Lindaland
  Global Unity
  "Are you listening Mr President?"

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   "Are you listening Mr President?"
Cardinalgal
unregistered
posted March 08, 2006 06:39 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tomorrow's front page of The Independant - will post the article in full when it's on the site tomorrow.

IP: Logged

Cardinalgal
unregistered
posted March 09, 2006 11:48 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NeoCon allies desert Bush over Iraq

These are the right-wing intellectuals who demanded George Bush invade Iraq. Now they admit they got it wrong. Are you listening, Mr President?
Published: 09 March 2006

William Buckley Jnr
INFLUENTIAL CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST AND TV PUNDIT

'One can't doubt the objective in Iraq has failed ... Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an army of 130,000 Americans. Different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgement of defeat.'

Francis Fukuyama
AUTHOR AND LONG-TERM ADVOCATE OF TOPPLING SADDAM

'By invading Iraq, the Bush administration created a self-fulfilling prophecy: Iraq has now replaced Afghanistan as a magnet, a training ground and an operational base for jihadists, with plenty of American targets to shoot at.'

Richard Perle
ARCH-WARMONGER AND PIVOTAL REPUBLICAN HAWK

'The military campaign and its political aftermath were both passionately debated within the Bush administration. It got the war right and the aftermath wrong We should have understood that we needed Iraqi partners.'

Andrew Sullivan
PROMINENT COMMENTATOR AND INFLUENTIAL BLOGGER

'The world has learnt a tough lesson, and it has been a lot tougher for those tens of thousands of dead, innocent Iraqis ... than for a few humiliated pundits. The correct response is not more spin but a sense of shame and sorrow.'

George Will
RIGHT-WING COLUMNIST ON 'THE WASHINGTON POST' AND TV PUNDIT

'Almost three years after the invasion, it is still not certain whether, or in what sense, Iraq is a nation. And after two elections and a referendum on the constitution, Iraq barely has a government.'

Rupert Cornwell: At last, the warmongers are prepared to face the facts and admit they were wrong
Published: 09 March 2006

It has taken more than three years, tens of thousands of Iraqi and American lives, and $200bn (£115bn) of treasure - all to achieve a chaos verging on open civil war. But, finally, the neo-conservatives who sold the United States on this disastrous war are starting to utter three small words. We were wrong.

The second thoughts have spread across the conservative spectrum, from William Buckley, venerable editor of The National Review to Andrew Sullivan, once editor of the New Republic, now an influential commentator and blogmeister. The patrician conservative columnist George Will was gently sceptical from the outset. He now glumly concludes that all three members of the original "axis of evil" - not only Iran and North Korea but also Iraq - "are more dangerous than when that term was coined in 2002".

Neither Mr Buckley nor Mr Sullivan concedes that the decision to topple Saddam was intrinsically wrong. But "the challenge required more than [President Bush's] deployable resources," the former sadly recognises. "The American objective in Iraq has failed."

For Mr Sullivan, today's mess is above all a testament to American overconfidence and false assumptions, born of arrogance and naïveté. But he too asserts, in a column in Time magazine this week, that all may not be lost.

Of all the critiques however, the most profound is that of Francis Fukuyama, in his forthcoming book, America at the Crossroads. Its subtitle is "Democracy, Power and the Neo-Conservative Legacy" - and that legacy, Mr Fukuyama argues, is fatally poisoned.

This is no ordinary thesis, but apostasy on a grand scale. Mr Fukuyama, after all, was the most prominent intellectual who signed the 1997 "Project for the New American Century", the founding manifesto of neo-conservatism drawn up by William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard, the house journal of the neo-conservative movement.
The PNAC aimed to cement for all time America's triumph in the Cold War, by increasing defence spending, challenging regimes that were hostile to US interests, and promoting freedom and democracy around the world. Its goal was "an international order friendly to our security, prosperity and values".

The war on Iraq, spuriously justified by the supposed threat posed by Saddam's WMD, was the test run of this theory. It was touted as a panacea for every ill of the Middle East. The road to Jerusalem, the neo-cons argued, led through Baghdad. And after Iraq, why not Syria, Iran and anyone else that stood in Washington's way? All that, Mr Fukuyama now acknowledges, has been a tragic conceit.

Like the Leninists of old, he writes, the neo-conservatives reckoned they could drive history forward with the right mixture of power and will. However, "Leninism was a tragedy in its Bolshevik version, and it has returned as farce when practiced by the United States."

But was it not Mr Fukuyama who claimed in his most celebrated work, The End of History and the Last Man, that the whole world was locked on a glide-path to liberal, free-market democracy? Yes indeed. But that book, he points out, argued that the process was gradual, and must unfold at its own pace.

But not only were the neo-cons too impatient. A second error was to believe that an all-powerful America would be trusted to exercise a "benevolent hegemony". A third was the gross overstatement of the post 9/11 threat posed by radical Islam, in order to justify the dubious doctrine of preventive war.

Finally, there was the blatant contradiction between the neo-cons' aversion to government meddling at home and their childlike faith in their ability to impose massive social engineering in foreign and utterly unfamiliar countries like Iraq. Thence sprang the mistakes of the occupation period.

Some, however, are resolutely unswayed. In the latest Weekly Standard, Mr Kristol accuses Mr Fukuyama of losing his nerve - of wanting to "retrench, hunker down and let large parts of the world go to hell in a handbasket, hoping the hand-basket won't blow up in our faces."

Christopher Hitchens, the one-time Trotskyist turned neo-con fellow traveller and eternal polemicist, derides Mr Fukuyama for "conceding to the fanatics and beheaders the claim that they are a response to American blunders and excesses," and for yearning for a return of Kissingerian realism in foreign affairs.
The fact, however, remains that future Bush policymakers who signed the PNAC nine years ago are now mostly gone. Paul Wolfowitz, the war's most relentless and starry-eyed promoter, has moved on to the World Bank, silent about the mess he did so much to create. Richard Perle, leader of the resident hawks department at the American Enterprise Institute think-tank here, has vanished from the scene. Lewis Libby meanwhile has stepped down as Vice-President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, to focus his energy on staying out of jail.
Yet another signatory was Zalmay Khalilzad, now the US ambassador to Iraq. This week even he - Afghan born and the one original neo-con who had the region in his blood - admitted that the invasion had opened "a Pandora's box" that could see the Iraq conflict spread across the entire Middle East.

Those left in the administration - primarily Mr Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, are not so much neo-conservatives as "Hobbesian unilateralists", concerned to protect and advance US national interests in a lawless and violent world, whatever it takes.
As for Condoleezza Rice, never a signed-up member of the movement but mostly sympathetic to it when she was the President's security adviser - she has metamorphosed from hawk into pragmatist with her move from the White House to the State Department.

It is on George Bush's lips that neo-conservatism most obviously survives - in the commitment to spreading freedom and democracy that he proclaims almost daily, and most hubristically in his second inaugural in 2005 that promised to banish tyranny from the earth.

But even the extravagant oratory of that icy January day cannot obscure the irony of America's Iraq adventure. The application of a doctrine built upon the supposed boundlessness of US power has succeeded only in exposing its limits.

Thus chastened, Mr Fukuyama now wants to temper the idealism of the neo-conservative doctrine with an acceptance that some things are not so easy to change, and that the US must cut its cloth accordingly. He calls it "realistic Wilsonianism". A better description might be neo-realism. And if that brings a smile to the face of a certain former US high priest of realism with a pronounced German accent, who can blame him?

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 09, 2006 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Utter and total bullsh*t blather. Saddam is in prison, Iraq has a new government, a new constitution, a very high voter turnout and an expanding and increasingly capable military and police force...and 25 million Iraqis are free.

As for Iraq as a magnet for al-Qaeda and other terrorists, it's a good magnet and a hell of a lot better than say, Britain, France, the US or Italy. Further, it saves the US and other western nations the trouble of digging them out from under the rocks they normally hide under. Increasingly, Iraqi citizens are turning in the terrorists to Iraqi or Coalition forces.

Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups and terrorist supporting nations understand the strategic importance of Iraq in the war against terrorism, as does Bush. Apparently the only ones who don't get it are the brain dead left. Or perhaps leftists just identify with the aims, goals and methods of terrorists more than they identify with the concept of free representative government.

IP: Logged

Rainbow~
unregistered
posted March 09, 2006 02:33 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WILLIAM BUCKLEY
GEORGE WILL
RICHARD PERLE
ANDREW SULLIVAN
FRANCIS FUKUYAMA (cute name)

I really admire these men for 'fessing up that they were wrong!

....but we still have our holdout "Baghdad Bobs" not about to admit the truth, telling us that what bush and his cronies did is alright and everything is going smoothly!

*sigh*

Thank you Cardinalgal for giving us that..

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 09, 2006 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The truth is and the facts are that leftists, including leftists in the Congress and leftists in the press are actively pulling for a failure in Iraq.

Their goal is political power and anyone and everything is expendable in their quest and thirst for power. The "truth" is most expendable of all, primarily because the truth is not very useful to leftists.

IP: Logged

Cardinalgal
unregistered
posted March 09, 2006 04:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But these are the "rightists" jwhop. Opposite to Leftists. The people who originally made the case for war and supported Bush.

No problem Rainbow.

IP: Logged

pidaua
Knowflake

Posts: 67
From: Back in AZ with Bear the Leo
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 09, 2006 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pidaua     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Really CardinalGal? THEY MADE the case for the war? You think that President Bush and the rest of congress listen to THESE FOUR men when they decided to go to war?

YOU think (in all of your British splendor) that the AMERICAN people wanted WAR against a terrorist supporting countries because THESE FOUR MEN were supporters?

Are you not aware that WE AMERICANS can make up our own minds about what we want and don't want. Please don't let the majority of leftest pacifists on this website ACTUALLY speak on behalf of the majority of Americans.

Do NOT let the left driven media convince you that WE AMERICAN's listen solely to the MINORITY of ANTI-AMERICAN supporters and even our OWN ANTI -AMERICAN population (as small and loud mouth as they are) when it comes to our rights and when we fight for what we believe is right for others and ourselves. Remember WE WERE ATTACKED and we are NOT GOING to let that happen again...

REGARDLESS of what a few namsy pansy
P1ss-ants decide to do.


Hell if we American's listened to the idiot naysayers we never would have pushed for the American Revolution and we'd all still be British... Can you imagine the HORRORS LMAO...

Just kidding.. I love the UK, just not enough to want to be a citizen.

I think one should really take a look at these guys and their backgrounds.... For the most part they are less than desirable and support some pretty far out there propaganda...


From Fukuyama being completely against Biotechnology (he has been called a Bio-luddite) to Perle's less than steller past involving financial corruption...

Yep... good thing we didn't listen to these idiots when basing our policy. LOL

IP: Logged

Cardinalgal
unregistered
posted March 09, 2006 06:52 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pidaua do calm down and read what I said once more will you please?

I didn't say they were the ONLY people who made the case for war now did I? But the fact is they were part of the section of people who did support the war in Iraq, and now they've changed their minds.

Now where this "British Splendour" charge has come from I don't know. Would you care to explain? There were British people who supported the war too so if you think it's an US v THEM argument I'm afraid you're mistaken. And to suggest I think that the entire US public wanted war based only on the say of these 4 men... well now you're just being silly.

I'm perfectly aware that YOU AMERICANS (must you shout?) can make up your own minds - did I imply you couldn't and if so, where?

quote:
Please don't let the majority of leftest pacifists on this website ACTUALLY speak on behalf of the majority of Americans.

Now are you saying that the majority of people on this website are 'leftists' or are you simply saying you don't want to be mistaken for one of them? I don't think there's any danger of that love, so I wouldn't waste time getting yourself too upset over it.

quote:
Do NOT let the left driven media convince you that WE AMERICAN's listen solely to the MINORITY of ANTI-AMERICAN supporters and even our OWN ANTI -AMERICAN population (as small and loud mouth as they are) when it comes to our rights and when we fight for what we believe is right for others and ourselves. Remember WE WERE ATTACKED and we are NOT GOING to let that happen again...

Why would you say that the media is Left-driven? There are a wealth of articles posted by jwhop for example that are evidence to the contrary. And why is it ANTI-American to question things? We have an Anti-British section of society too but then I suppose criticism is vital in order to learn from one's mistakes and grow past them. Incidently, I'm not amongst them... I think if I was, I'd move out - after all, what's the point in staying somewhere you dislike?

I know you were attacked and how justifiably angry and disgusted you and indeed the rest of us were when it happened. But by continuing to disregard human rights in many areas (Guantanamo being but one example); by forcing our will on others (forcing regime change in Iraq even if we truly believe it's the right thing to do) yet more terrorists are conceived, gestated and born. I'm not saying they're right to do what they do; not at all. They are taking a disgustingly wrong route to get their cause heard and one which will do nothing but serve to make people determined not to hear their point of view. But in order to fight something, you have to understand it first; and that lack of understanding of the knock-on effect of our actions/foreign policies has not helped our cause to rid the world of terrorism. It's bred yet more of the very thing we abhor.

And I echo your sentiments re the American War Of Independance totally Pidaua. I love an awful lot of Americans who I've met on this site and the American friends I've made elsewhere but I'm quite happy being British though thanks. Take me back to Blighty anyday!

IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 09, 2006 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The news media is without question left of center politically, very far left of the American people.

May 24, 2004EDITOR AND PUBLISHER:

Those convinced that liberals make up a disproportionate share of newsroom workers have long relied on Pew Research Center surveys to confirm this view, and they will not be disappointed by the results of Pew's latest study released today. . . .

At national organizations (which includes print, TV and radio), the numbers break down like this: 34% liberal, 7% conservative. At local outlets: 23% liberal, 12% conservative. At Web sites: 27% call themselves liberals, 13% conservatives.

This contrasts with the self-assessment of the general public: 20% liberal, 33% conservative. . . .

While it's important to remember that most journalists in this survey continue to call themselves moderate, the ranks of self-described liberals have grown in recent years, according to Pew. For example, since 1995, Pew found at national outlets that the liberal segment has climbed from 22% to 34% while conservatives have only inched up from 5% to 7%.

One point that can't be overstressed is that the Pew findings are based on self-assessment. I worked in the newsroom at three large newspapers for 22 years, and many of the journalists who rate themselves as politically moderate are well to the left of center, especially on social issues. They are moderate by newsroom standards, not by the general public's standards.
http://www.instapundit.com/archives/015736.php


IP: Logged

jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 09, 2006 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
News media to the left and out of touch with American public.

1. Poll: Media Elite to Left of Public on Iraq and War on Terrorism
The news media elite are to the left of the public in several policy areas related to the war on terrorism, a poll "of opinion leaders and the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in collaboration with the Council on Foreign Relations," found. While 56 percent of the public believes "efforts to establish a stable democracy" in Iraq will succeed, 63 percent of the news media elite think it will fail; a plurality of 48 percent of the public think going to war in Iraq was correct, but 71 percent of the news media elite consider it a bad decision; the public is split evenly at 44 percent on whether the Iraq war has helped or hurt the war on terrorism, but an overwhelming 68 percent of the news media elite say it has hurt; and 46 percent of the public believe torture of terrorist suspects is often or sometimes "justified," 78 percent of the news media elite contend it is "rarely" or "never" justified. Plus, news media elite approval of Bush's job performance -- at a lowly 21 percent -- is half that of the public's.
http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2005/cyb20051122.asp#1

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 4415
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 10, 2006 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the cited report from Pew:

quote:

As in past America's Place in the World surveys, the sample of opinion leaders includes more Democrats than Republicans or independents. Perhaps not surprisingly, the biggest decline in Bush's approval rating since August 2001 has come among scientists and engineers – the most heavily Democratic group. http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1016

I guess that would push it to the left of the public now wouldn't it?

IP: Logged

Cardinalgal
unregistered
posted March 10, 2006 04:59 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
The news media is without question left of center politically, very far left of the American people.

Well thank god for small mercies!

A hearty 'Well done!' then jwhop for managing to find and post the small percentages of Conservative articles that you grace this forum with Maybe we ought to start a campaign for them; after all, they are an endangered species!

IP: Logged

DayDreamer
unregistered
posted March 10, 2006 06:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This article is too true to pass up. Those conservatives who admited wrong have real courage!!!

quote:
'By invading Iraq, the Bush administration created a self-fulfilling prophecy: Iraq has now replaced Afghanistan as a magnet, a training ground and an operational base for jihadists, with plenty of American targets to shoot at.'

quote:
all three members of the original "axis of evil" - not only Iran and North Korea but also Iraq - "are more dangerous than when that term was coined in 2002".

quote:
Neither Mr Buckley nor Mr Sullivan concedes that the decision to topple Saddam was intrinsically wrong. But "the challenge required more than [President Bush's] deployable resources," the former sadly recognises. "The American objective in Iraq has failed."


quote:
today's mess is above all a testament to American overconfidence and false assumptions, born of arrogance and naïveté

And what is said in this article is a reality and how most of the world views the invasion, whether one cares to acknowledge it or not.


quote:
The PNAC aimed to cement for all time America's triumph in the Cold War, by increasing defence spending, challenging regimes that were hostile to US interests, and promoting freedom and democracy around the world. Its goal was "an international order friendly to our security, prosperity and values".

quote:
The war on Iraq, spuriously justified by the supposed threat posed by Saddam's WMD, was the test run of this theory. It was touted as a panacea for every ill of the Middle East. The road to Jerusalem, the neo-cons argued, led through Baghdad. And after Iraq, why not Syria, Iran and anyone else that stood in Washington's way? All that, Mr Fukuyama now acknowledges, has been a tragic conceit.

quote:
But not only were the neo-cons too impatient. A second error was to believe that an all-powerful America would be trusted to exercise a "benevolent hegemony". A third was the gross overstatement of the post 9/11 threat posed by radical Islam, in order to justify the dubious doctrine of preventive war.

quote:
Finally, there was the blatant contradiction between the neo-cons' aversion to government meddling at home and their childlike faith in their ability to impose massive social engineering in foreign and utterly unfamiliar countries like Iraq. Thence sprang the mistakes of the occupation period.


IP: Logged

Petron
unregistered
posted March 10, 2006 08:57 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

"La La La La I cant heeeaaar yooouu La La La La...."

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright © 2011

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a