posted September 28, 2006 04:29 PM            

In my opinion, both sedition and treason have been committed by the left against the United States. There is a line where dissent crosses into sedition and/or treason.

I'm always interested in what the troops have to say about the situation on the ground in a war zone...as opposed to what the kool-aid drinking press have to say. The leftist press who take the bait of every terrorist propagandist who comes down the pike and converts it to poisonous kool-aid to dispense to their readers and viewers.

**edit**

posted September 28, 2006 04:35 PM            

I agree - Great posts to both of you

Thank you for posting the definitions Bear (and you too jwhop).

posted September 28, 2006 04:53 PM            

It's kinda funny how you DON'T see it as helping Iraqi citizens. Perhaps you ought to take your own advice, and look into what you're attempting to comment on, and see where Tom Nagy's heart is at.

posted September 28, 2006 05:08 PM            

We're talking about the butcher of Baghdad, the man who has killed more Muslims than any man alive on earth...including about a million Iraqi citizens.

Perhaps you need to define "help" for us acoustic.

posted September 28, 2006 05:16 PM            

There is quite a fundamental difference between using a blog quotion to prove an American's sentiment against our own Country and using a blog as factual data.

Somehow comprehension skills seems to be on short supply with the lefties here, but Bear's message was clear concerning that a blog being used as fact leaves MUCH to be desired.

YOU asked me to prove that there are Anti-American's in our country, which I did and them some.

posted September 28, 2006 06:38 PM            

It's so bizarre for me to sit here, and read your words. Here you've got a guy with genuine humanitarian interest in Iraq, and you guys try to link him to supporting Saddam.

posted September 28, 2006 06:57 PM            

It seems they deliver their poison without talking to the troops on the ground who are in the best position to know. Know not only what's going on but what they themselves think about it.

Most of us support our military forces. My personal opinion is that you're the best and brightest America has to offer.

One thing is almost universal. You wouldn't find leftists putting their a@ses in harms way to protect the United States...or freeing and protecting the oppressed citizens of other nations.

posted September 28, 2006 07:03 PM            

Aid to Saddam
Against the US
Illegal trip to Iraq
Provide Estimates of the number of civilians needed to act as a human shield (which would be AGAINST the US bombing) to protect buildings...

You can call him a humanitarian and maybe in your eyes he is -maybe you consider someone that aids Saddam as being helpful to the Iraqi's.

posted September 28, 2006 07:57 PM            

Basing your comments on a comment that hasn't been fact-checked is ridiculous. Dig deeper. Do a search on Tom Nagy and Iraq.

I shouldn't have to tell you to do this stuff. It's one thing to be ignorant of a portion of something you posted, but if there's going to be discussion on it, and you're going to try to make the case that you know what you're talking about, you better at least look it up.

posted September 28, 2006 08:55 PM            

What was the result AG? Talk about ignorant- they freaking FLED- especially once they found out that they would be used to protect structures belonging to the Saddam regime and NOT schools /homes.

I'll spend some time looking up the information and posting all the tid bits when I get back from my biz trip to Phoenix.

posted September 29, 2006 12:51 PM            

As luck would have it, I had to come into the office today rather than going to Phoenix- thanks to a blow out of my front tire while going down a mountain.. (Thank God I'm a lucky Saggie).

_______________________

Thomas J. Nagy is Associate Professor of Expert Systems, George Washington University School of Business & Public Management. His chapter, showing intent and premeditation of the slaughter of Iraqi children via economic sanctions, was published in Iraq: The Human Cost of History, Pluto Press, London, 2004. He has just returned from lectures and interviews in Denmark and Britain, teaching a seminar on computers to wage peace at McMaster University.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... this is the same Author of:

Introduction

(Swans - February 2, 2004) The ongoing horror of escalating Iraqi civilian deaths and the US military deaths has led to the defection of leading establishment figures such as the billionaire George Soros, former US Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill and members of Tony Blair's cabinet. These developments make it timely to discuss concrete steps to halt the continuing war crime against the children of Iraq, and to bring the crime into public awareness, and to save children from recurrence. The steps proposed can break the predictable cycle of violence and prevent the crime of using water as a weapon against the most innocent and vulnerable members of society:

1) Successful methods for engaging the mainstream media to dissect failed US policy: We cite references delineating the sheer magnitude and duration of the US war crime against the children of Iraq. References to the leading medical journals of the U.S. and UK indicate that ignorance of this crime constitutes willed ignorance rather than innocent lack of awareness.

2) A constructive proposal of atonement, reprogramming military money to save the lives of 2.3 million children each year from the agony of waterborne deaths: We propose long-term reparations to heal this threat to the children of the world.

3) A vehicle for enacting the constructive program: We turn to recent Danish successes for examples of ways of utilizing the medium of the Internet to bring the crime into the public awareness.
We conclude with a proposal to create a constructive program to transform the role of the United States. This program would inform, inspire and enroll a range of stakeholders in society to implement the long-term reparations needed to end the crime, prevent its recurrence, and transform the influence of American economic and political power. We propose the reactivation of the '60s generation as a key agent to push this transformative program.

The War Crime Against Iraqi Children

The massive, merciless, Bush/Blair war and occupation against Iraq has, astonishingly, generated increased resistance from the people of Iraq and the world's second leading superpower, the peace movement, and even former members of the Bushist core itself. Successes and growth of the first two elements have led even the billionaire currency lord, George Soros, and former Bush war cabinet Secretary of Treasury Paul O'Neill to denounce the Bushist folly.

...................

This guy goes on to lay just about everything on Bush- even crap from from 1991.

What this guy fails to mention is that after WE went into Iraq our SOLDIERS rebuilt water systems along with US and Iraqi contracters.

He says our medical community and the world let down Iraq and allowed children to die due to disease and ill-treated water - WHERE in the HELL was Saddam? I'll tell you, Saddam and his people were living great lives as a dictator and torturers, receiving the BEST medical treatment and never needing to worry about the sewage infested water that he made others drink.

"Ignorance of these crimes by the medical community or underreporting of the crimes in the mainstream media, suggest the most culpable, willful ignorance and betrayal of civic and humanitarian duty. Neither medical doctors nor journalists covering foreign affairs, nor professors with access to such sources can dare say, "I just did not know." Such persons share the guilt of their counterparts from half a century ago in Nazi Germany."

Who created those barriers AG? What is the International community or was it Saddam and his band of vicious killers? WHO and other organizations go into ANY country where they are allowed to per that country's government. China as high rate of child mortality as well- it is OUR fault or is it because the communist regime does not allow inspections or aid unless THEY provide it?

In 2003 the WHO epi surveillance of Iraqi children ended it. Nagy would have us believe it was at the behest of OUR government, but it was due to the lack of permission to get into the country.

Nagy may collaborate with true humanitarians such as some of the authors listed in the reference page, but he is using the "humanitarian" guise to promote his own ideologic agenda- which is to blame everything on America and when you can - Bush.

Maybe YOU need to do more research into this crack-pot.

_____________________

Mirandee.. maybe n that galaxy far, far away Democrats are sane, but here on Earth we know better.

Edited to add***

Links to the "Humanitarian" Nagy
http://home.gwu.edu/~nagy/
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/241.html
http://montanapeaceseekers.org/common/documents/nagy-bg.php

posted September 29, 2006 01:42 PM            

quote:

---

Last year, Thomas Nagy of Georgetown University unearthed a Defense Intelligence Agency document entitled "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," which was circulated to all major allied commands one day after the Gulf War started. It analyzed the weaknesses of the Iraqi water treatment system, the effects of sanctions on a damaged system and the health effects of untreated water on the Iraqi populace. Mentioning that chlorine is embargoed under the sanctions, it speculates that "Iraq could try convincing the United Nations or individual countries to exempt water treatment supplies from sanctions for humanitarian reasons," something that the United States disallowed for many years. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

---

quote:

---

A constructive proposal of atonement, reprogramming military money to save the lives of 2.3 million children each year from the agony of waterborne deaths: We propose long-term reparations to heal this threat to the children of the world. http://www.swans.com/library/art10/iraq/nagy.html

---

quote:

---

Documents of the US government itself provide the most direct and damning support of this horrific allegation. The grim parade starts with the Defense Intelligence Agency's "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," continues with the US Air Force's "Strategic Attack 2-1.2" and concludes with the definitive UNICEF study. (1) UNICEF's large-scale survey provides the basis of the estimate that between 400,000 and 500,000 Iraqi children, in the period 1991-1998 alone, would be alive today were it not for Iraq's incapacitated water and sanitation systems and the subsequent imposition of comprehensive economic sanctions, which served to prevent the rehabilitation of these systems. http://www.swans.com/library/art10/iraq/nagy.html

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quote:

---

Over the last two years, I've discovered documents of the Defense Intelligence Agency proving beyond a doubt that, contrary to the Geneva Convention, the U.S. government intentionally used sanctions against Iraq to degrade the country's water supply after the Gulf War. The United States knew the cost that civilian Iraqis, mostly children, would pay, and it went ahead anyway.
The primary document, "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," is dated January 22, 1991. It spells out how sanctions will prevent Iraq from supplying clean water to its citizens. http://www.orbstandard.com/News/Nagy/nagy_US_Intentionally_Destroyed_Iraqs_Water_Su pply.htm

---

quote:

---

Nagy’s article provides an analysis of the contents of these documents. The Geneva Convention relating to “the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts,” known as Protocol I, clearly states and definitively forbids attempts to destroy public infrastructure, including water installation facilities and supplies. Article 54 explicitly and unequivocally states: “It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.” Despite this grave stipulation that forbids any attempt to destroy or render useless water installation and supply facilities, it is precisely what the US authorities did do by imposing sanctions and withholding permissions for Iraq to import required chemicals and equipment for water purifications. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles5/Spinoza_Nagy.htm

---

Here's a link to one of the documents Nagy reports on: http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_511rept_91.html

posted September 29, 2006 01:50 PM            

Instead of Sanctions we should have taken the b@stard out. No one is advocating the death of children, but let's be realistic about the cause and stop blaming EVERYONE but the Iraqi regime.

Nagy is taking facts about pathogen outbreaks as a result of bombing (or any disaster that causes problems with the water supply) and attributing them soley to WHO, the UN and the US Government. Nagy has an agenda which is evident in his writings. He does not like the US or our Allies but seems to have no problem with the terrorist a-holes that use violence to kill their own people.

posted September 29, 2006 02:08 PM            

You also are incorrect in claiming Nagy to be anti-Bush, and this is why it's so frustrating to try to discuss anything with you. You really seem to skip much of the vital information.

First of all, the document he discovered was from 1991. If you're referring to the previous Bush, then you'd be correct, but you said, "This guy goes on to lay just about everything on Bush- even crap from from 1991." Puzzling.

quote:

---

Last summer, Representative Tony Hall, Democrat of Ohio, wrote to then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright "about the profound effects of the increasing deterioration of Iraq's water supply and sanitation systems on its children's health." Hall wrote, "The prime killer of children under five years of age--diarrheal diseases--has reached epidemic proportions, and they now strike four times more often than they did in 1990. . . . Holds on contracts for the water and sanitation sector are a prime reason for the increases in sickness and death. Of the eighteen contracts, all but one hold was placed by the U.S. government. The contracts are for purification chemicals, chlorinators, chemical dosing pumps, water tankers, and other equipment. . . . I urge you to weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation." http://www.orbstandard.com/News/Nagy/nagy_US_Intentionally_Destroyed_Iraqs_Water_Su pply.htm

---

posted September 29, 2006 02:18 PM            

Take a chill pill. I said Nagy blames the US, the UN, our Allies and WHEN HE CAN BUSH.

Saddam is the reason for the sanctions.

Saddam is to blame for his people suffering.

No one was going to give him access to certain chemicals that could ALSO be used to build bombs and are components in Chemical Warfare.

Saddam allowed his people to suffer.

Saddam committed acts of genocide.

Bush did not of those things, the WHO and global public health system did NOT sit blindly while people died nor did either institution bow down to the US or UN pressure. (Both the WHO and public health as a whole have ALSO been to blame according this idiot).

How do I know about public health system and WHO? Maybe because I worked with those organizations - not as a policy wonk such as him, but actually performing epidemiological investigations.

I have READ this mans articles and he places blame on anyone and everyone BUT THE SADDAM REGIME.

Oh and for your little "what you think was so brilliant" retort about Bush Sr., think about what I said. I am referring mostly to this Bush- because in later articles he uses them interchangably. He has about 30 articles listed and I read through almost 15 of them before they became the same BS line he uses again and again.

Review the CONTENT of the articles the just the references to "Bush". I realize that the mere mention of that name throws you and others off, but maybe if you stay focused you'll get the picture.

posted September 29, 2006 02:29 PM            

acoustic is the one who blamed the US and Britain for the breakdown in sanitation in Iraq...while Saddam was still in power.

Later...after 5 years of resistance to the UN oil for food program by Saddam, he finally gave in, appropriated the money to build palaces across Iraq and stuff his offshore bank accounts...instead of refurbishing his water purification and sanitation installations and...

acoustic blamed the US and US citizens for oppressing/repressing Iraqi citizens.

According to acoustic, the US government should have crated up a water purification system and shipped it to Saddam

Knock knock!

Yes, who are you?

Special delivery for Saddam Hussein

I am Saddam, who are you

UPS Special Delivery from America

America? You CIA spy, I have you boiled in oil, then dipped in acid bath, then hung on hook to dry, then I behead you!

Look Mack, you want this or not? Makes no difference to me, I just deliver.

What is it and who sent it?

Water purification system from Bill Clinton

posted September 29, 2006 02:58 PM            

What people don't seem to get is that just because someone writes about it, it doesn't make it true.

Nagy referred to his demonstrating the facts to the movers and shakers with in the Defense Department, Public health etc.. and said no one rebutted him. That doesn't mean they believed him (but we wouldn't really know because there aren't any clear documentations from such people) they may have just figured his is another crackpot looking for a tall enough soap box so that everyone could hear his diatribe.

I am sick and tired of this leftest mindset that we need to blame everyone else (or most often the US) because it is never the leftests fault.