posted March 13, 2006 11:11 AM              

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But to prove that Christianity condones these things by quoting only the Old Testament still seems, to me anyway, a bit unfair.

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Very fair point Tink - but there were some fairly questionable passages from the New as well : -

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.

For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

and one's enemies will be those of his household." Jesus.

Now of course he could have been speaking figuratively, meaning that he was fulfilling as you say, the old prophecy regarding the coming of the messiah, and his not being accepted by all as that messiah, therefore setting father against son in terms of each person's opinion on the matter.

He also said something about hating one's parents "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" - which could arguably mean that you shouldn't love anyone more than you love god, thereby furthering the idea of the 'jealous god' of the Old testament perhaps?

Of course, it's important to make the point I suppose, that these sentiments are only questionable depending on your personal morality/ideals/beliefs etc so I'm merely saying they're questionable to me personally.

The ambiguity of many passages in the New testament could produce several different readings of the same quote, but my main point is, Jesus is accepted by Christians to be the son of God; and according to their belief, there is only one God. Therefore, must that not be the God that in the Old Testament, was often a less than peaceful, loving figure? Of course that's only one interpretation of the meaning.

With regards to 'proving' the Jews and Muslims wrong in their claim that Jesus was not the Messiah, there are scholars who would argue that the very fact that there even was a man named Jesus is in doubt because there is no archaeological, forensic or documentary evidence that proves he was alive. Nothing exists from the time of the supposed life of Jesus. No letters exist that mention Jesus the preacher or miracle worker. No Christian letters or diaries, no Jewish ones, no Greek ones, no Roman ones. Nobody wrote about a single aspect of his life while he was living it. Which is odd given the level of noteriety the Bible says he achieved in his lifetime. One could of course argue that these references may have been destroyed by those who were against him at the time I suppose?

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I've noticed that when certain folks get hell bent on proving Islam a nasty, violent relgion they invariably quote the Hadiths not the Quoran. The Hadiths being a sort of mad jumble of stories, rumors and opinions that not everyone agrees upon. That's also not very fair, I think.

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Absolutely And I totally agree with your point about the difficulty of understanding ancient cultures, thought processes etc. It's just that if the Old Testament is going to continue to be included in Christianity's holy book, then Christianity must surely be prepared to be scrutinised for the elements within that text as well as the new testament. Even if it's inclusion is simply to show a transition from one mind set to another. It formed the early foundation of the religion, setting down the 10 commandments that Christians must adhere to and even Jesus often says in the New testament that he hasn't come to destroy the old law, or the prophets, but rather to fulfil them.

But you're quite right, enough pontificating! Apologies if I've taken up too much of this thread with theology discussions

posted March 13, 2006 11:41 AM              

are we still believing everything we have read?

God does not do any judging any war any natural disasters..The Universal Laws and our actions take care of that. ...

Sending everyOne Lots of Love..

we have no one to blame, but ourSelves..

posted March 13, 2006 12:00 PM              

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Imperfect Man wrote the bible..

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posted March 13, 2006 12:26 PM              

"son of God" is a difficult term. Being the materialistic-minded types that we are, we tend to take it literally. This leads to a lot of confusion. I tend to agree with the Muslims when they point and say, "you're screwing that up and it's going to cause trouble". We did and it did. Still, I believe there is a grander truth under the confusion.

Speaking of the Muslims, my understanding is that they do believe Jesus was the Messiah. Daydreamer? Mohammad never claimed the title of Messiah, only that of Prophet. I couldn't figure out Mohammad at all until I realized he was the last of the line of Prophets from the Old Testament. Then it started to make a wee bit of sense. He fits in quite well with that line of transmission. He fulfilled it so to speak.

"Fulfill" also is an interesting word. My dictionary tells me it means "to carry out(a prophecy or promise), to perform ( a task or duty), to satisfy (requirments or obligations). In light of that, one could say Jesus carried out the prophecies of the Old Testament, performed the tasks laid out by the Prophets, and satisfied the requiremnent of the old age. Done deal, as it were.

As for the Ten Commandments, the western world would no doubt be a less pleasant place if it weren't for them. Our cultures and governments are largely built upon them. Interesting that the world was so lost that we needed to be told that lying and stealing and murder were maybe not so good, after all.

posted March 13, 2006 01:00 PM              

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Gee, if this crazy forum had a moderator we might have been moved to Universal Codes by now

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Yep indeed! I rather like being a shipmate of a captainless vessel though... gives us the opportunity to sail where we like

posted March 13, 2006 03:00 PM              

------------------
I want to turn the whole thing upside down
I'll find the things they say just can't be found
I'll share this love I find with everyone
We'll sing and dance to Mother Nature's songs

posted March 13, 2006 08:47 PM              

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He also said something about hating one's parents "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" - which could arguably mean that you shouldn't love anyone more than you love god, thereby furthering the idea of the 'jealous god' of the Old testament perhaps?

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Personally, I don't believe Jesus pbuh used those words. This is the Gospel according to someone else, as is most of the New Testament.

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With regards to 'proving' the Jews and Muslims wrong in their claim that Jesus was not the Messiah, there are scholars who would argue that the very fact that there even was a man named Jesus is in doubt because there is no archaeological, forensic or documentary evidence that proves he was alive.

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Speaking of the Muslims, my understanding is that they do believe Jesus was the Messiah. Daydreamer? Mohammad never claimed the title of Messiah, only that of Prophet. I couldn't figure out Mohammad at all until I realized he was the last of the line of Prophets from the Old Testament. Then it started to make a wee bit of sense. He fits in quite well with that line of transmission. He fulfilled it so to speak.

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Muslims do believe Jesus pbuh is a Prophet and also the Messiah, a sign of the end times. Only difference between Muslims and Christians is that Muslims believe he did not die on the crucifix but was made to appear as if he did. And Muslims don't believe in the concept of atonement, Jesus dying for other's sins, or that he was God or literally the son of God.

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As for the Ten Commandments, the western world would no doubt be a less pleasant place if it weren't for them. Our cultures and governments are largely built upon them. Interesting that the world was so lost that we needed to be told that lying and stealing and murder were maybe not so good, after all.

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posted March 14, 2006 05:18 AM              

I'm as yet undecided as to whether there was or wasn't a man named Jesus who performed miracles. I think you're absolutely right when you say that he most likely didn't talk about hating one's parents etc and that that's an entirely man-made invention.

I feel that we all have the potential for 'god' in us, and it's up to us to choose to reach that potential. Whether there was a man 2000 years ago who died on a cross or not doesn't really change or affect that for me personally. If he did exist, and if he did say all the things attributed to him, the message I suppose I agree with most is the simplest to say but often the hardest to do; Love one another.

posted March 14, 2006 10:36 AM              

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The New Testament is a terribly mistranslated thing and the Old Testament is even worse.

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indubitably.

posted March 14, 2006 11:00 AM              

hi Cardinalgal ~

i haven't forgotten your tarot reading with the sacred circle cards...i'm sorry to say that i don't read the cards consistently and that my interpretive skills remain in the early stages of development...having said that though, these cards seem to speak for themselves, and tarot calls to me in a gentle persistent way...a concentrated source of universal love, i believe.

so, i shall look at these cards for you today.

love and blessings, salome

posted March 14, 2006 05:29 PM              

But yeah in the Quran it does say Jesus is the Messiah and will have a second coming:

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43:57 When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!
43:58 And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.
43:59 He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
43:60 And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.
43:61 And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

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Whether one believes there was a Jesus or not depends mostly on faith. The Quran states he was sent down merely as one of God's Messengers, and one of among thousands and thousands of Prophets.

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3:2 God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

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You said:

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we all have the potential for 'god' in us, and it's up to us to choose to reach that potential

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Totally Agree! I'm not one to judge but you seem to have your head and heart in the right direction.

posted March 14, 2006 05:48 PM              

And thanks for posting the passages from the Quran - that's interesting that the people I spoke to had one (seemingly misinterpretation) of the passages. Just shows you how many different interpretations of the same text (and by that I mean any religious text) there must be!

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yea, they are a contentious people

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