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Author Topic:   Growing Problem for Military Recruiters: Parents
Tranquil Poet
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posted June 03, 2005 03:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Updated: 11:44 AM EDT
Growing Problem for Military Recruiters: Parents

By DAMIEN CAVE, The New York Times



AP

Some parents are incensed that military recruiters have access to children at their schools.

Jump Below:
· Quotes From the Controversy

More Military Coverage:
· A Move to Retain More Enlistees
· Some Vets Struggle for Jobs

Talk About It: Post | Chat
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Rachel Rogers, a single mother of four in upstate New York, did not worry about the presence of National Guard recruiters at her son's high school until she learned that they taught students how to throw hand grenades, using baseballs as stand-ins. For the last month she has been insisting that administrators limit recruiters' access to children.

Orlando Terrazas, a former truck driver in Southern California, said he was struck when his son told him that recruiters were promising students jobs as musicians. Mr. Terrazas has been trying since September to hang posters at his son's public school to counter the military's message.

Meanwhile, Amy Hagopian, co-chairwoman of the Parent-Teacher-Student Association at Garfield High School in Seattle, has been fighting against a four-year-old federal law that requires public schools to give military recruiters the same access to students as college recruiters get, or lose federal funding. She also recently took a few hours off work to stand beside recruiters at Garfield High and display pictures of injured American soldiers from Iraq.

"We want to show the military that they are not welcome by the P.T.S.A. in this building," she said. "We hope other P.T.S.A.'s will follow."

Two years into the war in Iraq, as the Army and Marines struggle to refill their ranks, parents have become boulders of opposition that recruiters cannot move.

Mothers and fathers around the country said they were terrified that their children would have to be killed - or kill - in a war that many see as unnecessary and without end.

Around the dinner table, many parents said, they are discouraging their children from serving.

At schools, they are insisting that recruiters be kept away, incensed at the access that they have to adolescents easily dazzled by incentive packages and flashy equipment.

A Department of Defense survey last November, the latest, shows that only 25 percent of parents would recommend military service to their children, down from 42 percent in August 2003.

"Parents," said one recruiter in Ohio who insisted on anonymity because the Army ordered all recruiters not to talk to reporters, "are the biggest hurdle we face."


Quotes From the Controversy


"The recruiters are in your face, in the library, in the lunchroom. They're contacting the most vulnerable students and recruiting them to go to war.''
-- Stephen Ludwig, Seattle parent

"I had one father say if he saw me on his doorstep I better have some protection on me. We see a lot of hostility.''
-- Ohio recruiter

"The point is not whether I support the troops. It's about whether a well-organized propaganda machine should be targeted at children and enforced by the schools."
-- Rachel Rogers, High Falls, N.Y., parent

Parents "don't realize that they have a role in helping make the all-volunteer force success. If you don't, you're faced with the alternative, and the alternative is what they were opposed to the most, mandatory service.''
-- Col. David Slotwinski, ex-chief of staff for Army recruiting

Source: The New York Times

Legally, there is little a parent can do to prevent a child over 18 from enlisting. But in interviews, recruiters said that it was very hard to sign up a young man or woman over the strong objections of a parent.

The Pentagon - faced with using only volunteers during a sustained conflict, an effort rarely tried in American history - is especially vexed by a generation of more activist parents who have no qualms about projecting their own views onto their children.

Lawrence S. Wittner, a military historian at the State University of New York, Albany, said today's parents also had more power.

"With the draft, there were limited opportunities for avoiding the military, and parents were trapped, reduced to draft counseling or taking their children to Canada," he said. "But with the volunteer armed force, what one gets is more vigorous recruitment and more opportunities to resist."

Some of that opportunity was provoked by the very law that was supposed to make it easier for recruiters to reach students more directly. No Child Left Behind, which was passed by Congress in 2001, requires schools to turn over students' home phone numbers and addresses unless parents opt out. That is often the spark that ignites parental resistance.

Recruiters, in interviews over the past six months, said that opposition can be fierce. Three years ago, perhaps 1 or 2 of 10 parents would hang up immediately on a cold call to a potential recruit's home, said a recruiter in New York who, like most others interviewed, insisted on anonymity to protect his career. "Now," he said, "in the past year or two, people hang up all the time. "

Several recruiters said they had even been threatened with violence.

"I had one father say if he saw me on his doorstep I better have some protection on me," said a recruiter in Ohio. "We see a lot of hostility."

Military officials are clearly concerned. In an interview last month, Maj. Gen. Michael D. Rochelle, commander of Army recruiting, said parental resistance could put the all-volunteer force in jeopardy. When parents and other influential adults dissuade young people from enlisting, he said, "it begs the question of what our national staying power might be for what certainly appears to be a long fight."

In response, the Army has rolled out a campaign aimed at parents, with television ads and a Web site that includes videos of parents talking about why they supported their children's decision to enlist. General Rochelle said that it was still too early to tell if it is making a difference.

But Col. David Slotwinski, a former chief of staff for Army recruiting, said that the Army faced an uphill battle because many baby boomer parents are inclined to view military service negatively, especially during a controversial war.

"They don't realize that they have a role in helping make the all-volunteer force successful," said Colonel Slotwinski, who retired in 2004. "If you don't, you're faced with the alternative, and the alternative is what they were opposed to the most, mandatory service."

Many of the mothers and fathers most adamant about recruitment do have a history of opposition to Vietnam. Amy Hagopian, 49, a professor of public health at the University of Washington, and her husband, Stephen Ludwig, 57, a carpenter, said that they and many parents who contest recruiting at Garfield High in Seattle have a history of antiwar sentiment and see their efforts as an extension of their pacifism.

But, he added, parents are also reacting to what they see as the military's increased intrusion into the lives of their children.

"The recruiters are in your face, in the library, in the lunchroom," he said. "They're contacting the most vulnerable students and recruiting them to go to war."

The access is legally protected. As recently as 2000, said one former recruiter in California, it was necessary to dig through the trash at high schools and colleges to find students' names and phone numbers. But No Child Left Behind mandates that school districts can receive federal funds only if they grant military recruiters "the same access to secondary school students" as is provided to colleges and employers.


More From the Times


· Growing Problem for Military Recruiters: Parents
· Anger in Cleveland as Fire Is Ruled Arson
· For Some, a Return Home; for Others, No Home to Go To


So although the Garfield P.T.S.A. voted last month to ban military recruiters from the school and its 1,600 students, the Seattle school district could not sign on to the idea without losing at least $15 million in federal education funds.

"The parents have chosen to take a stand, but we still have to comply with No Child Left Behind," said Peter Daniels, communications director for the district. In Whittier, a city of 85,000 10 miles southeast of East Los Angeles, about a dozen families last September accused the district of failing to properly advise parents that they had the right to deny recruiters access to their children's personal information.

Mr. Terrazas, 51, the father of a Whittier High School junior, said the notification was buried among other documents in a preregistration packet sent out last summer.

"It didn't say that the military has access to students' information," he said. "It just said to write a letter if you didn't want your kid listed in a public directory."

A few years ago, after Sept. 11, the issue might not have gotten Mr. Terrazas's attention. His father served in World War II, his brother in Vietnam, and he said that he had always supported having a strong military able to defend the country.

But after the war in Iraq yielded no weapons of mass destruction, and as the death toll has mounted, he cannot reconcile the pride he feels at seeing marines deliver aid after the tsunami in Asia with his concern over the effort in Baghdad, he said.

"Because of the situation we're in now, I would not want my son to serve," he said. "It's the policy that I'm against, not the military."

After Mr. Terrazas and several other parents expressed their concern about the school's role in recruitment, the district drafted a new policy. On May 23, it introduced a proposed opt-out form for the district's 14,000 students.

The form, said Ron Carruth, Whittier's assistant superintendent, includes an explanation of the law, and boxes that parents can check to indicate they do not want information on their child released to either the military, colleges, vocational schools or other sources of recruitment. Mr. Carruth said that next year the district would also prohibit all recruiters from appearing in classrooms, and keep the military ones from bringing equipment like Humvees onto school grounds, a commonly used recruitment tool.

He said that some of the information from the 11-by-17-inch poster that Mr. Terrazas sought to post, including how to verify recruiters' claims about financial benefits, will be part of a pamphlet created by the school for students.

And at least a dozen other districts in the area, Mr. Carruth added, up from three in November, are considering similar plans.

Unlike Mr. Terrazas, Ms. Rogers, 37, of High Falls in the upper Hudson Valley, had not thought much about the war before she began speaking out in her school district. She had been "politically apathetic," she said. She did not know about No Child Left Behind's reporting requirements, nor did she opt out.

When her son, Jonah, said he was thinking of sitting out a gym class that was to be led by National Guard recruiters, Ms. Rogers, who works part time as a clerk at the local motor vehicles office and receives public assistance, said she told him not to be "a rebel without a cause."

"In this world," she recalled telling him, "we need a strong military."

But then she heard from her son that the class was mandatory, and that recruiters were handing out free T-shirts and key chains - "Like, 'Hey, let's join the military. It's fun,' " she said.

First she called the Rondout Valley High School to complain about the "false advertising," she said, then her congressman.

On May 24, at the first school board meeting since the gym class, she read aloud from a recruiting handbook that advised recruiters on ways to gain maximum access to schools, including offering doughnuts. A high school senior, Katie Coalla, 18, stood up at one point and tearfully defended the recruiters, receiving applause from the crowd of about 70, but Ms. Rogers persisted.

"Pulling in this need for heartstrings patriotic support is clouding the issue," she said. "The point is not whether I support the troops. It's about whether a well-organized propaganda machine should be targeted at children and enforced by the schools."

Laura Cummins, in Accord, N.Y., contributed reporting for this article.



06-03-05 10:15 EDT

Copyright © 2005 The New York Times Company.

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TINK
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posted June 03, 2005 10:33 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've seen this stuff happen firsthand too many times to count and it is a sorry, sorry sight. Very bad form on the part of the military, I think.

O'Reilly had a small segment about it with Rachel Rogers tonight. He really laid into her, accusing her of not wanting to protect her country. Poor thing was a bit shook up.

"The point is not whether I support the troops. It's about whether a well-organized propaganda machine should be targeted at children and enforced by the schools."

Exactly.

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Petron
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posted June 03, 2005 10:50 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this student was a big problem for recruiters too...heheh


**********

How Far Will The Army Go?

Apr 28, 2005 9:59 pm US/Mountain
How far will U.S. Army recruiters go to bring young men and women into their ranks? An Arvada West High School senior recently decided to find out. The following is CBS4 Investigator Rick Sallinger's report..

ARVADA, Colo. (CBS4) -- Last month the U.S. Army failed to meet its goal of 6,800 new troops.

Aware of this trend, David McSwane, a local high school student, decided he wanted to find out to what extent some recruiters would go to sign up soldiers who were not up to grade.

McSwane, 17, is actually just the kind of teenager the military would like. He's a high school journalist and honor student at Arvada West High School. But McSwane decided he wanted to see "how far the Army would go during a war to get one more solider."

McSwane contacted his local army recruiting office in Golden with a scenario he created. He told a recruiter that he was a dropout and didn't have a high school diploma.

"No problem," the recruiter explained. He suggested that McSwane create a fake diploma from a non-existent school.

McSwane recorded the recruiter saying that on the phone.

"It can be like Faith Hill Baptist School or something -- whatever you choose," the recruiter said.

As instructed, McSwane went on the computer to a Web site and for $200 arranged to have a phony diploma created that certified him as a graduate of Faith Hill Baptist High School, the very name the recruiter suggested. It came complete with a fake grade transcript.

"What was your reaction to them encouraging you to get a phony diploma?" CBS4's Rick Sallinger asked.

"I was shocked," McSwane said. "I'm sitting there looking at a poster that says 'Integrity, Honor, Respect' and he is telling me to lie."

McSwane also pretended he had a drug problem when he spoke with the recruiter.

The Army does not accept enlistees with drug problems.

"I have a problem with drugs," McSwane said, referring to the conversation he had with the recruiter. "I can't kick the habit ... just marijuana."

"[The recruiter] said 'Not a problem,' just take this detox ... he said he would pay half of it ... told me where to go."

Drug testers CBS4 contacted insist it doesn't work, but the recruiter claimed in another recorded phone conversation that taking "detoxification capsules and liquid" would help McSwane pass the required test.

"The two times I had the guys use it, it has worked both times," the recruiter said in the recorded conversation. "We didn't have to worry about anything."

Then the original recruiter was transferred and another recruiter, Sgt. Tim Pickel, picked up the ball.

A friend of McSwane shot videotape as Pickel drove McSwane to a store where he purchased the so-called detox kit.

CBS4 then went to the Army recruiting office and confronted Sgt. Pickel. CBS4 played him a conversation McSwane had with Pickel on the phone. The transcript of that conversation follows:

Pickel: When you said about the one problem that you had, what does it consist of?
McSwane: "Marijuana."
Pickel: Oh, OK so nothing major?
McSwane: Yeah, he said he would take me down to get that stuff, I mean I have no idea what it is, so you would have to show me. Is that a problem?
Pickel: No, not at all.

Pickel quickly referred CBS4 to his superiors.

CBS4 then played the tapes and showed the video to Lt. Col. Jeffrey Brodeur, who heads army recruiting for the region.

"Let me sum up all of this with one word: unacceptable, completely unacceptable," Brodeur said.

Hearing recruiters talking about phony diplomas and ways to beat drug tests left Brodeur more than a little disturbed.

"Let me tell you something sir, I'm a soldier and have been a soldier for 20 years," Brodeur said. "This violates trust, it violates integrity, it violates honor and it violates duty."

The army says it is conducting a full investigation. Brodeur said there is no pressure or punishment for recruiters if quotas are not met. They are, however, rewarded when their goals are surpassed.
http://news4colorado.com/localnews/local_story_118125046.html

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TINK
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posted June 03, 2005 11:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh dear God.

Honestly, I have seen them in action and the closest description I can think of is ... yuck I hate to say it but ...*shivers* the Jehovah's Witnesses. Don't get me wrong, they're polite and all but ... this is the sort of thing where young men and woman should be seeking them out not the other way around. Making yourself known and pleading, bribing and intimidating are very different things.

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Petron
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posted June 03, 2005 11:23 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


"Intimidation is the sincerest form of battery"

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Eleanore
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From: Okinawa, Japan
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posted June 04, 2005 02:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The military is a career choice. It makes sense to me that it would be made known as a choice to students in highschool who are preparing for their future careers. College is pushed down kids throats from the time they're in grade school as the seemingly only option and not even for the sake of learning ... go to school, do well, go to college, make a lot of money is the general idea. However, not all kids go to college. Aside from not being able to afford it, plenty just don't want to go and just as many are not cut out for it and end up dropping out if they do go. If these kids couldn't be indoctrinated and programmed to take the "sensible" and acceptable route to success throughout the course of their entire education, I don't see how the presence of military recruiters in highschool is going to be able to do more.
Some of those parents complained about propaganda in regards to benefits and incentives the military recruiters present ... guess what? Joining the military provides more benefits and incentives than most other careers from the very beginning. It's not a lie, it just happens to be more appealing than a lot of other options to certain people. Believe it or not, there are people who love being in the military.
My highschool had FBI agents show up for presentations during career week, etc. ... there were also cops, firemen, business men, musicians, the military, etc. Well, let's just block out the FBI because they kill people and keep secrets. Wait, cops kill people, too, and their lives are constantly at risk. Oh, there we go, firemen also risk their lives regularly. Can't have our kids doing that. Businessmen ... do you really want your children growing up to work for corrupt corporate America? And musicians? That's not a sensible career ... so few actually "make it big" you'd be better off doing something else.
C'mon. These are biases that some parents have about some career choices. That's all. Yes, the military is a big deal. But now that we're at war, most people are against their kids joining the military and see the very real benefits as nothing but a lure, nevermind that they're real and very competitive compared to other careers. Regardless of right or wrong reasons for the war, most parents are just scared of their kids dying ... and that's completely understandable. But kids are not stupid and they are not as easily duped as some like to think. Should your parents really make your choices for you? Should your parents shelter you from options in your life because they are biased against them? Unfortunately, people who think like this fail to realize that parents don't own their kids and that their kids have the right to follow any career path they like. So why try to censor the options available?
It makes no sense. You've known your kids their entire lives. They know how you feel about war and the military etc. You have more influence on them than anyone else. But when they possibly show signs of thinking for themselves and disagreeing with you we need to keep all those "bad" things away from them? Give me a break.
Don't want your personal info handed out to recruiters? There is allowance for that. Take it. But don't complain that you were "unaware" of what was going on ... your ignorance is your own responsibility. If you don't keep up with what's going on in your kids' school and what new laws are being passed that's nobody's fault but your own.
We have a volunteer military force and thank the stars for that. However, we do need a military. It's just a simple, logical fact that if enough people don't volunteer for a long enough time, we may have to resort to mandatory service, even if it's only temporary. So, you have the option of allowing your kids to see what career choices are available to them despite the fact that they may choose something you disapprove of or you have the option that through sheer ignorance of their choices, enough people won't volunteer for service and your own kid may end up being forced to join. Is there any sense in option number 2?
Like it or not, America has a military force. Like it or not, America is at war. Like it or not, your kids have every right to join the military if they wish to do so, for whatever reason.
Besides all that, however, you must also remember that the military operates via ranks and your pay is directly related to your rank. It is completely practical for an 18 year old adult to join the military and hope to actually make a decent living for their rank at that time. A 25 year old (without a college degree) joining at the lowest rank would be at a disadvantage. Why? Lifestyle. An 18 year old is less likely to be married and have kids than a 25 year old. They are less likely to have incurred stupid amounts of debt. They are more likely to be comfortable living in a dorm environment with a bunch of other 18 year olds. An 18 year old is less likely to waste money on things like beer and clubbing since they are underage and it's illegal ... and who wants to end up being the eternal DD for a bunch of older drunks? By the time that 18 year old turns 25 he'll be much better off than a bunch of other folks his age if he played his cards right. If he remains in the military, he will have moved up the ranks and be making a very decent living while also probably getting an education. If he has left the military, he probably already received his education and has work experience that is desirable over most and is even sometimes given preference.
So yes, age can make a difference in the military and, as with most other things in life, the early bird does indeed get the worm.
The military needs enlisted members just as it needs officers. No, it would not be great if everybody who joined already had a bachelor's degree and was thus eligible for officer status. Besides, the military will pay for your education so, if joining the military is what you want, going right after highschool will save you plenty on student loans.
If we pretend that the military is not an option to highschool graduates by censoring its presence then how are all those kids that would benefit from it and yes, unbelievable as it may sound, actually enjoy it learn about it in time to join right after highschool and have the advantage over others who joined later?
Yes, recruiters for the military are trying to get people to join and they are going to present as nice an image as possible. So does any other recruiter in any other field, so do salesmen. Kids aren't brainwashed into being criminals by rap music, they're not brainwashed into being promiscuous by scantily clad pop singers, and neither are they going to be brainwashed into joining the military by a hummer and an incentives package.
It would be nice if parents could distinguish between their own prejudices against the military, their own prejudices against a war, and the right their children have to make informed (and not merely biased) decisions about their futures.
It must be something else to sit on the shoulders of the most powerful country in the world and enjoy benefits that, no matter how much improvement they could use, are still infinitely better than what's available in most other countries and yet still be able to trash talk the very things that allow you to keep the standard of life you enjoy enough to keep you here even though you are apparantly against all that. Like it or not, without a military power, America would not be the most powerful country and we Americans would not have access to all the things that we take for granted ... like education, decent health care, decent living conditions, the right to follow our ambitions as far as they'll take us and get help along the way if we need it, etc. Our military needs volunteers and yes, it needs them as young as is allowed. I'd rather have my kids exposed to the reality of military service and risk that one of them might join against my will than to see a draft imposed in their lifetime or to see one of my kids find out too late that a military life was the one that suited them best.
Aside from all that, though, what about ROTC programs in schools? Should we do away with those too seeing as how they prepare you for military service? I mean, if the presence of recruiters is enough to brainwash kids into joining the military what is an entire program devoted to military standards and progress going to do?


As for recruiters that break the law ...

quote:
"Let me tell you something sir, I'm a soldier and have been a soldier for 20 years," Brodeur said. "This violates trust, it violates integrity, it violates honor and it violates duty."

The army says it is conducting a full investigation. Brodeur said there is no pressure or punishment for recruiters if quotas are not met. They are, however, rewarded when their goals are surpassed.


------------------
"This above all:
to thine own self be true,
And it must follow,
as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false
to any man." - Shakespeare

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TINK
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posted June 04, 2005 10:25 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's move from theory to fact. One of my stores is located down the street from a recruiters office. The Marines are in all the time, not just to shop but to sell their wares, so to speak, to some of the younger male employees. (Oddly enough, it's always the male employees, never the females. Hmm.) Walking into this particular store recently, I happened upon one of them speaking to a very nice, intelligent 20 year old, who is enrolled in college and also working 30hrs a week. I stood silently behind the recruiter and listened to him scare the young man with stories of college debt. Nice. Also, let me add that this is by no means the first time the recruiters have spoken with this man. Each time he says no. And yet they continue. Another employee, 17 years old, has also been propositioned, both at work and at school. He is considering joining up because, in his words, he is "too stupid for college" and it's his only other option.


"Kids aren't brainwashed into being criminals by rap music, they're not brainwashed into being promiscuous by scantly clad pop singers, and neither are they going to be brainwashed into joining the military by a hummer and an incentives package."

I disgree. Strongly. Brainwashed into becoming a criminal because of rap music. That's a hard one to prove. But I think we are fools if we don't see that the rap star/criminals haven't successfully glamorized their lifestyle. Suddenly, being a rap star/criminal looks like a helluva thing to be! I think we are fools if we don't see that the scantily clad pop stars are not being emulated by 13 year girls. Those pop stars make their behavior seem glamorous and desirable just like the rap stars do. Do the humvees and the space age military technology look like fun? Yeah, you bet they do! Speaking with an acquaintance in the air force, I asked him why he joined. His reply, "Those jets. They're beautiful. I just wanted to fly those jets"

In regard to the college indoctrination, I had a long discussion about this with a friend yesterday. The idea that college has become less an institute for learning and more a job training program irks me to no end. When did colleges become job training centers? The sole purpose for attending to "get a good job" and "make lots of money". How sad. Possibly I am naive. However, and this is a big however, college does not ask one to kill and be killed. College does not gloss over this hard fact with doughnuts and financial incentives. And therein lies my beef with the recruiters.


"There were also cops, fireman, business men, musicians,etc."
I hold the military up to much higher standards than I do the corporate world or even police officers and firemen. I would like to think that being a soldier is a higher calling. I would like to see them act honorably.

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Tranquil Poet
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posted June 04, 2005 10:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let the damn kids go to school. WTF are they even doing in schools in the first place.


If I had children and I had to worry about them being talked into going to war in school..............believe me.......I'd break someone's face for that.

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Eleanore
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From: Okinawa, Japan
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posted June 04, 2005 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Tink.

To brainwash someone is to persuade them completely, often through coercion or to indoctrinate them forcibly. I firmly believe that neither military recruiters, pop idols, nor rap stars literally brainwash anybody. Influence, certainly. Glamorize, yes. But have the ultimate say and the most influence in what a person chooses to become? Heck no.
Maybe I'm the naive one, but I don't think teenagers are mindless zombies waiting to have their lives planned out for them by others. It's easy to forget that gangsters and crime existed long before rap music and that promiscuous women existed long before Britney Spears bared her navel. I happen to believe that people make choices, conscious choices, about their lives ... I just also realize that sometimes people make bad choices. I can't excuse someone's irresponsibility because of outside influences. A person who commmits a murder still commited a murder, regardless of whether they were beaten as a child or lived pamapered in a palace. They made a choice.
Why do I feel so adamantly that the ultimate responsibility lies with the individual? Because I grew up in one of the poorest neighborhoods in South Florida. I saw classmates turn to gangs or become pregnant at 13. I can assure you, from my reality, that rap music and CK ads had nothing to do with it. Kids turned to crime because it was easy ... because their friends were doing it, because it was easier than getting a job, because they wanted to do it. Girls started sleeping around because it was easy ... they got a lot of attention that way, they felt attractive, and they enjoyed having sex. Of all, and there were many, of the kids that I saw go down those paths, not one person was running around exclaiming the virtues of Dr. Dre or Foxy Brown. Furthermore, there were many of us, me included, who listened to rap music and were subjected to the same glamorized ideas of easy money and sex from the time we hit middle school who did NOT choose to become criminals or be loose with our sexuality. If there was brainwashing going on, it certainly wasn't working.
Likewise, I knew many kids who were in ROTC programs in school. I sat through many presentations by the military. I had recruiters call my house and suggest that I join. Nevertheless, I was not brainwashed into joining the military. Neither were any of my friends. In fact, the friends I have who joined the military didn't join until they were in their 20s ... until after they realized that college wasn't for them, that their lives lacked direction, and that maybe the recruiters that spoke to them years ago had a point.
The truth is that choosing the military as a career is a very good choice for many people. It's a structured environment where discipline is enforced and aid is available as long as you play by the rules and ask for it.

Cops are also trained to kill or be killed. They have to be. I think that cops and firemen, etc. are as important if not more important than the military. The military deals with foes outside of our daily lives, generally in other countries. Cops deal with the many criminals that are a part of our society and daily lives.

Not everyone in the military is involved in killing or being killed. There are doctors, therapists, lawyers, cooks, cops, detectives, scientists, janitors, financial advisors, chaplains, etc. Not everyone who joins the military is out there killing people as their daily job. In fact, there are only a few career fields where soldiers train to kill on a regular basis. And that is their choice of career.

My husband is in the Air Force. He goes to work 5 days out of the week but I can assure that he has not killed anyone, has not had to defend himself against a killer, nor has he been directly involved in anyway in the killling of others. That's the reality of the majority of life in the military. We are currently at war and so more soldiers are seeing it first hand than is the norm but it won't always be that way. Likewise, going to war now is much different than it was during, say, WWI or Vietnam. It's just not the same environment anymore.
And even so, the issue of whether or not to kill under any circumstances is a moral issue ... and I don't believe in setting up standards for anybody based on someone else's morality. Joining the military is a choice that has been made since this country was founded and rightfully so. Every country needs a military. Ideally it won't be so one day but it's the reality now. I don't see how someone's moral objections, or even a lot of people's moral objections, should override a very real and necessary career possibility for young adults who are planning their futures.
Yes, there are some recruiters who take things too far. I won't deny that but neither will I suggest that that is the norm or the military standard and I will not pass judgement on the entire field of military recruiters based on a few lawless and corrupt individuals.
For heaven's sake, nobody is obligated to join the military. Kids are not being dragged into service by their parents or by the government. Maybe its a sad truth to some folks, but kids join the military because they want to. Not every kid is morally opposed to killing for their country or in self defense. Why should they be? They have minds of their own, they can think for themselves, and NO one should have the right to force them to think otherwise.
I've seen recruiters at work on numerous occassions. I've never seen one intimidate the kids, lie to them, or make them feel that the military is the only choice. Most of the time, the kids are just ignoring them. In a crowd of 200 kids there may be 10 who actually consider it seriously and out of those 10 perhaps 1 or 2 will actually follow through with signing up and joining. So no, I don't think that recruiters are brainwashing kids because if they were actually brainwashing them then all 200 of those kids would be joining, nor do I think that moral objections to killing or being killed by the parents is enough of a reason to ban all recruiters from schools.
I morally object to eating animals. Should all vegetarian parents join together to ban the consumption of slaughtered innocent creatures by children who are obviously unaware of the immorality of their actions and who are brainwashed into accepting socially acceptable behavior? Somehow, I'm thinking no.
Likewise, if kids are so very easily influenced by outside sources and incapable of thinking for themselves, perhaps we need to just get rid of television and advertising as a whole. Beer on tv could be the cause of all those drunk driving incidents! Smoking in movies is directly related to lung cancer! Thin, attractive women in sexy roles are responsible for anorexia! Good lord, we've found the answers to all the problems plaguing us nowadays. People never do bad things because they want to do them, no, no, they are being forcibly indoctrinated and persuaded against their will to do these things.
I don't know. Perhaps I give humanity too much credit for Free Will. Maybe influence really is all that's wrong with the world and none of us should be held accountable for our own choices. But I highly doubt it.

------------------
"This above all:
to thine own self be true,
And it must follow,
as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false
to any man." - Shakespeare

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Petron
unregistered
posted June 04, 2005 01:51 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


Military Recruiters Lie About Dangers In Iraq
Army To Suspend Recruiting For Retraining Following Target 5 Investigation
CINCINNATI -- This is the text of WLWT's report exactly as it appeared on the 11 p.m. newscast on May 18, 2005:
Announcer: "An explosive Target 5 investigation. Our hidden cameras catch military recruiters making the Tri-state sound more dangerous than Iraq."

Recruiter: "You've got more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

Announcer: "So, why are Tri-state recruits ready to risk their lives not getting honest answers?"

Anchor: "The problem is so bad the military is planning a nationwide stand-down day. That means this Friday the Army won't do any recruiting. Why? ecruiters using outrageous tactics to get your son or daughter to enlist.

"You won't believe how bad the problem is.

"Dave Wagner has the shocking Target 5 investigation."

Dave Wagner: "Each day, thousands of American teenagers consider the merits of military service, young men and women willing to wear a uniform and put their lives on the line. Tonight, a revealing look at what goes on when teenagers go behind closed doors with Tri-state military recruiters. In a startling number of cases, it's high pressure, false statements and 'Conduct Unbecoming.'"

Bill Fisher, retired Army recruiter: "Their job is to call you and try to get your interest sparked."

Recruiter: "I'm not trying to do a sales pitch."

Wagner: "In the world of sale, every pitch has a price."

Fisher: "I think with honesty and integrity you can fill any quota."

Wagner: "In the land of a free-market economy, facts can get in the way of a good prospect."

Recruiter: "You have more chance of dying here in the United States."

Wagner: "Even when the pitchman is in uniform."

Fisher: "It's insane. That's ludicrous. You just don't do that."

Larry Clock: "My name is Larry Clock and I'm a senior."

Wagner: "They are the fresh faces of our future."

Adrienne Morrison. "I'm a senior."

Wagner: "High school seniors in the prime of their lives."

Morrison: "I've received phone calls, letters in the mail."

Wagner: "Kids in the crosshairs of U.S. military recruiters."

Fisher: "In recruiting throughout all the branches, they're looking for the good students, the ones that you consider the good students in high school."

Fisher: "I'm Bill Fisher. I'm a retired master sergeant with the United States Army. I recruited for 13 years. Yea, I'll talk to anybody."

Wagner: "These days, it's a lot easier talking to high school students because military recruiters have easier access to your kids. As part of the No Child Left Behind Act, all schools that receive federal funding, and nearly all of them do, are required to give military recruiters access to your child's name, address and phone number."

Fisher: "From a recruiting standpoint, that's a great thing because a lot of people we couldn't get numbers to actually tell the Army story or the armed forces story we now can."

Recruiter: "I'm not trying to do a sales pitch."

Wagner: "But as Target 5 discovered, those military pitches can turn from fact to fiction in a matter of seconds. Target 5 sent four young men, with hidden cameras, into every Tri-state armed forces recruiting center. The conversations began with talk of job security."

Recruiter: "We guarantee you a job."

Wagner: "Signing bonuses."

Recruiter: "Up to $20,000."

Wagner: "And cash for college."

Recruiter: "Up to $70,000 for college."

Wagner: "But when the questions turn to safety, some Tri-state recruiters make Iraq sound more like a trip to Tahiti than a journey to war."

Recruiter: "You have more chance of dying here in the United States at, what is it, 36-percent die, kill rate here in the United States, people here just dying left and right, you have more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

Wagner: "The U.S. does not have a 36-percent kill rate. If that were true, more than 100 million people, one-third of the U.S. population, would be killed each year."

Fisher: "To just openly not tell the truth, to push it aside, that's just wrong."

Wagner: "Back at the recruiting center."

Recruiter: "The way I am, I'm a no-bull type of guy."

Wagner: "But you'd never know that based upon what he tells our young recruit."

Recruiter: "If you get on the Internet and look up how many deaths are in Columbia, S.C., in the past year, year and a half, and then compare that to how many deaths there are in Iraq, there's more deaths going on in Columbia, S.C., for no reason, none, over a pair of Nikes, over a jacket, people stealing people's wallets, shooting people. There's more deaths going on in Columbia, S.C. -- I know, I just got back from there -- than there was in the whole time when I was in Iraq."

Wagner: "So Target 5 called the Columbia, S.C., police department, and despite the words of our Tri-state recruit, this city is hardly a hotbed for crime."

Sgt. Thomas Thomas of Columbia, S.C., police department: "There were 16 homicides in the city of Columbia in 2004. This year to date we have five in the city."

Wagner: "And if that recruiter thinks Columbia, S.C., listen to what this GI Joe Isuzu says about the danger of driving around Dayton, Ohio."

Recruiter: "Dayton area alone, which is about four or five counties, Dayton area alone, 1,500 people died in two weeks. You know what that was from? Car wrecks. Those numbers that we get, we get from the actual highway patrol. So, I mean, all that stuff's factual. So, you look at that way. We've lost 1,500 soldiers so far over in Iraq. We've been over there for three years. If you add it together, 1,500 people died in five counties alone within two weeks, just from car wrecks."

Wagner: "The truth is, there aren't 1,500 deaths from car wrecks in the entire state of Ohio for an entire year."

Fisher: "Conduct unbecoming a non-commissioned officer is what those statements are. I don't know where he came up with it. It's just insane. Yea, yea, he could be your car salesman of the Isuzu."

Wagner: "The national spokesman for the Army recruiting command at Fort Knox tells Target 5: "I don't know why anybody would even let that phrase even come out of their mouth. For whatever reasons, these recruiters must have found these talking points somewhere on their own. I don't know."

Wagner: "Do you think that in the private conversations they're having with recruits here, that they're thinking, no one will ever check this, no one will ever know?"

Fisher: "I'm sure that anyone who could tell that, I'm sure that's exactly what they're thinking."

Wagner: "Still to come, the pressure to fill quotas, the pressure put on recruits, more tall tales and the immediate action the military has taken in response to our Target 5 investigation.

"Now, more of our Target 5 investigation into Tri-state military recruiters offering big bonuses and tall tales to Tri-state teenagers.

"Since the war began, about 1,500 U.S. servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq. The violence has made military recruiting more difficult, often because parents worry about their kids' safety. But recruiters are tracking down teens when parents aren't around, and the pressure can be immense. As we continue our Target 5 investigation, 'Conduct Unbecoming.'"

Wagner (in Milford High School classroom): "How many of you have been approached by a military recruiter in the past year?"

(Several students raise hands).

Wagner: "In Mr. Jewell's American government class …"

Student: "I think they're really biased."

Wagner: "Students are talking about military recruiters."

Student: "A recruiter called me up and told me they got a new deal going on, $5,000 to enlist now for the Army."

Student: "I was told that if I signed up for the Marines they'd give me a $10,000 signing bonus on the spot. I didn't believe that one."

Wagner: "Signing bonuses and college cash are being used to attract fresh faces to the armed forces. But Army recruiters have missed their quotas for the past three months; the Marines, short of their goal for the past four months. When this high school senior says his parents are concerned about his safety in the military, this recruiter puts on the full-court press."

Recruiter: "Don't hesitate. Don't leave me hanging. Even if they really don't want to talk about it, we can still sit down and talk, all right? Because by you walking in here, that shows that you're interested, and I'd hate for you to be denied this United States Army opportunity. Honestly."

Fisher: "Recruiters are supposed to be at the top of their career field throughout the United States, the best infantry, the best cooks, the best medical technicians, the best, the people you want to represent your service. These are the ones you bring out on recruiting day.

"There are some soldiers who are great soldiers but pitiful salesman."

Recruiter: "Of course, the news media is going to blow it way out of proportion."

Wagner: "While some recruiters blame the media for hyping the danger in Iraq, this recruiter, who served on the front lines, has a more straightforward approach."

Student: "I'm curious about how dangerous it really is over there, because in the news and everything people are dying."

Recruiter: "Yea, it's war, you know?"

Wagner: "This week in the Tri-state the realties of war are tragically clear, another goodbye for two young men who fought and died. early a third of those killed in Iraq are under the age of 22, the vast majority from the Army and Marine Corps, 111 of them from Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky. As a country honors their sacrifice, these high school seniors get ready for their military service with a sendoff and straight talk from their local congressman."

Rep. Steve Chabot: "We need to make sure that those kids who are considering a military career get the true facts. They're great young men and women, they're serving their country or will be in the near future, and we ought to be honest with them. We ought to let the kids know the truth and what's really happening. And there's no question, that Iraq can be a dangerous place."

Recruiter: "I was watching the news the other day. In Cincinnati alone, as of April, there were 867 deaths in Cincinnati."

Wagner: "While some recruiters play it loose with the facts."

Recruiter: "Eighty-eight people over there have died from gunshot wounds."

Wagner: "Bill Fisher says it worked for him to play it straight."

Fisher: "We have like the greatest armed forces in the world right now. The kids are just fantastic. And to sit back and say something like this is just silly. You don't need to. You don't have to sway them by innuendos or lies. You just have to search for those who want to join, and there are tons of them."

Recruiter: "I can at least provide you with honest answers. OK? I can be the Honest Abe around the corner."

Wagner: "Tonight the spokesman for the U.S. Army recruiting command at Fort Knox say he believes the recruiters aren't deliberately making false statements.

"This Friday, Army recruiting will be suspended nationwide so recruiters can be retrained, and Target 5 is assured all recruiters will be told to stop making these statements without evidence to back them up."

Copyright 2005 by ChannelCincinnati.com. All rights reserved. http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4508233/detail.html


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Petron
unregistered
posted June 04, 2005 02:01 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Investigation Prompts Recruiting 'Stand Down'

May 11, 2005 10:51 am US/Mountain
DENVER (CBS4) The army will halt its nationwide recruiting efforts for one day this month to review procedures in the wake of a CBS4 News investigation. Friday, May 20 has been targeted as the probable date of the stand down.

The initial report into questionable recruiting tactics involved two Golden, Colo. recruiters. The two men allegedly instructed a high school honor student, who said he was a dropout drug addict, in ways to falsify a high school diploma and beat a drug test.

A Grand Junction, Colo. youth also told CBS4 News of recruiters who broke promises, falsified forms and got him a laxative to lose weight.

CBS4 News' affiliate in Houston, KHOU-TV, and reporter Mark Greenblatt, recently aired a story about questionable recruiting practices where a young man was threatened with arrest.

The allegation involves a phone message in which it appears a recruiter threatened a young man with arrest if he didn't show up for an appointment.

Chris Monarch, 20, said he considered joining the army. He even went so far as to talk to recruiters. But after the arrival of a baby and the opportunity to become a firefighter, he changed his mind.

"I got a call last Thursday," Monarch said. "I recognized the name. His name was Kelt."

That would be Sgt. Thomas Kelt, an army recruiter in a Houston-area mall.

"I told him I am a volunteer firefighter and eventually I'm going to try to get a career in that," Monarch said. "I'm just not interested in that [the army] any more and I just hung up the phone."

But Kelt called back and left this message.

"Hey Chris, this is Sgt. Kelt with the army, man. I think we
got disconnected. Okay, I know you were on your cell, probably, and just had a bad connection or something like that. I know you didn't hang up on me. Anyway, by federal law you got an appointment with me at 2 o'clock this afternoon. You fail to appear and we'll have a warrant. Okay? So give me a call back."

Monarch said he took the call seriously.

"He was a sergeant in the army, so I believed what he said," Monarch said. "I was worried."

Monarch's dad was livid.

"It's one thing to threaten me, but to threaten my kid, it's unbelievable," Chuck Monarch said.

Chris Monarch said he called Kelt back.

"And he said, 'Oh, Chris, don't worry about that, that's just a marketing technique I use,' " Monarch said.

The general in charge of recruiting for the army was played the tape of the phone call.

"It's really an insult to other recruiters who are handling themselves and conducting themselves in the proper way," said Maj. Gen. Michael Rochelle.

As for Sgt. Kelt, he declined to comment.

Army officials now say the military branch will devote a day to review its recruiting procedures and values.
http://news4colorado.com/topstories/local_story_131131244.html


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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 05, 2005 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
"It's really an insult to other recruiters who are handling themselves and conducting themselves in the proper way," said Maj. Gen. Michael Rochelle.


Recruiters are people. Please name one career field that has not one single person breaking the rules and/or not working up to standards. Yes, sometimes recruiters break the rules. Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it is acknowledge as wrong by the military and investigations follow and people get in trouble ... and getting in trouble at work in the military is a much bigger deal than getting in trouble in a civilian career.
Suggesting that all or most military recruiters are guilty of these allegations is like suggesting that all or most cops are corrupt and racist because of the few who may be that way and have beaten up innocent minorities on the job. It's ludicrous.
Good behavior, good work, good people don't get on the news, if you haven't noticed. People doing their jobs right doesn't bring in the ratings. There are plenty of people in many careers who play by the rules and, thanks to a minor percentage of rule breakers, get a bad name. Why? Because some people seem to simply love generalizing negatives, especially when the issue at hand is one they are naturally biased against.

------------------
"This above all:
to thine own self be true,
And it must follow,
as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false
to any man." - Shakespeare

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proxieme
unregistered
posted June 06, 2005 09:28 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...Butting in...

Things may be a bit different for Air Force recruiters - they both seem to have an easier time attracting potential recruits and have lower overall numbers to meet - but Army recruiters are notorious for their practices, and for good reason.
They're under immense pressure to recruit, to "make their numbers" or "get their numbers up". The official line is that lack of meeting one's quota won't bring punishment, it's just meeting or exceeding that that brings rewards, but that's bupkis.
Promotions just don't come unless you're a "good recruiter".
Because of that, many of them (though, to be fair, not all and hopefully not most) stoop to less-than-ideal tactics in winning new soldiers.
Even my recruiter, who was otherwise on the level (for the most part because my high ASVAB score gave me some leverage and I started off our relationship - which began in my high school - by saying, "I want to join the Army, but if you BS me at any point I'm walking away,") said that I should, "Just not say anything," if I had done drugs in the past while we were filling out my Security Clearance paperwork.
That's not good.
That's not right - and if I had actually done drugs at some point before that, and the clearance investigation had uncovered that, I would have been
1) Stuck in Hold Limbo forever during training
and then
2) Reclassed as Supply or something along those lines.

That, admittedly, is a minor example, but everyone that I know in the Army knows of much more egregious breaches of stated SOP in recruiting (or may have been party to one or more themselves).
A few off-hand cases:
* There were not one but several people in my basic training (back in 1998) who signed their paperwork and then were told that if they "broke that contract" they'd be arrested and would serve jail time.
That's not true - you can back out until you get on the bus at MEPS to go to training.
One guy had even signed the initial paperwork while drunk. He didn't remember doing it, but later the recruiter called, said that he had joined the Army, and threated to go to the police and get a warrant if he didn't come to the office right away (again, not even a remote possibility).
* Another guy in my basic training followed his recruiter's advice when filling out his clearance paperwork - he had some debts that he didn't report. If he had reported them - and they hadn't been too, too serious - they probably could've been waived, but the recruiter in question apparently didn't want to delay this guy's leaving for training.
The clearance investigation, of course, found out about them, and he was held over for nearly half a year before being told that he would have to reclass as infantry.
Rather than do that, he went AWOL.
* A lady that I know is a Master Trainer for AFTB (Army Family Team Building - an organization that pretty much teaches spouses how to navigate and get along in the Army), and has been a leader of her FRG (Family Readiness Group - another, but this time unit-based, aid to spouses); once during her role as the latter, a very young private came up to her with a question:
"Ma'am, when will I be able to bring my family here?"
"...?"
"Well, ma'am, my recruiter told me that once I was at my permanent duty station, I'd be able to bring my mother and my six brothers and sisters here so they could live in post housing with me and get free medical care."
"...! Oh, I'm so sorry dear - that's not true."
"But that's the whole reason I joined. I joined so I could take care of them!"
He, needless to say, was upset.
He had a right to be, because that's not remotely true.

Should the people in the above cases have taken the time (and thought) to find out that the recruiters were full of it?
Yeah, they should've.
But these kids were by and large quite young, just out of high school, and they took at their word these people who were their first taste of the Army. They were dumb and trusting. And there are a lot of kids out there like them.

Again, are most or even many recruiters so under-handed?
No, I sincerely hope not.
But there seems, just from accounts that I've heard, to be at least one in every office, and until now their behavior has gotten a wink and a nod from Recruiting Command because it got results.

There is a problem, there has been for some time, and I hope that it really is being addressed.

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TINK
unregistered
posted June 06, 2005 08:29 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for "butting in", prox. You're so damn calm and fair-minded it sometimes makes me sick.

Eleanor, I know you weren't singling me out but, for the record, I'm not biased against the military. I came very close to joining. I still occasionally wish that I had.

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proxieme
unregistered
posted June 07, 2005 08:50 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Double Post

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proxieme
unregistered
posted June 07, 2005 08:50 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm really not, though, TINK.
I only come remotely close if I give myself ample time. In real life, I'm far too emotional to be a good debator - unless it's in a classroom setting (but, gawd, how long's it now been since I've been in one of those?).

I don't post here much anymore because the majority of these threads are doomed to deginerate into partisan bickering or:
"Meh."
"No, no, no - Meh, meh, mehmeh."
"Oh, yeah, well MEH!"
"Oh, yeah?!? MehMehMEH!"
"You're idiotic! MEHMEHMEH!"
"You're close-minded! MEHMehMEH!"
"YOU, my friend, are the biggest doodie-head I have ever had the misfortune to run across! Bleh!"
...Etc.

I get too upset by that for my own good, so I steer myself away. People seemed to still be listening to one another on this one, however (both Eleanore and you seem to be the best here at keeping that going).
I don't know how fair-minded my post was, but it's whut ah thunk

Digressing, how've you been, TINK?

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TINK
unregistered
posted June 07, 2005 06:51 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was a good post, prox. The fact that your are obviously a heart-felt sort and yet manage to remain calm is what I find impressive. I am a member of the knee-jerk club. I'm learning from you. Thank you.

As for me, thanks for asking. I've been sticking to GU. Despite your accurate description of it, I've found GU to be the safest place here at LL. Odd that it would work out that way.

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Tranquil Poet
unregistered
posted June 09, 2005 01:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pleading, bribing and intimidating

I have met lots of jehova witnesses.and I know some people who are also.


You shouldn't compare them all to the ones you have met.

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TINK
unregistered
posted June 09, 2005 03:35 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're quite right, tranquil. I haven't met them all. (Have you? ) It was a generalization, to be sure, and by now I'm sure we've all learned to tread carefully around a generalization. (oops another one!) So my apologies to any Jehovah's Witnesses I may have offended.

Let me clarify my opinion I have noticed a certain similarity in approach and style between the military recruiters and Jehovah's Witnesses I have encountered.

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