs. The true poor pay no income tax, although I don't see why they shouldn't. I'm all for a flat tax or national sales tax where everyone pays their fair share--and the IRS are unemployed. Don't you know that ice ages have been occurring as a natural cycle of the earth long before man began "disrupting" things. The greenhouse effect is what keeps us warm and is a good thing. If anything, our "disruption" will break the cycle and prevent an ice age. A medium-sized volcano can send more ozone-depleting emissions into the atmosphere than the entire time man has populated the earth. Holes are also cyclical (where there is a lack of sunlight). We have much less of an effect on the earth than our Egos would like to make us believe. ------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 03:53 PM
Oh yeah, I can see that global warming is such a great thing for the world environment:Study: Antarctic glaciers melting faster Wednesday, September 22, 2004 Posted: 11:15 PM EDT (0315 GMT) WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Glaciers once held up by a floating ice shelf off Antarctica are now sliding off into the sea -- and they are going fast, scientists said on Tuesday. Two separate studies from climate researchers and the space agency NASA show the glaciers are flowing into Antarctica's Weddell Sea, freed by the 2002 breakup of the Larsen B ice shelf. Writing in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, the researchers said their satellite measurements suggest climate warming can lead to rapid sea level rise. The teams at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, the National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, said the findings also prove that ice shelves hold back glaciers. Many teams of researchers are keeping a close eye on parts of Antarctica that are steadily melting. Large ice shelves in the Antarctic Peninsula disintegrated in 1995 and 2002 as a result of climate warming. But these floating ice shelves did not affect sea level as they melted. Glaciers, however, are another story. They rest on land and when they slide off into the water they instantly affect sea level. It was not clear how the loss of the Larsen B ice shelf would affect nearby glaciers. But soon after its collapse, researchers saw nearby glaciers flowing up to eight times faster than before. "If anyone was waiting to find out whether Antarctica would respond quickly to climate warming, I think the answer is yes," said Theodore Scambos, a University of Colorado glacier expert who worked on one study. "We've seen 150 miles (240 kilometers) of coastline change drastically in just 15 years." The affected area is at the far northern tip of the Antarctic, just south of Chile and Argentina. Temperatures there have risen by up to 4.5 degrees Fahrenheit (2.5 degrees C) in the past 60 years -- faster than almost any region in the world. In the past 30 years, ice shelves in the region have lost more than 5,200 square miles (13,500 sq km) of area. "The Larsen area can be looked at as a miniature experiment, showing how warming can dramatically change the ice sheets, and how fast it can happen," Scambos said in a statement. "At every step in the process, things have occurred more rapidly than we expected." But not all the melting in the Antarctic can be seen as a "miniature experiment." The Ross ice shelf, for example, is the main outlet for the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, with several large glaciers that could, if they melted completely, raise sea levels by 16 feet (5 metres). "While the consequences of this area are small compared to other parts of the Antarctic, it is a harbinger of what will happen when the large ice sheets begin to warm," Scambos said. "The much larger ice shelves in other parts of Antarctica could have much greater effects on the rate of sea level rise." http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/09/22/environment.glaciers.reut/
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ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 03:58 PM
Oh, but if that's not all:Kazakhstan's glaciers 'melting fast' By Alex Kirby BBC News Online environment correspondent The political stability of a key central Asian state could be imperilled by climate change, researchers say. I think we have to say that climate is affecting the glaciers
Dr Stephan Harrison, University of Oxford They say glaciers are melting so fast in parts of Kazakhstan that the livelihoods of millions of people will be affected. They found the area's glaciers were losing almost two cubic kilometres of ice annually during the later 20th Century. With regional temperatures rising, they believe climate change is responsible. The scientists, led by Dr Stephan Harrison of the University of Oxford, reported their findings at the annual conference in London of the UK's Royal Geographical Society and Institute of British Geographers. They concentrated on the Zailiiskiy Alatau range of the northern Tien Shan mountains, which stretch through Kazakhstan and its neighbour Kyrgyzstan, and into China (the name means "the celestial mountains"). The mountains, which run for 2,000 km (1,250 miles) along the north-west edge of the Tibetan plateau, form an important climatic barrier between the Siberian and central Asian air masses. Long observation period There are 416 glaciers in the region, covering 510 square km (197 square miles). TIEN SHAN RANGE The Tien Shan range runs across China, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan Dr Harrison and his colleagues, from the University of Newcastle, UK, von Humboldt University, Germany, and the Kazakh Academy of Sciences, say they have been losing nearly two cubic km of ice a year between 1955 and 2000. Between 1974 and 1990, the glaciers lost 1.28% of their volume each year. The Tuyuksu glacier, 30 km (18 miles) south of Kazakhstan's largest city, Almaty, has been monitored by the country's scientists since 1902, with less detailed observations dating back to the 1870s. Since 1923 it has receded by nearly a kilometre, losing about 51 million cubic metres of ice. The team says these changes have serious implications for river runoff, and therefore for Almaty's water supply. The glaciers keep the plains alive Many of the rivers which supply the irrigation schemes essential to agriculture are fed by glaciers and permafrost in the upper ranges of the Tien Shan, so the livelihoods of millions of people will be affected. The authors say not only Kazakh agriculture and development will be jeopardised but the political stability of a swathe of central Asia, as many of the rivers and glaciers cross state frontiers. Warming up Kazakhstan uses about 90% of its water for irrigation, with an efficiency of only 40-60%, and it is adding 9,000 hectares (22,000 acres) to the irrigated area every year. Many Kazakhs face a drier future The scientists say the glaciers' "consistent pattern of retreat over the latter part of the 20th Century... is associated with a small but pervasive rise in mean annual temperatures". Dr Harrison said: "The effects of global warming on glaciers are not just of interest to scientists, as glacial retreat has profound political, economic and social repercussions." He told BBC News Online: "I think we can be certain the reason why the Tien Shan glaciers are melting is climate change. Uncontaminated evidence "We have the climate records themselves, which go back to early last century. Sceptics often argue that records of this sort are contaminated by the proximity of urban centres. "But these records are from glaciers 3,000 m (9,800 feet) up, nowhere near any towns or cities. "They're confirmed by the evidence from tree rings, which preserve a record of climate conditions as they grow, and by the meteorological records. "Taking all three together, I think we have to say that climate is affecting the glaciers." The Tien Shan range runs across China, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3077422.stm IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 04:01 PM
And does this all sound too familiar? http://www.climatehotmap.org/asia.html IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 04:03 PM
So, what does anybody think of Ivan lately?Here's what Pennsylvanians think of it! http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=2325626 http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=2323087 http://www.wnep.com/Global/category.asp?C=58025 http://www.wnep.com/Global/category.asp?C=58031 Gee, I was thinking about moving back to Long Island, but I guess I won't have to, in ten years, PA will have enough of beachfront property anyway by then, LI will be gone!
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 04:15 PM
Localized geographical climate changes have always occurred--even before humans had cars and factories--and have little to do with the greenhouse effect (which is real), global warming (which is not), or human interference. ------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 25, 2004 05:15 PM
Sure, just like back in the Post-Dinosaur ages or everytime when a meteor that's either 1/4 mile to 7 miles wide collides into earth!Nothing that humans have every done before! IP: Logged |
quiksilver unregistered
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posted September 25, 2004 11:11 PM
Randall, you made a really good point about the true poor not having to pay taxes. They don't. ( I should know, I used to assist in handling payroll for a company a few yrs. ago.) I never understood how people don't know this. I guess one wouldn't know, unless they were truly poor or unless they had any knowledge of tax law, but still..... there are those out there who are and who do, yet still this notion persists that the poor are taxed and the rich are given a "break". Ozone, you addressed Randall's comments on the greenhouse effect but what did you think of what he had to say about the tax issue??? Unless I was just scrolling down to quickly, I don't think you had remarked on it..... IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 26, 2004 01:40 AM
It's simple Quiksilver, Bush gave most of that tax break to the Rich that don't really need it, the Middle class of the ones that earned it and nothing to the poor that will never ever advance themselves even further for all the expences will ever go higher and higher in this country and the poor(mainly the "Working Class poor" will always be having that big chunk takin' out of they're pay checks every Bi-weekly!Randall has a slended plan for the way that taxes should be dealt with in America, but Bush hasn't mentioned that plan as of yet, so it's not going to happen, at this rate, I wouldn't mind seeing Randall in office than either of these two canidates, but I guess that's not gonna happen either! My little brother would be a great running mate for Randall, for he has some more constructive plans in mind as well! http://www.fairtax.org/ And this is a Libertarian(Me), saying this about two Republicans that I deal with most of the time! Two great ideas, but Bush mentioned nothing of this, so I guess it will never happen in my lifetime! IP: Logged |
Isis Newflake Posts: 1 From: Brisbane, Australia Registered: May 2009
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posted September 26, 2004 04:33 AM
I did a search of this online, and to be honest, it seemed absolutely all the analysis on it is extremely biased. I was looking for some independant group that compiled data on the percentages of cuts that actually went to various income brackets - I couldn't find any such thing. So I decided to look at the actual numbers myself and do the math. Ex. A: If one was single in 2003, and made $30,000/year, and filed a 1040EZ, one would deduct $7,800 right off the top, which reduces their taxable income to $22,200, and makes their tax bill $2964. Ex. B: If one was single in 2000, and made $30,000/year, and filed a 1040 EZ, one would deduct $7,200 right off the top, which reduces their taxable income to $22,800, and makes their tax bill $3424. Now, there are two things going on there - for one, the standard deduction you're allowed to take went UP btwn 2000 and 2003 - which lowers your taxable income. The second thing going on, is that the tax RATE itself is lowered. The net reduction in % of income paid in tax was -2%, from 15% in 2000 to 13% in 2003. People filing out 1040EZs, making apx. 30K/year would have seen an additional $460 in their pockets. Another change I see, is that in 2000, if you made $7500/year, you paid tax. In 2003, that same person paid no tax. That is because the standard deduction went up, thus raising the amount you must earn before you qualify to have to pay tax. Let's look at a higher bracket and two lower brackets. We'll stick w/ the 1040EZ filing as an example, since it's the most straightforward, and we'll stick w/ single to keep it apples to apples. If one is paid Federal Minimum Wage of $5.15/hour, that equates to $10,712/year, so lets look at that. 2000 Income: $10,712 Standard Deduction: $7,200 Taxable Income: $3,512 Tax due: $529 % of Gross Income: 4.9% 2003 Income: $10,712 Standard Deduction: $7,800 Taxable Income: $2,912 Tax due: $291 % of Gross Income: 2.7% That's just over a 50% reduction in tax for the minimum wage tax bracket from 2000 to 2003. Now we'll look at those who made $20K/year. 2000 Income: $20,000 Standard Deduction: $7,200 Taxable Income: $12,800 Tax due: $1,924 % of Gross Income: 9.62% 2003 Income: $20,000 Standard Deduction: $7,800 Taxable Income: $12,200 Tax due: $1,484 % of Gross Income: 7.42% There again we see that 2% reduction from 2000 to 2003, and a tax break of $440. When we look at a higher bracket: 2000 Income: $50,000 Standard Deduction: $7,200 Taxable Income: $42,800 Tax due: $8,579 % of Gross Income: 17% 2003 Income: $50,000 Standard Deduction: $7,800 Taxable Income: $42,200 Tax due: $7,366 % of Gross Income: 14.7% This person would have gotten $1,213 back, but we still see the 2% percentage reduction. One thing I do notice, which could be misleading, is that the guy at 50K gets a substantial reduction in tax burden in actual dollars verses the guy at 30K - however, he also STILL pays considerably more tax than the guy down at 30K, so, it's all relative. But it can give the impression that the guy that earns 50K/year received some big break as compared to the "little guy" down at 20K, when in fact, he received the same percentage of what he pays in tax, back. When you get into higher incomes, you can't use a 1040EZ, and those folks generally itemize. Another thing that should be taken into account is the cities in which wage earners live, when analyzing the data as to what subjective term (rich/poor) to use when categorizing the tax cuts. For example, you could NOT live on Federal Minimum Wage in the SF/Bay Area - unless you were in subsidized housing, and on food stamps. AT 30K, you're barely getting by. At 50K, you STILL aren't earning enough to qualify to buy your own home (unlike most other areas in the US), but you could afford to live alone (rents are high) and own a new car. You can't buy a single family home in the SF/Bay Area for under $400K. So you need to be earning a minimum of $80K to be even SNIFFING owning your own home - condos come a bit cheaper, but not by much. And remember, we're talking about single earners. In Omaha, you're doing pretty darned well if are single, earning 50K/year, but in the SF Bay Area, you STILL couldn't afford your own home OR condo at that wage. Maybe if I'm bored tomorrow I'll take a look at married filing status and taxes. Anyway, draw your own conclusions. That data was all drawn from IRS publications for the applicable tax years. ------------------ “The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished, but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.” Seneca IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 26, 2004 12:57 PM
Actually, Ozone, providing Bush wins and the Republicans are in the majority after November, they aim to scrap the tax code and possibly abolish the IRS. Bush spoke of this in detail in a speech a while back. ------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
quiksilver unregistered
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posted September 26, 2004 05:26 PM
Hey, Ozone! Never knew your brother was politically active (or that you even had a brother!!) I checked out that site, by the way....Gotta take another gander at it before commenting further....Isis, the numbers and percentages definitely put it all in perspective and you make an excellent point about who is considered "poor" in varying geographical locations. In South Carolina for example, I could totally have owned my own house for a couple of yrs. now on the salary I make. Alas, here in good old NJ, it will be a few more months before I can think about making a down payment.... Ah well, good things come to those who wait.... (and save)!!! And I agree with you in the sense that taxation is not so cut and dried, as it is often made out to be. Thank you for providing some illustrative materials! (And thank you Ozone, as well...just can't comment yet b/c I gotta go back to read in more depth) IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle unregistered
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posted September 26, 2004 08:02 PM
I know I'm a little late in the conversation... but here's a blurb I found on global warming. My personal opinion is that it's sensationalized BS... actually, I think a lot of the Environmental Movement is sensationalized BS. Fred Palmer of the Western Fuels Association (a front for coal and other corporate interests), for example, says, "Known apocalyptic global warming advocates, in their zeal to convince the world that the holocaust will be upon us unless we curtail our use of fossil fuels, compose conclusions which ignore actual observations. ... Satellites, that measure the world’s temperature so accurately that they can detect when the moon is full, find no warming whatsoever in their entire 18-year record." http://www.rmbowman.com/ssn/warming.htm
"The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic...plastic came out of the earth, the earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children...could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself, didn't know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question...why are we here?: plastic, a**holes." -George Carlin
Thanks for the work on those numbers, Isis IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 28, 2004 03:28 AM
I don't see how in the world Randall that we can be even able to have these things that we need to get done in this country like road work, schools, maintainance, etc without having to pay taxes. I hope that your not sugesting that we privatise these needs to certain companies, that too can lead into a corperate corruption as well and as of fault! Believe me when I tell you that I live in state that privatising is about as natural as breathing here and it does so and as so bad as the fact that if you are sweating on a really hot summer day and that you want to cool off, but you can't, because you don't own a part of any lake to swim in, you suffer, because your not rich enough to cool off, if you go to a public pool however, you still have to be a resident of the area to swim in that pool in order to cool off in. Let's say that your one of those "backwoods nonames" living in the sticks and it's winter time and your cought up into a 3 day blizzard(something that most southerners only see in the movies) and your barricated in 20 feet of snow and you need to get supplies, food water and such, but you can't because the companies do all the plowing are on strike, your stranded and your in Shitsville and you starve and you die, how great is it not to have the IRS around to make sure that you would be assured to be OK? What you might think is a blessing Randall can be very much a curse as well! Yes indeed Quiksilver, my brother is a die hard Republican(most cops are) and we can have ourselves a grand ol'time *ahem* debating politics! Well LS, if you really want to go the route of the earthly events of our current weather conditions is more apocalyptic, then I'll say "OK, that's fair!", but let me just state then that God then is right now ****** off at us, for what we are doing and that is the reason of what is going on with nature lately!
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Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 28, 2004 10:25 AM
Ozone, we pay taxes that we are not even aware of. Government should live within it means. That being said, I didn't say to eliminate the income we currently receive from the income tax; I said it should be replaced with a flat tax or national sales tax (housing, food, and medicine exempt).------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 28, 2004 09:38 PM
...and who would be the ones that control or monitor this flat tax or national sales tax Randall,if it's not going to be the IRS involved?IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 28, 2004 11:47 PM
With a flat tax, the IRS would have a small role only. With a national sales tax (which I prefer, and which would be great for promoting savings in this country), the states would monitor and collect at the source (the IRS would be unemployed).------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
jwhop Knowflake Posts: 2787 From: Madeira Beach, FL USA Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 29, 2004 02:08 AM
I agree with Randall. A national sales tax would put the IRS out of business, since it's collected at the point of sale. Further, it would be a voluntary tax. There would also be tremendous savings in paperwork and the employee or accounting hours necessary to keep records for the IRS.A flat tax would eventually be graduated, winding up with the same old graduated income tax and further, the flat tax would keep the IRS in business. IP: Logged |
ozonefiller Newflake Posts: 0 From: Registered: Aug 2009
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posted September 29, 2004 01:57 PM
Maybe it will work, but we are also talking about the fact that I don't see Bush mentioning anything about this, so how do we know that Bush will vote for it?IP: Logged |
Randall Webmaster Posts: 4782 From: The Goober Galaxy Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 29, 2004 05:58 PM
You'll hear a lot more after the election. This is a very unpopular idea among accountants, tax attorneys, and of course, the Infernal Revenue Service.------------------ "Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark IP: Logged |
LibraSparkle unregistered
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posted September 29, 2004 06:03 PM
I'm with you guys on the flat tax deal. Fair is fair. I'm not sure how I feel about a national sales tax. What about those of us with existing state sales tax? We pay almost 8% here. Yay! I found something else to agree with JW about IP: Logged |
jwhop Knowflake Posts: 2787 From: Madeira Beach, FL USA Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 29, 2004 06:12 PM
From the President's acceptance speech "Another drag on our economy is the current tax code, which is a complicated mess filled with special interest loopholes, saddling our people with more than six billion hours of paperwork and headache every year. The American people deserve and our economic future demands a simpler, fairer, pro-growth system. In a new term, I will lead a bipartisan effort to reform and simplify the federal tax code." http://www.2004nycgop.org/cgi-data/speeches/files/v46q7t4op60p0109d9b8i8373arhnn0r.shtml IP: Logged | |