posted October 13, 2004 12:28 PM            

If Kerry would sign a simple form S180 to release all his military records...as Bush did, we would all know.

Conventional wisdom would say someone with nothing to hide would do so...immediately.

Conventional wisdom would also say someone hiding facts about his military record has no business running for President of the United States and Commander in Chief of US military forces, especially when the biggest component in his campaign for the Presidency is that he is a multi-decorated war hero.

All speculation and doubts about Kerry's fitness to be Commander in Chief would simply disappear with his signature on that one little form, S180, yet Kerry refuses. A lot of Americans wonder why?

Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge
BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
October 13, 2004

An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves" opens a door on a well kept secret about his military service.

The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration's secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry's discharge as being subsequent to the review of "a board of officers." This in it self is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.

According to the secretary of the Navy's document, the "authority of reference" this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry's record was "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163. "This section refers to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry's involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn't have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all. The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry's status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been no response to that inquiry.

The document is dated February 16, 1978. But Mr. Kerry's military commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966. His commitment should have terminated in 1972. It is highly unlikely that either the man who at that time was a Vietnam Veterans Against the War leader, John Kerry, requested or the Navy accepted an additional six year reserve commitment. And the Claytor document indicates proceedings to reverse a less than honorable discharge that took place sometime prior to February 1978.

The most routine time for Mr. Kerry's discharge would have been at the end of his six-year obligation, in 1972. But how was it most likely to have come about?

NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr. Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September 1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy, was easier than finding "dirt."

For example, while America was still at war, Mr. Kerry had met with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegation to the Paris Peace talks in May 1970 and then held a demonstration in July 1971 in Washington to try to get Congress to accept the enemy's seven point peace proposal without a single change. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs, a former presidential candidate, in prison just for demonstrating for peace negotiations with Germany during World War I. No court overturned his imprisonment. He had to receive a pardon from President Harding.

Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received a less than honorable discharge."

The "board of officers" review reported in the Claytor document is even more extraordinary because it came about "by direction of the President." No normal honorable discharge requires the direction of the president. The president at that time was James Carter. This adds another twist to the story of Mr. Kerry's hidden military records.

Mr. Carter's first act as president was a general amnesty for draft dodgers and other war protesters. Less than an hour after his inauguration on January 21, 1977, while still in the Capitol building, Mr. Carter signed Executive Order 4483 empowering it. By the time it became a directive from the Defense Department in March 1977 it had been expanded to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct, dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records. In those cases the directive outlined a procedure for appeal on a case by case basis before a board of officers. A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or an honorable discharge.

Mr. Kerry has repeatedly refused to sign Standard Form 180, which would allow the release of all his military records. And some of his various spokesmen have claimed that all his records are already posted on his Web site. But the Washington Post already noted that the Naval Personnel Office admitted that they were still withholding about 100 pages of files.

If Mr. Kerry was the victim of a Nixon "enemies list" hit, one might have expected him to wear it like a badge of honor, like many others such as his friend Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, CBS's Daniel Schorr, or the actor Paul Newman, who had made Mr. Colson's original list of 20 "enemies."

There are a number of categories of discharges besides honorable. There are general discharges, medical discharges, bad conduct discharges, as well as other than honorable and dishonorable discharges. There is one odd coincidence that gives some weight to the possibility that Mr. Kerry was dishonorably discharged. Mr. Kerry has claimed that he lost his medal certificates and that is why he asked that they be reissued. But when a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. And five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued.

posted October 13, 2004 02:40 PM            

BTW, the President's Air Guard unit was subject to a call to active duty in Vietnam or elsewhere...just like Kerry's Naval Reserve unit was. The difference was that Kerry's Naval Reserve unit was called to active duty and the President's was not.

Yes Mirandee, I know what you're thinking...the young Lieutenant Bush personally called President Lyndon Johnson and later President Richard Nixon and twisted their arms to NOT activate his Air Guard unit.

So Mirandee, you are not in favor of Kerry releasing his military records by signing a form S180. I think you know, as Kerry does, that there's something in those records that totally disqualifies him from ever being President and Commander in Chief.

posted October 14, 2004 12:00 AM            

Notice, not one member of the press has asked Kerry why he doesn't sign the S180 form to release all his records.

The very same press who questioned Bush relentlessly about his National Guard service going back to his campaign for Governor of Texas.

The same press who excuses Dan Rather for using forged documents in an attempt to create a scandal out of whole cloth to bring the President down.

Very strange indeed, unless you understand the American press are dedicated leftists, for the most part and wholly in the corner of John Kerry. So, not a discouraging word is heard.

Even here, there is a tendency to pooh pooh it and/or contend that what happened 30 years ago doesn't matter in the context of a presidential race of today. Problem is, with these same people, what George Bush did or did not do 30 years ago is a burning issue.

posted October 14, 2004 12:21 AM              

John Kerry has not only released his war records they were studied by the Pentagon and given the Though I got Kerry's war records at this site you can find them all over the internet including Kerry's sit kerry.com

Here are Kerry's war record documents and also Bush's record in the National Guard. I would say in comparison Kerry's war record makes Bush's look like a booger.

To get those links listed opened you will have to go to this site:
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004/docs.html

Military Service Records of Senator John F. Kerry
Records of Senator Kerry's military service in the U.S. Navy during the Vietnam War.

Military Records of Lieutenant (Junior Grade) John F. Kerry for U.S. Navy Military Service During The Vietnam War, 1968 - 1969 Note: Kerry was promoted to (Full) Lieutenant on Jan. 1, 1970 prior to requesting a discharge
Purple Heart Awards (3) (PDF) For wounds received in action on Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and Mar. 17, 1969
Silver Star (PDF) For displaying "courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism" while acting as the Officer in Charge of a Tactical Command on Feb. 28, 1969.
Bronze Star (PDF) For "professionalism, great personal courage under fire, and complete dedication to duty" in rescuing, while wounded, a man overboard following a mine explosion, directing his gunners to provide supporting fire for the rescue, and towing a damaged boat to safety under enemy fire on March 13, 1969
Acceptance of Discharge Naval Reserve (PDF) July 13, 1978
Background Information (PDF) Feb. 1, 1966
Bupers Orders to Gridley (PDF) Nov. 17, 1966
Change of Duty (PDF) July 8, 1968
DD214 (PDF)
Duty Recommendations (PDF)
Emergency Data (PDF) Sept. 12, 1967
Enlistment Contract (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966
Enlistment Photo (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Fitness Reports (PDF) Apr. 12, 1967
Honorable Discharge from Reserve (PDF) Feb. 16, 1978
Leave Record (PDF)
National Defense Service Medal (PDF)
Naval Messages (PDF) Dec. 8, 1969
Naval OCS Report (PDF)
Nuclear Weapons Training Certificate (PDF) For training from May 8 - 11, 1967
Office Order Memos (PDF) Dec. 5, 1969
Officer Candidate Agreement (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966
Order to Officer Candidate (PDF) July 14, 1966
Pay Entry Base Date (PDF) Listed as Feb. 18, 1966
Personnel Casualty Report (PDF)
Presidential Unit Citation (PDF) "For Extraordinary Herosim" from Dec. 6, 1968 to Mar. 31, 1969
Qualifying Questionnaire (PDF) Oct. 16, 1970
Recommendations for Next (PDF) Nov. 24, 1969
Record of Discharge (PDF)
Release From Active Duty (PDF) Jan. 2, 1970
Report of Home of Record (PDF) Dec. 1966
Request for History of Service (PDF) May 24, 1986
Request for Swiftboat Duty (PDF) Feb. 10, 1968
Research Sheet F4-15 (PDF) June 21, 1967
Reserve Office Appointment (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Security Clearances (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Service Record (PDF) Prepared Jan. 25, 1985
Serviceman's Life Insurance (PDF) Dec. 8-9, 1968
Statement of Service (PDF) June 21, 1967
Thrice Wounded Reassignment (PDF) March 17, 1969
Top Secret Clearance (PDF) April 28, 1969
Training School Record (PDF) Feb. 18, 1968
Transfer to Standby Reserve (PDF) March 1, 1972
Travel Payment Order (PDF) Undated
Vietnam Service Medal (PDF) April 8, 1968
(Source: John Kerry for President, Inc.).

Military Records of First Lieutenant George W. Bush for National Guard Service Between 1972 and 1973:

posted October 14, 2004 12:43 AM              

Not us Kerry supporters that are hung up about it. Case in point is that you keep putting these posts in here regarding Kerry's war record. Still trying to smear him. Give it a rest for pete's sake.

These smear tactics are what is going to lose the election for Bush because people are fed up with it. That and what is going on in this country. People who are without jobs and can't provide for their families are not all that interested in Bush being "a war President." Nor are they all that interested in Iraq. The family and feeding the kids comes first. Bush is about to find that out. It's what is going on here in this country that is the concern of the vast majority of American voters and it's what will win this election for Kerry.

Those records are all over the internet, Jwhop and they have been for a long time now. If you read anything but Newsmax you might know that.

posted October 14, 2004 12:57 AM            

Let's get ready to discharge!

Ok, I'm so sorry ... saw the title ... had a Legally Blonde 2 moment. Forgive me my amusement at the expense of this thread. Discharge.

posted October 14, 2004 12:55 PM              

Trust me if there were any dirt to find regarding what you presented here about Kerry's service, Jwhop, the Bush administration would have exhausted all their efforts in finding it and it would have come out in this campaign. They have tried to smear and discredit Kerry's service all through this campaign. The Pentagon even went over Kerry's service records for crying out loud! If anything had been found Bush would know about it. So what this amounts to is a bunch of Bush supporters who are desparately trying to get some dirt spread over the internet that will help Bush in the polls because after the debates they can see the writing on the wall.

Just to get both sides of this service story, a group called Texans for Truth,sprang up during the campaign as the result of one of the guys who served in the same National Guard unit that Bush did at the same time Bush is reported to have served. He saw Bush talking on TV one day and Bush said he had served in this unit ( 185th if I recall correctly) at the same he served. He never saw Bush on base so he called some of the guys he knew and served with and asked them if they knew Bush. None of them saw Bush on base during this time either. So they got suspicious and checked it out. From that they formed this group that call themselves Texans for Truth. They have put out a reward for anyone who can prove to them that Bush actually served in this unit during this time. They also have put out TV ads telling their story.
http://www.texansfortruth.com/news.html

News Archive

Group offers $50,000 for proof of Bush service
Today would be a fine day for him to finally answer all the questions that have dogged him since he entered public life," the group's founder, Glenn Smith, said in a statement. (CNN, Sept. 14, 2004)

New records further demonstrated Bush's failure to fulfill National Guard duties; easily distracted media focused on bogus Bush defenses
In a desperate attempt to distract attention from the overwhelming documentary evidence suggesting President George W. Bush failed to fulfill his Vietnam-era duties as a member of the Texas Air National Guard, right-wing Bush-backers have flooded the media with a stream of misinformation about Bush's Guard service. (Media Matters, Sept. 10, 2004)

Texans for Truth mobilized quickly with ad about Bush's service
In the time it took most Americans to plan their Labor Day picnics, Texans for Truth grew from a notion inside one Democratic activist's head to a full-fledged political advocacy organization with $350,000 in the bank and an attack ad targeting President Bush scheduled on television. (Chicago Tribune, Sept. 9, 2004)

Texans fighting some of biggest battles of campaign
Texans just can't stay away from a good fight. While the Lone Star State is not a key battleground state, some of the attacks in the war for the Oval Office have been launched with Texas money and manpower. The architect and chief financial backer of the controversial Swift Boat Veterans of Truth and its television ad challenging John Kerry's military record are both from Texas. Not to be outdone, a group called Texans for Truth has come out swinging this week with its own ad critical of President Bush's service in the National Guard during Vietnam. (AP, Sept. 9, 2004)

Documents Suggest Special Treatment for Bush in Guard
President Bush's Vietnam-era service in the National Guard came under renewed scrutiny on Wednesday as newfound documents emerged from his squadron commander's file that suggested favorable treatment. (The New York Times, Sept. 9, 2004)

Records Say Bush Balked at Order
President Bush failed to carry out a direct order from his superior in the Texas Air National Guard in May 1972 to undertake a medical examination that was necessary for him to remain a qualified pilot, according to documents made public yesterday. (Washington Post, Sept. 9, 2004)

Ad challenges Bush's Guard service
In the escalating ad war involving independent groups, a Texas-based organization announced Wednesday that it will air a television spot challenging whether George W. Bush ever showed up for duty while on temporary assignment in Alabama. (The Dallas Morning News, Sept. 8, 2004)

Lawsuit uncovers Bush Guard records
Democrats pounced on the latest revelations about President Bush's Air National Guard service Wednesday, saying newly released records show Bush shirked his duty and lied about it. (AP, Sept. 8, 2004)

Service Under Scrutiny
Sen. John Kerry has faced a lot of questions for several weeks about the medals he won in the Vietnam War. For opponents of President Bush, it's payback time. A new ad puts Bush's service in the National Guard back under the microscope. (ABC, Sept. 8, 2004)

Bush fell short on duty at Guard
In February, when the White House made public hundreds of pages of President Bush's military records, White House officials repeatedly insisted that the records prove that Bush fulfilled his military commitment in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War. (Boston Globe, Sept. 8, 2004)

'Texans for Truth' ad challenges Bush on Guard service
A group called Texans for Truth will release a TV ad today in which a former lieutenant colonel in the Alabama Air National Guard says neither he nor his friends saw George W. Bush when the future president was supposed to be with their unit in 1972. (USA TODAY, Sept. 7, 2004)

George W. Bush's missing year
Before there was Karl Rove, Lee Atwater or even James Baker, the Bush family's political guru was a gregarious newspaper owner and campaign consultant from Midland, Texas, named Jimmy Allison. In the spring of 1972, George H.W. Bush phoned his friend and asked a favor: Could Allison find a place on the Senate campaign he was managing in Alabama for his troublesome eldest son, the 25-year-old George W. Bush? (Salon, Sept. 2, 2004)

Questions about Bush's Guard service unanswered
At a time when Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has come under fire from a group of retired naval officers who say he lied about his combat record in Vietnam, questions about President Bush's 1968-73 stint in the Texas Air National Guard remain unresolved. (USA Today, Aug. 23, 2004)

Seeking Memories of Bush At an Alabama Air Base
Inside the Alabama Air National Guard an informal search is on for someone, anyone, who recalls encountering First Lt. George W. Bush in 1972. (Feb. 23, 2004)

Bush's service records: The score card
Forty-five months after allegations first surfaced that President Bush failed to honor his obligation to the Texas Air National Guard, the story has returned with a vengeance. As aides release a trickle of selected documents in the White House's effort to persuade the public that Bush fulfilled his obligation, the story continues to fester and questions remain unanswered. (Feb. 13, 2004)

Bush's missing year
In 1972, George W. Bush simply walked away from his pilot duties in the Texas Air National Guard. He skipped required weekend drill sessions for many months, probably for more than a year, and did not take a mandatory annual physical exam, which resulted in his being grounded. Nonetheless, Bush, the son of a well-connected Texas congressman, received an honorable discharge. (Salon, Feb. 5, 2004)

1-year gap in Bush's guard duty
After George W. Bush became governor in 1995, the Houston Air National Guard unit he had served with during the Vietnam War years honored him for his work, noting that he flew an F-102 fighter-interceptor until his discharge in October 1973. And Bush himself, in his 1999 autobiography, "A Charge to Keep," recounts the thrills of his pilot training, which he completed in June 1970. "I continued flying with my unit for the next several years," the governor wrote. But both accounts are contradicted by copies of Bush's military records, obtained by the Globe. (May 23, 2000)

posted October 14, 2004 02:20 PM            

I have noted the source of the Kerry military records you posted Mirandee. I'm not so sure the Kerry campaign is an impartial source. Neither do I accept any notion that the whole of Kerry's military record has been released because the Naval Personnel office is still holding about 100 pages of the Kerry military record they cannot release without Kerry's signature on a form S180.

We both know, as does John Kerry that there is something in that military record Kerry is trying desperately to keep hidden from American voters. Otherwise, Kerry would take the 1.5 seconds necessary to sign that S180 form so those records could be released and made public.

The military record posted on the website is a product of Kerry's requests for the release of some of his records to him personally and he selectively sorted through the records to find those which enhance his military image.

Because you apparently do not know the terms and conditions upon which candidates are accepted for service in the military reserves....which is the part of the military in which Kerry enlisted, I'm going to inform you.

An enlistment in the Reserves, Air Force, Army and Navy is for a period of 6 years and enlistees have by contract with the United States, a military obligation to serve 6 years after which, they are separated from the military by one type of discharge or another, including honorable, dishonorable, less than honorable, general and several other designations as prescribed by military rules. They also have the option of continuing in the reserves by entending or re-upping, IF their service is satisfactory. Kerry's records do not show any documentation that he extended his enlistment...none whatsoever. This is a formal and not an informal process with the attending documentation for anyone who extends his enlistment and it's completely missing from the Kerry record. Ergo, that didn't happen.

Let me assure you Mirandee that I personally went to the site and personally read the relevant documents.....except for the "record of discharge" document, which strangely enough DOES NOT take me to the PDF document when the link is clicked. It does take me to another page on FindLaw.com having nothing whatsoever to do with the Kerry military records.

From the records you posted yourself Mirandee, it is clear Kerry enlisted in the Naval Reserves in 1966 and was discharged in 1978. That's 12 years Mirandee and not 6 as the enlistment contract calls for. There is no document showing any reenlistment or any extension of service for John Kerry. There are no records showing Kerry was in any way still attached to the Naval Reserve after 1972....except the very strange discharge document dated 1978. There is a 6 year gap in Kerry's record....if he was still attached in any way to the Naval Reserve between the years of 1972 and 1978.

The record suggests there was a problem with Kerry's discharge from the military in 1978 instead of the mandated 1972, mandated by contract between Kerry and the United States.

Within those 100 unreleased pages of the Kerry military record is the answer to exactly what that problem was and that is the entire reason Kerry refuses to sign that S180 to release all his military records and make them public.....as the President has done.

I have boldened the relevant documents you posted Mirandee. You are welcome to spin the facts any way you wish but you're going to have to get past those missing documents Kerry will not release to be credible on the subject....in light of what is actually on the record.

BTW, there is a military investigation of Kerry's records going on now, the second such investigation of the facts surrounding Kerry's military record. Perhaps you missed that.

quote:

---

Military Service Records of Senator John F. Kerry
Records of Senator Kerry's military service in the U.S. Navy during the Vietnam War.

Military Records of Lieutenant (Junior Grade) John F. Kerry for U.S. Navy Military Service During The Vietnam War, 1968 - 1969 Note: Kerry was promoted to (Full) Lieutenant on Jan. 1, 1970 prior to requesting a discharge
Purple Heart Awards (3) (PDF) For wounds received in action on Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and Mar. 17, 1969
Silver Star (PDF) For displaying "courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism" while acting as the Officer in Charge of a Tactical Command on Feb. 28, 1969.
Bronze Star (PDF) For "professionalism, great personal courage under fire, and complete dedication to duty" in rescuing, while wounded, a man overboard following a mine explosion, directing his gunners to provide supporting fire for the rescue, and towing a damaged boat to safety under enemy fire on March 13, 1969
Acceptance of Discharge Naval Reserve (PDF) July 13, 1978
Background Information (PDF) Feb. 1, 1966
Bupers Orders to Gridley (PDF) Nov. 17, 1966
Change of Duty (PDF) July 8, 1968
DD214 (PDF)
Duty Recommendations (PDF)
Emergency Data (PDF) Sept. 12, 1967
Enlistment Contract (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966
Enlistment Photo (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Fitness Reports (PDF) Apr. 12, 1967
Honorable Discharge from Reserve (PDF) Feb. 16, 1978
Leave Record (PDF)
National Defense Service Medal (PDF)
Naval Messages (PDF) Dec. 8, 1969
Naval OCS Report (PDF)
Nuclear Weapons Training Certificate (PDF) For training from May 8 - 11, 1967
Office Order Memos (PDF) Dec. 5, 1969
Officer Candidate Agreement (PDF) Feb. 18, 1966
Order to Officer Candidate (PDF) July 14, 1966
Pay Entry Base Date (PDF) Listed as Feb. 18, 1966
Personnel Casualty Report (PDF)
Presidential Unit Citation (PDF) "For Extraordinary Herosim" from Dec. 6, 1968 to Mar. 31, 1969
Qualifying Questionnaire (PDF) Oct. 16, 1970
Recommendations for Next (PDF) Nov. 24, 1969
Record of Discharge (PDF) Note*** not found on the linked site.
Release From Active Duty (PDF) Jan. 2, 1970
Report of Home of Record (PDF) Dec. 1966
Request for History of Service (PDF) May 24, 1986
Request for Swiftboat Duty (PDF) Feb. 10, 1968
Research Sheet F4-15 (PDF) June 21, 1967
Reserve Office Appointment (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Security Clearances (PDF) Dec. 16, 1966
Service Record (PDF) Prepared Jan. 25, 1985
Serviceman's Life Insurance (PDF) Dec. 8-9, 1968
Statement of Service (PDF) June 21, 1967
Thrice Wounded Reassignment (PDF) March 17, 1969
Top Secret Clearance (PDF) April 28, 1969
Training School Record (PDF) Feb. 18, 1968
Transfer to Standby Reserve (PDF) March 1, 1972
Travel Payment Order (PDF) Undated
Vietnam Service Medal (PDF) April 8, 1968
(Source: John Kerry for President, Inc.).

---

Edit******

Mirandee, there is no amount of spin you can apply to get past the fact Kerry has not and will not sign form S180 to release the totality of his military record.

There is also no amount of spin you can apply to get past the fact that the President DID sign form S180 authorizing the release of his military record in it's totality.

If, as you say, Kerry signed up for the Naval Ready Reserve Mirandee, Naval Standby Reserve or any other status which would keep Kerry connected to the US military, where is the enlistment document showing that he did?

Now, Mirandee, it's been established beyond doubt that the documents Dan Rather used in his hit piece on 60 minutes were forged, false, phony and that a federal crime was committed by the person or persons who forged them.

posted October 14, 2004 10:59 PM              

Actually, Jwhop, I was just about to get into all of this, having knowledge of the topic myself but I am glad that I read your post first. It could not have been more thorough or accurate. Once again, you've got it covered!

posted October 14, 2004 11:48 PM            

There is a mystery about Kerry's record, both his active duty in Vietnam and the time he spent in the actual Reserves before the spring of 1972 but the picture is beginning to flesh itself out somewhat.

I'm quite sure Nixon wanted to get Kerry. The question is, was there anything Kerry was doing that was against the law or against the Uniform Code of Military Justice during the period when he came off active duty and the time he spent in the Reserves before his enlistment expired.

The record is replete with incidence after incidence where Kerry could have been charged with an offense while still attached to the Navy. Conduct Unbecoming an Officer is one. Unauthorized negotiations with an enemy is another. Aiding and abetting an enemy is another. I'm sure there are lots more in the regs that Kerry could have been charged with and court-martialed.

I think the only reason that didn't happen is because he was from a prominent family and also had the backing of the Kennedy family.

But something did happen, of that I'm pretty positive and his actions in not releasing his records to the public make it pretty clear it wasn't a traffic citation. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of an actual court-martial but he could have been brought up on charges in a special inquiry and been found guilty but without the hearing officer recommending a court-martial.....something like a plea agreement. I think we will know one day...but I'd like to know before the elections.

posted October 15, 2004 03:11 AM              

Quote:

I have noted the source of the Kerry military records you posted Mirandee. I'm not so sure the Kerry campaign is an impartial source. Neither do I accept any notion that the whole of Kerry's military record has been released because the Naval Personnel office is still holding about 100 pages of the Kerry military record they cannot release without Kerry's signature on a form S180.

Fact is regardless of what Quik may think, you don't know everything. I did not get the record of Kerry's service from his campaign. I got it from the site I gave which is: [URL=http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004/docs.html]
Who else is going to hand over the documents if not John Kerry himself?

Quote:

Mirandee, there is no amount of spin you can apply to get past the fact Kerry has not and will not sign form S180 to release the totality of his military record.

There is no amount of spin that you can apply either,Jwhop to get past the fact that Bush has not and will not come forward with any documents or explanation for his "lost year." Must have been due to a blackout from alcohol. I mean if we can go back 35 years and speculate on everything in Kerry's past I can go back to Bush's alcoholic days.

I didn't read all the information you gave me on how the military operates unless you can supply me with something that proves you are a leading authority on it. What are your credentials? Other than speculation and opinion that is.

The Pentagon is going over Kerry's records. If they found something in there you would have heard about it. Rumsfeld would have made it public knowledge.

Please note: The following four documents were originally obtained by CBS News and sent to FindLaw by the White House on September 8, 2004. However, CBS News issued a statement Monday, September 20, 2004, stating in part that the network "cannot prove the authenticity of documents used in a 60 Minutes story about President Bush's National Guard service and . . . airing the story was a 'mistake' that CBS regretted."

That note was clearly attached to the documents I supplied here, Jwhop. See, you don't know everything. You should read more carefully.

Quote:

There is a mystery about Kerry's record, both his active duty in Vietnam and the time he spent in the actual Reserves before the spring of 1972 but the picture is beginning to flesh itself out somewhat.

There is a mystery about Bush's records too, Jwhop. It deals with a missing year too. The only mystery about Kerry's record is the one created by the Republicans because Bush's records have a missing year. Another mystery to me is if Bush flew a plane like the "flying coffin" as you say (that was in his book and has been disproven incidently look it up) how come he doesn't still fly? Most pilots love to fly and never give it up. Does he even have his own airplane? He has enough money to own one. Another one is why you accuse anyone who does not support Bush and point out why they don't support him as being "blinded with their hate" and you cannot see the speck in your own eye? Hmmmmmm Seems to me you need a cane and a seeing eye dog yourself.

Quote:

Mirandee, you have the most unfortunate habit of posting information that directly attacks your own positions and assertions. I'm not complaining about that mind you, just pointing out to you the ease with which your arguments are countered with your own information.

Please point out to me where what I posted contradicted my position. My position was that Kerry has come forward with his records. I proved he has.

posted October 15, 2004 12:33 PM            

Now here's the thing Mirandee, I know some people like you too and when people like you and others on the left come up in conversations with my friends and family, there's a lot of speculation as to the cause of their political ignorance or if it's political ignorance at all rather than a total lack of truthfulness and intellectual honesty.

Just for the record Mirandee, there is no one in my family with a leftist viewpoint that we have to patronize and tolerate. I am eternally thankful those in my family have sufficient intelligence, intellectual honesty and intellectual curiosity combined with a scope of knowledge necessary to see right through the lies of the left on a range of issues that boggle the mind. We have some heated discussions about issues but no one ever puts forth a specious or lying argument to make their points.

As for your contention that Kerry "enlisted" in or signed up for the Standby Reserves, that's false. Kerry was given the option of voluntarily signing up for the Ready Reserves or as the document states, Kerry would be assigned to either the Standby Reserves--Active or Standby Reserves--Inactive depending on certain factors in his categories...that were not specified in the notice Kerry received from the Department of the Navy. Perhaps there was an attachment with that notice stating what those categories were but Kerry didn't provide it.

The record is clear that Kerry did not take any action on that notice whatsoever and as a result of his inaction to complete and authorize a transfer to the Ready Reserves, the Department of the Navy by and through the Chief of Naval Personnel sent Kerry a notice on August 16, 1972 stating that as of July 1, 1972, Kerry HAD been transferred to the Standby Reserves--Inactive, referencing a document entitled Bupers 1tr Pers-B871-L35 dated 1 March 1972, a document which Kerry has not made available for publication.

Your statement that Kerry took some action to "sign up" for the Standby Reserves is false as the record shows. Kerry took no action and as a result was automatically assigned to the Standby Reserves--Inactive.

I know there are some who think they can post any kind of trash they wish, reference some site or document and that no one will actually go there and check what they say. Wrong, because if it matters, some of us will go and have a look for ourselves.
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/trnsfr2stndyrsrv.pdf

A discharge from the Navy would have followed immediately or pretty damned quick after Kerry was assigned to Standby Reserve--Inactive status but in no way possible would it take an additional 6 years for that discharge to come through the system

Your statement you did not get Kerry's records from the Kerry campaign is a distortion of the facts Mirandee. FindLaw got the documents from the Kerry campaign, not through a records search they did because the information posted there could only be released by Kerry himself due to the fact Kerry has not signed a form 180 and those records are private and confidential requiring Kerry himself to request them personally....and they were sent to Kerry, personally.

The inescapable and indisputable truth is that John Kerry refused and continues to refuse to sign a form 180 which would make his military records available for those who wish to view them...including the press.

The inescapable and indisputable truth is that President Bush has signed that same form 180 releasing the records to the press and others who wish to view them. Further, Bush has answered every question about his service record put to him, including what he was doing in Alabama and why he requested a transfer there. It also turns out that Bush had almost 3 times the number of units of service necessary to complete his military obligation.

This is one of the lying arguments the left attempts to put forth...that Bush refuses to account for his time in the Air National Guard and refuses to release his records....even in the face of a general authorization to the Military to release ALL his records, both service and health in the possession of the various branches of the United States military as evidenced by a signed DD-180, which is that authorization. Further, that authorization is not merely a request for those records to be released to him...as Kerry did but an authorization to make those records directly available to the press or any organization who wishes to see them.

Your assertion that Kerry has come forward with his military records is false...considering there are known to be at least 100 pages of his military records that he refuses to release by signing a DD-180 which leaves those records in the private and confidential category.

There may be much more than 100 pages, but the 100 page number is known because they are in the possession of Naval Personnel and they said so.

Rumsfeld may have a look at Kerry's records Mirandee but neither Rumsfeld or anyone else in the Bush administration or the Bush campaign will ever say a word about what's in there without a signed authorization by Kerry to make them generally available to the public.

Unlike Kerry, the Kerry campaign and democrat sycophants, Bush has sufficient integrity to not violate Kerry's rights to privacy and confidentially.

Integrity, character and strength, those vital attributes for those who would be President and Commander in Chief, attributes which Kerry lacks are the primary reason Bush is President, Algore is not and Kerry will not be.

The question remains. What is Kerry hiding from the American people?

posted October 15, 2004 01:37 PM              

Quote:

Now here's the thing Mirandee, I know some people like you too and when people like you and others on the left come up in conversations with my friends and family, there's a lot of speculation as to the cause of their political ignorance or if it's political ignorance at all rather than a total lack of truthfulness and intellectual honesty.

Funny, Jwhop, but I have the same conversations with my family and friends about people like you and your political ignorance and also your blind alliegance to a leader that you mistakenly call "Patriotism." Many Germans had a blind alliegance to Hitler too.

It was you who said that I didn't like you, Jwhop. I didn't say that. Unlike you I can separate people from the political parties they support. I don't go around banning movies, musical CD's, or products just because the person supports Bush either. Only Bush supporters do that.

I'm not out to make you lose sleep, Jwhop so it's good that you don't. I'm just trying to open that closed mind of yours a bit and make you think beyond partisanship for a change. I do happen to percieve that like Bush you are more into control than dialogue. The reason I think that is that you can never find a common ground to work from in your posts. Instead of showing respect for anyone else's opinions even if it differs from yours all you do is tell then how wrong they are and how right you are and label them. You label people so you can dismiss them and go on thinking of how right you are. Bush does the same thing.

What I said about brother in law had nothing to do with his politics. What I meant is that he is a know it all like you and he is always right and everyone else is always wrong. I would bet that like him the first word to come out of your mouth when anyone says anything at all is "No."

QUOTE

We have some heated discussions about issues but no one ever puts forth a specious or lying argument to make their points.

Thank you, the heated discussions proves my point.

posted October 29, 2004 01:18 AM            

“John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps, took torture to avoid saying.”

U.S. Navy Commander (Ret.) Paul Galanti flew 97 combat missions before being shot down and captured by the North Vietnamese in June 1966. He was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for 2,432 days -- nearly seven years. Most of those years were spent in a 7-by-7 isolation cell.

He was featured on the cover of Newsweek when he returned home to Richmond a freed man in 1973. He was a Navy pilot and war hero, decorated with two Purple Hearts, two Legion of Merit medals, a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and several other honors.

Today, as one of the most prominent ex-POWs in Virginia and the country, he has appeared in two Swift Vets and POWs for Truth television ads, as well as in the documentary “Stolen Honor: Wounds that Never Heal.” He said he participated in these projects “to expose the truth” about presidential candidate John Kerry.

I spoke to him this week during a break between his interviews with several national news outlets and radio talk shows.

Cmdr. Paul Galanti first heard John Kerry’s 1971 Senate “testimony” about alleged war atrocities committed by U.S. troops when he was a POW in Vietnam and his captors played it over the public address system at the “Hanoi Hilton” prison camp. For years, the North Vietnamese tortured POWs to try to get them to admit they were war criminals and had razed villages and tortured and killed many innocent civilians -- crimes they never committed.

Much of that testimony is now discredited (even Kerry distances himself from it) and -- according to Galanti, veterans groups, and archive video footage of Kerry preparing for the testimony -- was made up by Kerry and his group, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

In one of the Swift Vets TV ads, Galanti says, “John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps, took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us.”

Later in the ad, he states, “He dishonored his country and, more importantly, the people he served with. He just sold them out.”

He has called Kerry a traitor on national TV.

He believes that the presidential candidate may have been dishonorably discharged from the Navy, and that could be the reason he isn’t releasing all of his service records.

Several investigative journalists, such as Thomas Lipscomb of the New York Sun, have pointed out that only some of Kerry’s military records are posted on his campaign Web site.

“Something is really squirrelly about the documentation on his website,” Galanti said.

Journalists also point out a document that shows his discharge was reviewed by a "board of officers." According to experts, no such review should be necessary for an honorable discharge. The review was conducted under U.S. law that pertains to grounds for involuntary separation from military service.

The document was also dated February 1978, eight years after Kerry was discharged, and it was signed by President Carter’s secretary of the Navy. The significance is that Carter gave amnesty to all draft evaders and war protesters on his first day in office in 1977, and reversed many “less than honorable” discharges through review boards shortly thereafter.

Galanti has written an op-ed piece that is scheduled to appear in the Richmond Times-Dispatch this Sunday. It’s a letter to John Kerry, asking him to release his military service records, including his original discharge papers.

I asked Galanti if it was difficult to talk about his 7-year North Vietnamese imprisonment in TV ads and media interviews.

“I came out of the experience a better man, thinking that no matter what happens from now on, it’s all downhill from here.”

He has actually been talking about his experiences for years as a motivational speaker for business groups, schoolchildren and others.

His reaction now to Kerry’s 1971 Senate testimony about war atrocities allegedly committed by U.S. troops: “It makes me angry to hear that testimony again. He disgraced the uniform.”

I asked him if he has been threatened or lost friends over his outspoken views against the presidential candidate. He said he hasn’t, other than two phone calls and a few negative emails. “I’m too nice a guy” to get hate mail, he said.

He has been attacked by the Kerry camp, though. In 2003, the secretary of Veterans Affairs reappointed him to the Advisory Committee on Former POWs. The Kerry campaign alleged that appointment should have precluded his work with the Swift Vets ads, and was proof of his collusion with the Bush campaign, in violation of federal campaign regulations. He said the campaign was “grasping at straws” and they haven’t pursued it.

Do he and the Swift Vets and POWs have any plans if Kerry gets elected? He says none that he knows of, but he personally is planning on returning to retired life.

When I asked what he thought Kerry would do with the war on terror if he became president, Galanti answered, “Nobody knows what he would do. All those years in the U.S. Senate and he never demonstrated much leadership. I can only imagine that he will vacillate, compromise and fumble around, waiting to get direction from other nations.”

However, if Kerry loses and tries to run again in Massachusetts for the Senate, he jokingly said that he and other vets would get into several RVs, drive to Massachusetts, and work for his defeat. (He believes some vets will actually do it.)

“John Kerry is a self-serving egotist,” he said. “He lives the exact opposite of the motto ‘All for one, and one for all.’ ”

Galanti can’t be labeled a bitter George Bush partisan, though -- he ran Republican senator and fellow ex-POW John McCain’s presidential campaign in Virginia during the 2000 primaries (working against Bush), and he endorsed Democrat Gov. Mark Warner.

Why would a retired military officer come out so publicly to work against a presidential candidate, and risk condemnation, slurs and investigations into his personal life, just to help the Swift Vets get their message out?

“I’m not doing this for George Bush. I’m doing this because I want to save this country from John Kerry.”