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Author Topic:   Who's Behind the Illegal Immigration Movement?
Harpyr
Newflake

Posts: 0
From: Alaska
Registered: Jun 2010

posted March 30, 2006 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Harpyr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
prox,
that's the same technique I use.

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Planet_Soul
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posted March 31, 2006 04:58 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys,

My parents also arrived in this country legally. Both of my grandfathers participated in California's Bracero (arms) programs. They worked very hard in the agricultural fields while the family remained in the old country. My maternal grandfather decided to return to Mexico (he missed it too much) and occasionally travels back and forth to this day. My paternal grandfather stayed and made a home here.

My family has worked hard from their humble origins. My dad is one of the oldest, so he had to help my grandparents by working. He and my Uncle only finished Elementry school. The rest of his siblings went on to obtain college degrees (: My parents have been naturalized citizens for more than a decade (:

I agree that Immigration is out of control and illegal immigration should be stopped. Businesses really do take advantage of immigrants because they make for cheap labor. Dad would have us work in the fields during the Summer, to demonstrate the value of education. It was hard work and miserably paid. There wasn't water nor portable toilets. In grape picking (and other crop work), the Farmer is easily able to loop out of paying min. wage. They pay you some cents per grape table you pick ):

At my current place of employment, the company has employed Illegal Immigrants. Soem of my fellow co-workers had their work permits expire and they are still working. While I like them, it irritates me that the company is violating the law.

Finally, I applaud Elanore for speaking out. As a Latina, I find it difficult to voice my concerns on this issue. When I do, fellow Latinos bash on me for being a "traitor" and don't understand how I am able to feel the way I do.

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goatgirl
unregistered
posted March 31, 2006 12:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just thought this goes along with this post.



Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market
by: Eric Schlosser


ISBN-13/EAN: 9780618334667; $23.00
ISBN-10: 0618334661
Hardcover; 320 pages
Publication Date: 05/08/2003

Excerpt:

THE UNDERGROUND
Adam Smith believed in a God that was kind and wise and all-powerful. The
great theorist of the free market believed in Providence. “The happiness of
mankind,” Smith wrote, “seems to have been the original purpose intended
by the Author of nature.” The workings of the Lord could be found not in the
pages of a holy book, nor in miracles, but in the daily, mundane
buying-and-selling of the marketplace. Each purchase might be driven by an
individual desire, but behind them all lay “the invisible hand” of the Divine.
This invisible hand set prices and wages. It determined supply and demand.
It represented the sum of all human wishes. Without relying on any
conscious intervention by man, the free market improved agriculture and
industry, created surplus wealth, and made sure that the things being
produced were the things people wanted to buy. Human beings lacked the
wisdom, Smith felt, to improve society deliberately or to achieve Progress
through some elaborate plan. But if every man pursued his own self-interest
and obeyed only his “passions,” the invisible hand would guarantee that
everybody else benefited, too.
Published in 1776, The Wealth of Nations later had a profound
effect upon the nation born that year. The idea that “life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness” were unalienable rights, endowed by a Creator, fit
perfectly with the economic theories of Adam Smith. “Life, liberty and
estate” was the well-known phrase that Thomas Jefferson amended slightly
for the Declaration of Independence. The United States was the first country
to discard feudal and aristocratic traditions and replace them with a
republican devotion to marketplace ideals. More than two centuries later,
America’s leading companies—General Motors, General Electric,
ExxonMobil, Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Boeing, et al.—have annual revenues
larger than those of many sovereign states. No currency is more powerful
than the U.S. dollar, and the closing prices on Wall Street guide the financial
markets of Tokyo, London, Paris, and Frankfurt. The unsurpassed wealth of
the United States has enabled it to build a military without rival. And yet there
is more to the U.S. economy, much more, than meets the eye. In addition to
America’s famous corporations and brands, the invisible hand has also
produced a largely invisible economy, secretive and well hidden, with its own
labor demand, price structure, and set of commodities.
“Black,” “shadow,” “irregular,” “informal,” “illegal,” “subterranean,”
“underground”—a variety of adjectives have been used to describe this other
economy. Although defined in numerous ways, at its simplest the American
underground is where economic activities remain off the books, where they
are unrecorded, unreported, and in violation of the law. These activities
range from the commonplace (an electrician demanding payment in cash and
failing to declare the payment as income) to the criminal (a gang member
selling methamphetamine). They include moonlighting, check kiting, and
fencing stolen goods; street vending and tax evading; employing day laborers
and child laborers; running sweatshops and chop shops; smuggling
cigarettes, guns, and illegal immigrants; selling fake Rolexes, pirating CDs.
Economists disagree about the actual size of the underground economy and
how to measure it. Some studies look at the discrepancy between the
amount of personal income declared on tax returns and the amount of money
that is actually spent. Other studies examine changes in currency supply,
the velocity of money, levels of electricity usage. Each of these
methodologies has its merits. All have produced conclusions that are
debatable. There is general agreement, however, on two points: America’s
underground economy is vast—and most of its growth occurred in the past
thirty years.
Any estimate of illegal economic activity is bound to lack
precision, since it attempts to quantify things that people have carefully
tried to hide. Nevertheless, the best estimates convey a sense of scale and
proportion. In 1997 the Austrian economist Friedrich Schneider calculated
the rise of America’s “shadow economy” by tracing changes in the demand
for currency. According to Schneider, in 1970 the size of the underground
was between 2.6 and 4.6 percent of America’s gross domestic product
(GDP). By 1994 it had reached 9.4 percent of the GDP—about $650 billion.
Using a different methodology in 1998, Charles Rossotti, the commissioner of
the Internal Revenue Service, told Congress that during the previous year
Americans had failed to pay about $200 billion of federal taxes that were
owed, an amount larger than the government’s annual spending on
Medicare. Assuming an average federal tax rate of 14 percent, that means
Americans somehow neglected to report almost $1.5 trillion in personal
income. The IRS estimate did not include undeclared earnings from criminal
activity.
Two other periods in modern American history were marked by
thriving underground economies. From 1920 to 1933, the prohibition of
alcohol led to widespread trafficking and the rise of organized crime. At the
height of Prohibition, Americans spent about $5 billion a year on alcohol
(roughly $54 billion in today’s dollars). This black market constituted about
5 percent of the U.S. gross national product at the time. When Prohibition
ended, some bootleggers became well-respected businessmen. During the
Second World War, the imposition of rationing and price controls created
even larger black markets. A system designed to distribute scarce
commodities fairly had some unanticipated effects: a burgeoning trade in
ration books and a hidden cash economy. Perhaps 5 percent of the nation’s
gasoline and 20 percent of its meat were soon bought and sold illegally.
According to one estimate, by the end of the war Americans were failing to
report as much as 15 percent of their personal income. The underground
subsided amid the prosperity of the Eisenhower era. Wages increased, tax
evasion decreased, and no illegal commodity generated the sort of profits
once supplied by bootleg alcohol. And then at some point in the mid- to late
1960s the underground economy began to grow. Conservative economists
point to high income tax rates and excessive government regulation as the
fundamental causes. Liberals contend that declining wages, unemployment,
union busting, and the business deregulation of the Reagan years were
much more responsible for shifting economic activity underground. The
explanations offered by the left and the right are not mutually exclusive. A
stagnant economy prompted Americans of every background to work off the
books. The hippie counterculture of the 1960s and the anti-tax movement of
the late 1970s shared common ground in their dislike of government,
encouraging defiance of the IRS. A new drug culture provided new
opportunities for organized crime. The expansion of America’s underground
economy over the last thirty years stemmed not only from economic
hardship and a desire for illegal profits, but also from a growing sense of
alienation, anger at authority, and disrespect for the law.
During roughly the same period similar phenomena occurred
throughout the western industrialized world. The underground economy of
the European Union may now be larger than that of the United States. Years
of high unemployment, high tax rates, illegal immigration, and widespread
disillusion with government have created enormous undergrounds.
According to Friedrich Schneider’s estimates, these shadow economies
range in size from an estimated 12.5 percent of GDP in Great Britain to an
estimated 27 percent of GDP in Italy. Countries that were once part of the
Soviet Union have even larger black markets. In Estonia the underground is
now responsible for an estimated 39 percent of GDP; in Russia, for an
estimated 45 percent; in Ukraine, for an estimated 51 percent. The
underground is sometimes the most vibrant sector of these transition
economies, the place where free enterprise has finally bloomed. But in many
ways the growth of black markets in the developed world represents a step
backward. An expanding underground economy is often associated with
increased corruption and a greater disparity in wealth. For years government
officials and members of the Communist Party secretly profited from the
Soviet Union’s “second economy,” offering services and commodities
unavailable through the mainstream. The largest undergrounds are now found
in the developing world, where governments are corrupt and laws are routinely
ignored. In Bolivia the underground economy is responsible for an estimated
65 percent of GDP. In Nigeria it accounts for perhaps 76 percent.
The U.S. dollar now serves as the unofficial currency of this new
global underground. During the late 1960s and early 1970s American
economists began to notice that the amount of currency in circulation had
grown much larger than the amount ordinary citizens were likely to use in
their everyday transactions. The discovery led to the first inklings that an
underground economy was emerging in the United States. While business
publications heralded the advent of a cashless, credit-based economy, the
use of banknotes quietly soared. The $100 bill soon became the
underground favorite, not just in the United States, but overseas as well,
thanks to its high face value and the relative stability of the dollar. During the
late 1970s the outflow of currency from the United States averaged about $2
billion a year. By the 1990s, about $20 billion in U.S. currency was being
shipped to foreign countries every year. Today approximately three-quarters
of all $100 bills circulate outside the United States.
The supremacy of the dollar in the global underground has proven
a boon to the American economy. The outflow of U.S. currency now serves,
in essence, as a gigantic interest-free loan. Every time the U.S. Treasury
issues new banknotes, it purchases an equal value of interest-bearing
securities. Those securities are liquidated only when the currency is taken
out of circulation and put into a bank. In 2000 the U.S. Treasury earned an
estimated $32.7 billion in interest from its banknotes circulating overseas.
The 1996 redesign of the $100 bill was partly motivated by fears that Middle
Eastern counterfeiters had created a convincingly real $100 bill, a
“supernote” that might threaten the role of U.S. currency in unofficial
transactions. The latest threat to the $100 bill comes not from organized
crime figures, but from the central bank of the European Union. The new 500-
euro note is perfect for black market activity. It has roughly five times the
value of a $100 bill, allowing drug dealers and smugglers to lighten their
suitcases. Portugal has banned the 500-euro note for those reasons, and its
acceptance in other foreign undergrounds is not yet certain.
The three essays in this book shed light on different aspects of
the American underground—and on the ways it has changed society, for
better or worse. “Reefer Madness” looks at the legal and economic
consequences of marijuana use in the United States. Pot has become a
hugely popular black market commodity, more widely used throughout the
world than any other illegal drug. The enforcement of state and federal laws
regarding marijuana guides its production, sets the punishments for its
users, and suggests the arbitrary nature of many cultural taboos. Americans
not only smoke more marijuana but also imprison more people for marijuana
than any other western industrialized nation.
“In the Strawberry Fields” examines the plight of migrant workers
in California agriculture, who are mainly illegal immigrants. The state’s
recruitment of illegals from Mexico started a trend that has lately spread
throughout the United States. Many employers now prefer to use black
market labor. Although immigrant smuggling looms as a multi-billion-dollar
business in its own right, the growing reliance on illegals has far-reaching
implications beyond the underground, affecting wages, working conditions,
and even the practice of democracy in the rest of society.
“An Empire of the Obscene” traces the history of the pornography
industry through the career of an obscure businessman and his
successors. It describes how a commodity once traded only on the black
market recently entered the mainstream, turning behavior long thought
deviant into popular entertainment. Profits from the sale of pornography that
used to be earned by organized crime figures are now being made by some
of America’s largest corporations. The current demand for marijuana and
pornography is deeply revealing. Here are two commodities that Americans
publicly abhor, privately adore, and buy in astonishing amounts.
Linking all three essays is a belief that the underground is
inextricably linked to the mainstream. The lines separating them are fluid,
not permanently fixed. One cannot be fully understood without regard to the
other. The vastness and complexity of the underground challenge the
mathematical certainties of conventional economic thinking. Hard numbers
suddenly appear illusory. Prices on Wall Street rise or fall based on
minuscule changes in the rate of inflation, the unemployment rate, the
latest predictions about the GNP. Billions of dollars may change hands
because an economic measurement shifts by one-tenth of a percent. But
what do those statistics really mean, if 20 percent, 10 percent, or even 5
percent of a nation’s economy somehow cannot be accounted for? America’s
great economic successes of the past two decades—in software,
telecommunications, aerospace, computing—are only part of the story.
Marlboro, Camel, and Philip Morris are familiar names, and the tobacco
industry is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington, D.C. But
Americans now spend more money on illegal drugs than on cigarettes.
The proper role of the state and the proper limits on the free
market are central themes of this book. The political system of the United
States and the economic system proposed by Adam Smith are ostensibly
dedicated to freedom. Since 1776 Americans have been willing to fight and
to die for freedom. You will search long and hard to find an American who
thinks freedom is a bad thing. The question that has been much more difficult
to answer is: Freedom for whom? Should the government be protecting the
freedom of workers or employers? Of consumers, or manufacturers? Of the
majority who live one way, or the minority who choose to live differently? In
the abstract, freedom is always easy to celebrate. But adherence to that
lofty ideal seems impossible to achieve. Despite the best of libertarian
intentions, giving unchecked freedom to one group usually means denying it
to another.
What happens in the underground economy is worth examining
because of how fortunes are made there, how lives are often ruined there,
how the vicissitudes of the law can deem one man a gangster or a chief
executive (or both). If you truly want to know a person, you need to look
beyond the public face, the jobs on the résumé, the books on the shelves,
the family pictures on the desk. You may learn more from what’s hidden in
a drawer. There is always more to us than what we will admit. If the market
does indeed embody the sum of all human wishes, then the secret ones
are just as important as the ones that are openly displayed. Like the yin and
yang, the mainstream and the underground are ultimately two sides of the
same thing. To know a country you must see it whole.

------------------
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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Eleanore
Moderator

Posts: 112
From: Okinawa, Japan
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 31, 2006 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Planet_Soul. I know how hard it can be to speak out about things like this, knowing how many of "our people" hold the completely opposite viewpoint. I applaud you, too.
And I know that we're not any kind of "traitors". Underlying our views is a deep and genuine concern, not only for this country but for the illegal immigrants, too.

------------------
"To learn is to live, to study is to grow, and growth is the measurement of life. The mind must be taught to think, the heart to feel, and the hands to labor. When these have been educated to their highest point, then is the time to offer them to the service of their fellowman, not before." - Manly P. Hall

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted March 31, 2006 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I never thought I'd be sitting here all these years after I first visited Mexico and saw the absolute poverty there that there wouldn't be a big change. I thought within 15 or 20 years there would be a vibrant economy and rapid improvement in living standards.

Mexico has all the right ingredients for a prosperous citizenry. Natural resources, including abundant energy, a large population, hard working people and rich farmland. I can't see any reason their people have to come here to live and live basically as exploited fugitives...never knowing when they will be stopped, arrested and deported. That's a hard life and far different from those who come here legally.

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TINK
unregistered
posted March 31, 2006 07:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Planet Soul ~ I hate to get all cliched and weepy here but yours is the classic American immigrant story. It's difficult to go through the process the "right" way but doing so makes stronger both our country and the immigrant family. Most of us, if we look back far enough, find ancestors who broke their backs to make a start here, to set a good and honorable foundation for their children. They were willing to sacrifice to be citizens. Thanks for the reminder.

Harpyr ~ you make such an important point about food production. I use the money = a vote mantra while walking the aisles of my local heath food store too.

quote:
Underlying our views is a deep and genuine concern, not only for this country but for the illegal immigrants, too.

yup

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Planet_Soul
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posted April 01, 2006 03:37 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Guys, I am very proud of my family

Jwhop, you are right on. I have often wondered why Mexico is still poverty stricken. I have never lived there, but I have heard many accoutns of huge political corruption ): Maybe that has soemhting ot do with it? I don't know, but I would hope stopping illegal immigration would push the Mexican government/people to make some real positive changes. As I see it, why would they feel inclined to begin progress when the oppressed masses skip over the border anyway?
Another sad aspect of illegal imigration is the danger undertaken by desperate people. I have heard of people leaving dehydrated children behind to die in the dessert and people attempting to cross the border in automobiel trunks... If it became a Felony to reside here illegally, hopefully less people would risk their lives trying.

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ozonefiller
Newflake

Posts: 0
From:
Registered: Aug 2009

posted April 01, 2006 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ozonefiller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm so sorry that I'm not having the time to read everything, this is a pretty busy weekend for me! So I hope that nobody becomes angry if this was already posted, but...

CAN ANYONE BELIEVE THIS CRAP???!!!!

Updated: 05:06 PM EST
U.S. Flag Banned Amid Racial Tensions

LONGMONT, Colo. (April 1) - Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag - as well as flags from other countries - amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.

Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown into the face of another student.

"When it involves the American flag and its abuse in vilifying other people, we simply will not tolerate it," Stumpf said. "They were using the symbol derisively as misguided patriotism."

Students were warned about the policy Friday and several were suspended, although Stumpf would not provide details. Then, about 100 students protested during lunch time.

Student Dustin Carlson told Denver station KCNC-TV that he was suspended for two days.


"I'm getting suspended for it and personally I think that's uncalled for," he said. "If this country means freedom, then why can't we fly our own flag? It's ridiculous."

Thousands of high school students Friday in California, Texas, Nevada and other states protested the tough immigration laws proposed in the House. Some waved Mexican flags and carried signs saying "We are not criminals."

On Monday, about 150 high school students, including some from Skyline, protested in Longmont.

"People are taking it to a whole other level," said Laura Avitia. "I don't think they know why we were protesting."


04/01/06 04:49 EST

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 03, 2006 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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TINK
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posted April 03, 2006 07:19 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

(I think they say Kennewick man was Caucasoid, which is different than what we think of as Caucasian. But it's still funny.)

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 03, 2006 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh no tink, I have it on good authority that
Kennewick Man was a white Anglo Saxon male about 5'10" tall. Probably from Hertfordshire, outside of London.

"The scientific community, claiming that he was Caucasian, wanted to study the body for anthropological and archaeological information."

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TINK
unregistered
posted April 03, 2006 09:03 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know where you found that, jwhop. Everything I've read refers to him as a caucasoid. Supposedly he looks a bit like the Ainu of Japan.

But I did read that a a few followers of the old pagan Norse ways were allowed access for "religious reasons".

"Valhalla I am coming!"

Oh Lord I do miss the Vikings ...

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jwhop
Knowflake

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From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 03, 2006 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

http://www.viewzone.com/kennewick22.html

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TINK
unregistered
posted April 03, 2006 09:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hmmm the hair is a bit dark but yeah could be jicky. certainly has the proper nose.

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jwhop
Knowflake

Posts: 2787
From: Madeira Beach, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted April 04, 2006 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jwhop     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like a right proper British sea captain to me

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