posted September 15, 2006 10:29 AM              

By Jonathan Wright

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CAIRO (Reuters) - Muslims deplored on Friday remarks on Islam by Pope Benedict and many of them said the Catholic leader should apologize in person to dispel the impression that he had joined a campaign against their religion.

In a speech in Germany on Tuesday, the Pope appeared to endorse a Christian view, contested by most Muslims, that the early Muslims spread their religion by violence.

"The Pope of the Vatican joins in the Zionist-American alliance against Islam," said the leading Moroccan daily Attajdid, the main Islamist newspaper in the kingdom.

"We demand that he apologizes personally, and not through (Vatican) sources, to all Muslims for such a wrong interpretation," said Beirut-based Sayyed Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah, one of the world's top Shi'ite Muslim clerics.

The Pope on Tuesday repeated criticism of the Prophet Mohammad by the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who said everything Mohammad brought was evil "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The Pope, who used the terms "jihad" and "holy war" in his lecture, added "violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul."

Pakistan's National Assembly, parliament's lower house, unanimously passed a resolution condemning the Pope's comments.

"This statement has hurt sentiments of the Muslims," the resolution said. "This house demands the Pope retract his remarks in the interest of harmony among different religions."

The Muslim Brotherhood, the Arab world's largest group of political Islamists, demanded an apology from the Pope and called on the governments of Islamic countries to break relations with the Vatican if he does not make one.

DANISH CARTOONS RAISED

The Jordanian branch of the Egyptian-based movement said the Pope's remarks would only widen a rift between Muslims and the West and revealed deep hatred toward Muslims.

The rift is already deep because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and Lebanon.

Sheikh Hamza Mansour, who heads the Shura Council of the Islamic Action Front, Jordan's largest opposition party, said only a personal apology could rectify the "deep insult made by the provocative comments" to over 1 billion Muslims.

And in Iraq, the Pope's comments were condemned at Friday prayers by followers of radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

Sheikh Salah al-Ubeidi, one of Sadr's aides, condemned "the offence to Islam and the character of the Prophet."

"This is the second time such an offence has been give before Ramadan," he said, referring to last year's publication of cartoons in a Danish newspaper that led to violent protests by Muslims around the world.

Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi defended the Pope's lecture and said he did not mean to offend Muslims.

"It was certainly not the intention of the Holy Father to undertake a comprehensive study of the jihad and of Muslim ideas on the subject, still less to offend the sensibilities of Muslim faithful," Lombardi told Vatican Radio.

The Egyptian government, which opposes political Islamism and is friendly with Western governments, said it was worried about the effect the Pope's speech might have.

A foreign ministry statement quoted Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit as calling for "dialogue between civilizations and religions and to avoid anything that is likely to exacerbate confessional and ideological differences."

Syria's mufti, or senior exponent of Islamic law, said he hoped reports of the Pope's speech were wrong and Syrians wanted to cooperate to propagate divine values.

As the Pope's historical reference showed, the dispute between Muslim and Christian religious leaders over the conditions for the use of violence is an ancient one.

The Koran endorses the concept of jihad, often translated as holy war, but there is a wide range of opinion among Muslims on the conditions for declaring and waging jihad.

Some say it applies only in cases of self-defense against external attack, as in the "just war" concept endorsed by St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and other mainstream Christians.

Aiman Mazyek, head of Germany's Muslim council, said he found it hard to believe that the Pope really saw a difference between Islam and Christianity in attitudes toward violence.

"One only need think of the Crusades or the forced conversions of Jews and Muslims in Spain," he said.

(Additional reporting by Lamine Ghanmi in Rabat, Alaa Shaine in Beirut, Suleiman al-Khalidi in Amman, Zeeshan Haider in Islamabad, Kamil Zaheer in New Delhi, Berlin bureau)

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posted September 15, 2006 11:08 AM              

I don't think the extemists should be the only ones holding the podium. Where are all the moderates who dare to oppose this view? We need to hear from them on a much larger scale. Until then, we non-Muslims will have to speak out against it ourselves, an act which Muslims are strongly insensed by. We'd be much less vocal if the moderates took the reines in that respect. We wish they would.

posted September 15, 2006 12:57 PM              

all children of the One and Only..2 in 1... .

separatism is the problem. . .

posted September 15, 2006 04:34 PM            

edited to add: (Except from an article on the Pope's comments in the Uk's The Times Online)

The tragedy of the episode is that the Pope was arguing against the idea that violence can be justified, in any religion. He was making the case for the compatibility of reason with religion at a time when fundamentalism has rarely been more pre-eminent across the religious spectrum.

The irony is that the extremity of Islamic response illustrates in terrifying clarity how desperately the world needs to hear his message.

posted September 16, 2006 03:06 AM              

quote:

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In response to the pope's speech, Pakistan's National Assembly -- parliament's lower house -- unanimously passed a resolution on Friday condemning his remarks.

The Vatican's ambassador was also summoned to Pakistan's Foreign Office to hear directly the government's displeasure.

"It was underlined that at a time when there was an acute need for promoting inter-faith harmony such remarks, regardless of the context, were very unfortunate," said a statement from Pakistan's Foreign Affairs Ministry.

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I think thats a pretty moderate response. There is no violence in it, and its quite reasonable if you consider the ultra sensitivity of the Muslims--we're tired of defending our faith. Moderates DO speak up, they just don't get media coverage. Its all the crazy people that the media is fascinated with and reports on way more. Anyone heard of Chittick and Murata? Khaled Abou el Fadl? Fazlur Rehman? Martin Lings? Mohammad Asad?

Theyre moderates who have spoken out in order to reach a compromise and start a peace process, but no one has listened to them. Unfortunately at this time in world history, Muslims are just out to be painted as the worlds worst, most violent and most ignorant people--and people on both sides of the situation are helping to worsen that image (extremists, and Western media and govts). However, whereas the extremists are just that (mentally deranged), what excuse do the Western media and govts have for disregarding the moderates, becoming almost extremist themselves in this anti-extremism (leading to more violence and less understanding of Islam and Muslims as a whole), and war, where a dialogue could begin?

Just like the recent terror plane hijack attempt in Britain was foiled with the help of the Pakistani govt, other attempts could have also been foiled/stopped, if only the govts had given importance to moderates (such as those in the Paki govt), and made better relations and opened up the channels of communication, instead of labeling and closing channels by offending all muslims--conservatives, moderates, and even liberals. And the kind of labeling the popes engaged in is only helping perpetuate stereotypes; his name calling is similar to
Osama bin laden or zarqawis false and erroneous comments about the fundamental nature of judaism or christianity.

Love
SG

posted September 16, 2006 04:55 AM              

The media only seems interested in the extremist's view - Why? Because it makes for good ratings? I think we need to hand the mike over to the moderates, in fact I think we MUST. They need to be heard, and their voice will carry much further than that of people of any other faith. It may take some time, but it will settle in to the tenents of the Muslim society in time.

I think the problem is, that Muslims are not suppose to criticize the faith, ergo, any interpretation of it. They could be marked for death for doing so. How convenient for the terrorists. How do you get around that? I guess the strong ones will do so anyway. Feel the fear, and do it anyway, as the saying goes. We know Muslim moderates outnumber the extemists 1,000,000 to one. The extremists can't kill everyone. This thing has to be squelched from within, it's the only logical, and rightful way.

We need to give the podium over to the moderate Muslims, in the media, and in the world at large. When I say "moderate", I mean, those who see the futility in forcing a faith upon a person, or feeling obligated to kill anyone of a different faith. Those who realize peace will only come by letting everyone find God in their own way, in their own time, and putting whatever label on "God" the individual sees fit. Once a society realizes that, it's go time, and grow time, for EVERYONE. See, it's a good thing. Societies thrive in that environment.

If the Middle East wants to become a world superpower, they can. Only when they welcome those of all faiths, all ethnicities, and do not expect the things that they believe to be great at home to be necessarily great in the world at large.

And I'm speaking only of the religious states. Westernized Muslims have totally embraced the concept of their women being upwardly mobile people in society. That is what makes the Western world strong. ALL of the people are expected to participate, and they're all given a voice, not just the men. If you don't have the feminine input on societal issues, you don't have enough perspective on family, children, women's issues. This is a major part of a strong society. A man's view is generally insensitive to these issues, albiet tolerant. Muslim women must have a voice in the Muslim world. Then, they will see progress in leaps and bounds. Then, they will be a superpower too. And we won't need to fear them because once the women have a voice, they'll be a much more peaceful society.

posted September 16, 2006 11:38 AM              

By Suzan Fraser

quote:

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ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Muslims around the world expressed outrage Friday over Pope Benedict's comments on Islam, with Turkey's ruling party accusing him of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades and scores taking to the streets in protest.

Pakistan's parliament unanimously condemned the Pope, and the Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks.

The Vatican said the Pope did not intend the remarks - made in Germany on Tuesday during an address at a university - to be offensive.

Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th-century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.' "

Benedict did not explicitly agree with the statement nor repudiate it.

The comments raised tensions ahead of his planned visit to Turkey in November - his first pilgrimage to a Muslim country.

Salih Kapusuz, a deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's party, said Benedict's remarks were either "the result of pitiful ignorance" about Islam and its Prophet, or a deliberate distortion.

"He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world," Kapusuz was quoted as saying by the state-owned Anatolia news agency. "It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades."

"Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words," Kapusuz said. "He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as (Adolf) Hitler and (Benito) Mussolini."

Turkey's staunchly secular opposition party also demanded that Benedict apologize to Muslims before his visit.

"The Pope has thrown gasoline onto the fire . . . in a world where the risk of a clash between religions is high," said Haluk Koc, deputy head of the Republican People's Party, as a small group of protesters left a black wreath in front of the Vatican's embassy in Ankara.

Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric denounced the remarks and demanded the Pope personally apologize.

"We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels . . . and ask him (Benedict) to offer a personal apology - not through his officials - to Muslims for this false reading (of Islam)," Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah told worshippers.

After Benedict returned to Italy on Thursday, Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said, "It certainly wasn't the intention of the Pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers."

Lombardi insisted the Pope respects Islam. Benedict wants to "cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, obviously also toward Islam," he said.

Turkey's top Islamic cleric, Ali Bardakoglu, said Lombardi's comments were not enough. "The Pope himself should stand at the dais and say 'I take it all back, I was misunderstood' and apologize in order to contribute to world peace," he said.

In another development, the Pope appointed Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, a French prelate with experience in the Muslim world, as the Vatican's new foreign minister.

But anger still swept across the Muslim world, with Pakistan's parliament unanimously adopting a resolution condemning the Pope for making what it called "derogatory" comments about Islam.

The Pope's words were "deeply disturbing for Muslims all over the world, and had caused great hurt and anguish," the Foreign Ministry said.

The Vatican's envoy "regretted the hurt caused to Muslims and said that the media had totally misconstrued certain historical quotes that the Pope used in his lecture," the statement said.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, of the Islamic Hamas group, said the pontiff had offended Muslims everywhere and called on him to reconsider his statement. He said there would be organized protests later in the day "to express Palestinian anger."

In Iraq's Shiite Muslim-stronghold of Kufa, Sheik Salah al-Ubaidi criticized the Pope during Friday prayers, saying his remarks were a second assault on Islam.

"Last year and in the same month, the Danish cartoon assaulted Islam," he said, referring to a Danish newspaper's publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, which triggered outrage in the Muslim world.

Indonesia, which has more Muslims than any other country in the world, had no immediate response to the Pope's comments, but religious groups were quick to protest, condemning the words as insensitive and damaging.

The head of Britain's largest Muslim body said it was disturbed by the Pope's use of a 14th-century passage. The Muslim Council, which represents 400 groups in Britain, said the emperor's views were "ill-informed and frankly bigoted."

"One would expect a religious leader such as the Pope to act and speak with responsibility and repudiate the Byzantine emperor's views in the interests of truth and harmonious relations between the followers of Islam and Catholicism," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council's secretary-general.

Elsewhere, Syria's top Sunni Muslim religious authority, Sheik Ahmad Badereddine Hassoun, sent a letter to the Pope saying he feared the comments would worsen interfaith relations.

Later, he delivered a scathing sermon in which he denounced the remarks. "We have heard about your extremism and hate for Arabs and Muslims. Now that you have dropped the mask from your face we see its ugliness and extremist nature," Hassoun said.

In Cairo, Egypt, about 100 demonstrators gathered in an anti-Vatican protest outside the al-Azhar mosque, chanting "Oh Crusaders, oh cowards! Down with the Pope!"

Benedict, who has made the fight against growing secularism in western society a theme of his pontificate, is expected to visit Turkey in late November.

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posted September 16, 2006 01:28 PM              

2 hours, 17 minutes ago

By Stephen Brown

quote:

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VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict is sorry Muslims were offended by a speech that provoked fury in the Islamic world and led to calls for the leader of the Catholic church to apologize personally, the Vatican said on Saturday.

"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said in a statement.

Benedict's worst crisis since he was elected in April 2005 was sparked by a speech in his native Germany on Tuesday that appeared to endorse a Christian view, contested by most Muslims, that early Muslims spread their religion by violence.

The backlash has cast doubt on a planned visit to Turkey by the Pope in November. In an early reaction to the Vatican statement, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood said it was not enough and they wanted "a personal apology."

"We feel he has committed a grave error against us and that this mistake will only be removed through a personal apology," the Brotherhood's deputy leader, Mohammed Habib, told Reuters.

The Pope's next scheduled public appearance is his Sunday Angelus blessing, when he often comments on current affairs.

Bertone, walking into the crisis only a day after taking over as "deputy pope," said the 79-year-old Pope confirmed "his respect and esteem for those who profess the Islamic faith" and hoped his words would be understood "in their true sense."

The academic speech was meant as a "a clear and radical rejection of religiously motivated violence, wherever it comes from," said the statement, which came as criticism of the leader of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics swelled.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan of Muslim Turkey said on Saturday before the Vatican statement that the Pope's comments were "ugly and unfortunate" and should be withdrawn.

"The Pope spoke like a politician rather than as a man of religion," Erdogan said in televised remarks.

Yemen's president publicly denounced the pontiff and five churches -- only one of them Catholic -- were attacked in the West Bank, although no one was hurt. Egypt's foreign ministry summoned the Vatican envoy to Cairo to express "extreme regret" at Benedict's speech.

But Chancellor Angela Merkel and other German politicians defended his comments, saying he had been misunderstood.

"It was an invitation to dialogue between religions," she told the mass-circulation Bild newspaper in an interview.

CALLS FOR APOLOGY

The New York Times said in an editorial the Pope must issue a "deep and persuasive" apology for quotes used in his speech.

"The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly," it said.

In the speech, the Pope referred to criticism of the Prophet Mohammad by 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who said everything Mohammad brought was evil "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Using the terms "jihad" and "holy war," the Pope said violence was "incompatible with the nature of God."

But Bertone said the Pontiff "had absolutely no intention" of presenting Emperor Manuel's opinions on Islam as his own.

Vatican insiders and diplomats say the Pope may have mixed up his new role with his former posts as a theologian and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger he was known as a disciplinarian.

Angry Muslim leaders flung what they saw as allegations of violence back at the Christian West.

"How can (the Pope) imply that Muslims are the creators of terrorism in the world while it is the followers of Christianity who have aggressed against every country of the Islamic world?" prominent Saudi cleric Salman al-Odeh said. "Who attacked Afghanistan and who invaded Iraq?"

In Libya, the General Instance of Religious Affairs said the "insult ... pushes us back to the era of crusades against Muslims led by Western political and religious leaders."

Turkish paper Vatan quoted a member of the ruling Justice and Development Party saying Benedict "will go down in history in the same category as leaders like Hitler and Mussolini."

Catholic bishops in Turkey feared the angry local reaction, led by the Grand Mufti, could show public opinion was shifting against the Pope's planned visit. But Turkish officials said they hoped the row would blow over and the visit would go ahead.

In Iraq the government asked Muslims not to take their anger out on the small Christian minority, after the door of a church in Basra was attacked. The foreign ministry summoned the Vatican's top diplomat there to explain the Pope's remarks.

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posted September 16, 2006 01:48 PM              

quote:

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Mysterious additions
Remember the classic story about the woman taken into adultery? She’s about to be stoned before Jesus confronts her accusers: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” The men say no more and walk away. Jesus looks up and asks the woman, “Is there no one who condemns you?” The woman says, “No one, Lord.” Jesus finishes the scene: “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.” It’s the ultimate story of forgiveness and compassion. Too bad the passage doesn’t exist in the earliest versions of the Bible, Ehrman says. It was added much later by scribes. Why? “A scribe heard the story, and thought that it exemplified Christ’s forgiving nature,” Ehrman says. “Maybe a scribe originally wrote it in the margin, and a later scribe thought that the story had been left out.”

But is the passage in the original Bible? No one knows because there is no original Bible. We know that it was written on papyrus, and that the original language was Greek. “I think people read them so much that they just disappeared,” Ehrman says. Subsequent copies, also written on papyrus, were heavily used and then lost to history. “We don’t even have copies of the originals, or copies of the copies, and so on,” Ehrman says. Most early Christians probably thought duplicates were sufficient, he says, but didn’t think about human error, or worse, a scribe’s desire to change or add passages. The original version of Revelation, though, actually contains a verse warning against adding passages to the Holy Book. It is commonly thought that John, the author of Revelation, wrote the passage as a testament to the completeness of Christianity or prophecy. But Ehrman and most textual critics say that John was simply trying to tell future scribes to leave his version alone.

Included in the things copyists added is the only passage that explicitly affirms the trinity. It reads, “There are three in heaven that bear witness — the father, the word, and the spirit. And these three are one.” It is not in early Greek versions, so sixteenth century humanist Erasmus left it out of his first edition.

“The theologians went ballistic,” Ehrman says. But Erasmus said he would include the passage in his next edition if theologians could show him a Greek manuscript that contained it. They copied one of their Latin versions into Greek and gave it to Erasmus, who was true to his word. The King James Bible and subsequent English versions were based on this second edition. It’s not clear if Erasmus knew what the theologians had done.

Still, Ehrman says, we have 98 or 99 percent of what the New Testament authors wrote. “The problem is that one or two percent winds up mattering,” he says. Sometimes, a one hundred-word passage contains one important error. Ehrman points to a story in the Gospel of Mark about Jesus feeling compassion before healing a leper. Some of the earliest versions, though, say Jesus felt angry. Scholars can’t say why Jesus would’ve been angry — at the man, disease, or society — but the meaning of the passage changes because one word is altered.

Ehrman’s book is full of similar examples, but he says he’s not out to dismantle Christendom.

“The ultimate goal of the book, contrary to what people have suggested, is not to destroy anybody’s faith,” he says. “The goal is to give people information about something they are interested in, or should be interested in, because the Bible is the most important book in the history of our civilization.”

The truth is that the Bible is a very human book that has been changed many times, Ehrman says. “This should give people pause when they want to argue for their points of view based on a literal reading of the text,” he says.

Literalism, then, is Ehrman’s target

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quote:

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Detail of a fourth-century Codex Vaticanus, a Latin version of the New Testament. The note in the center margin reads, “Fool and knave, leave the old reading, don’t change it!” Ehrman says that the author, a medieval scribe, was impugning a previous scribe for altering the manuscript. But scholars say that the first scribe actually made a proper correction. The scribe who wrote this note was wrong, and later, the text was changed back.

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posted September 16, 2006 02:04 PM            

Somali Christian sources report Ali Mustaf Maka'il, a 22-year-old college student and cloth merchant who converted from Islam to Christianity 11 months ago, was shot and killed in the Manabolyo quarter of Mogadishu.

According to a report from the Barnabas Fund, quoting a Christian source inside Somalia, the gunman was loyal to the Union of Islamic Courts, the Islamist organization that took power in Mogadishu in early June and now controls much of southern Somalia.

posted September 16, 2006 02:06 PM            

Amid the current unrest in Saudi Arabia in the wake of America's war on Islamic terrorists, Middle East Newsline is reporting arrests and even torture of Christians in the "moderate" Saudi kingdom.

"Christian sources in the kingdom said at least 15 Christians from Africa have been arrested in Jedda over the last few months for conducting non-Islamic services in private homes. Three of them are said to have been tortured in prison," said the defense news service.

It was the first confirmed report of physical torture of Christians detained for worship in the kingdom, according to the report.

"Saudi Arabia does not allow the worship of any other religion other than Islam. Jews are not allowed in the kingdom and Christians are warned that they risk arrest if they participate in private prayer gatherings," said the report.

Persecution of Christians rampant

posted September 16, 2006 02:20 PM            

Nasir Ashraf

A Christian man is recovering from a beating that left him with a broken collarbone and dislocated shoulder after he drank water from a glass reserved for the poor at a construction site in Pakistan.

The report comes from Voice of the Martyrs, the Christian aid organization with a vision for working around the world to help those who are facing persecution for their Christian faith.

The report said Nasir Ashraf, a Christian stonemason, was working on the construction of a room at a school near Manga Mandi outside of Lahore when he got thirsty and took a break.

"He drew water and drank from a glass chained to a cemented public water tank next to a mosque, which was reserved for 'all' poor people," the VOM report said. "Returning to the construction site, a Muslim man asked him, 'Why did you drink water from this glass since you are a Christian?'"

The man then accused Nasir of polluting the glass, yanked the glass off the iron chain, broke it and threw it in a garbage can.

He also summoned other militant Muslims nearby.

"This man polluted our glass," he told them.

posted September 16, 2006 02:28 PM            

JERUSALEM – Jews plan to take over the world by killing their opponents, Israelis are the descendents of pigs and monkeys, and Allah will soon dish out "the harshest punishments" to the followers of the "corrupt and racist Torah," according to radio broadcasts and audiocassettes recently distributed in the Palestinian territories.......

In another audiocassette reportedly imported from Saudi Arabia and distributed in the Palestinian territories, a popular Saudi lecturer presents Jews as "the sons of monkeys and pigs" who "make practices of deception."

"Allah will punish the infidels and the conspirators," concludes the Saudi sheik at the end of the taped lecture.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47891

posted September 16, 2006 02:34 PM              

very dark. . .

posted September 16, 2006 09:50 PM            

"Muslims affirm that all people are born Muslim, and they can either choose to embrace the teachings of their creator, Allah, or convert to a different religion, Meek said."

"“If Jesus were here, he’d be a Muslim, and he’d say what I’m saying,” he said."

posted September 17, 2006 07:46 PM              

a must read...not a bad response from the 'axis of evil' syria as per prez bush if i must say so myself.

Jwhop, \

Saudi arabia is by no means moderate. It is one of the most backwards muslim countries on the planet. ALL muslim countries acknowledge this. we only put up with them coz they are the caretakers of the kaaba and really take care of people who go for Hajj and Omrah. The Muslims (and particularly non Arab and Muslim women) are as badly treated if not worse as the Arab Christians in Saudi.

As far as Somalia and Nigeria, the violence goes both ways. Nonmuslims in those countries have perpetrated as many if not more acts of violence against the Muslims. the issue is not only one of religion but also socioeconomic status (The muslims in these countries tend to be better off than the non muslims) as well as political. Even in African countries where there is no Muslim-nonMuslim conflict, there is a lot of African-African conflict because of warring tribes (Igbo and Yoruba in Nigeria, anyone?).

Incidents of extremism happen everywhere but they are not the norm. In most moderate countries such as Pakistan and Egypt they are also punishable severely by the law as there are several non muslims in the government and in fact it is mandastory that a certain number of non muslims be voted into the Parliament in these countries because of the large Christian population in these countries.

Before the current admin, Irani jews for instance were some of the best treated Jews in history and have been. In their own history (having taken Jewish studies for one and a half year), they consider the time under Persian rule the best in terms of religious freedom and minimal violence. There were even Jewish members included in government.

If you read the above article, another example of Muslims and Christians united and considerate about each other's religions. The majority of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims hold the same political opinion regarding Israel and America. They do have political conflicts amongst each other but for the most part they are not major. This explains for example why the Palestinian Christians have GIVEN the key to the holy sepulchre church (the most holy place in the world for non-Protestant Christians) to the Arab Muslim family of Nusaybah. The Christians had faught for centuries over who would hold the key to the church, until they decided that they all trusted the Arab Muslims in this regard and gave it to them. Since that day there has been no conflict or violence over the key of the Holy Sepulchre.

posted September 17, 2006 09:02 PM              

quote:

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If you read the above article, another example of Muslims and Christians united and considerate about each other's religions. The majority of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims hold the same political opinion regarding Israel and America. They do have political conflicts amongst each other but for the most part they are not major. This explains for example why the Palestinian Christians have GIVEN the key to the holy sepulchre church (the most holy place in the world for non-Protestant Christians) to the Arab Muslim family of Nusaybah. The Christians had faught for centuries over who would hold the key to the church, until they decided that they all trusted the Arab Muslims in this regard and gave it to them. Since that day there has been no conflict or violence over the key of the Holy Sepulchre.

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interesting point

And before the Palestinians were expelled from Palestine to create Israel for some European and other foreign Jews, didnt the Muslims, Christians and Jews who inhabited that area live there in peace for quite some time?

quote:

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Wow Ive just read that a nun was shot and churches in the west bank are being harrassed. That is very barbaric and not at all Islamic.

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I read that too and yes that is barbaric and anti-Islamic. Im sick and tired of having to explain this to people tho. I wonder if those who committed these crimes have been caught.

quote:

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Incidents of extremism happen everywhere but they are not the norm. In most moderate countries such as Pakistan and Egypt they are also punishable severely by the law as there are several non muslims in the government and in fact it is mandastory that a certain number of non muslims be voted into the Parliament in these countries because of the large Christian population in these countries.

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posted September 18, 2006 01:45 AM              

Hmmmm maybe some good has come out of his careless remarks...maybe this will bring the two sects together so they can kick out the coalition forces from their country.

quote:

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Setting aside their religious differences, Iraq's Shias and Sunni Arabs united Friday in anger over Islamophobic and highly offensive remarks made by Pope Benedict XVI against Islam and the holly message of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

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posted September 18, 2006 12:55 PM              

It's like when a child badly misbehaves in the company of others. It's not very productive for the parents to explain "Oh, you've misunderstood. That's not the way our family really is - We believe children should behave much better than that", or "You really can't blame him for tormenting your son, he has some anger control issues. Anyway, our other kids aren't like that"....What people want to see/hear the most is the child being chastized - A parental attempt should be made to correct his unsavory behavior.

This is just an allegorical explaination of what I'm trying to say, not meant to offend in anyway. I think the Western world, and all western leaders would be less inclined to make these derogatory statements (which obviously reflect their true impressions) about the Muslime world, if there was more vocal, public opposition to Islamic extremism from WITHIN Islam. It needs to be shouted from the roof tops that this is NOT ISLAM, and true devout Muslims are not going to stand idly by while this unfortunate minority dominates influence over world opinions on Muslims.

posted September 18, 2006 03:55 PM              

The people getting violent over the Pope's remarks aren’t following Islam. If they read the Qur’an or went to the mosque they’d know that.

They do not represent Muslims because they are not following Islam, and they know it.

Just because you have an Arab or Muslim like name or your parents follow the religion doesn’t mean you do.

So go find someone else to convince to speak out against ‘extremism’ while you support and start wars and drop bombs over them.

Hypocrites!

quote:

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Numbers are better then words

9/11, Operation Iraqi Freedom & Operation Enduring
Freedom Death Toll

(Information are derived from UN.org, defendamerica.mil,icasualties.org, BBC.com)
Total number killed in 9/11 (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Total number of US Killed (Afghanistan): 314
Total number of US Killed (Operation Iraqi Freedom): 2,601
--------------------
Total Causalities: 5,734
---------------------------- VS.----------------------------------
Total Afghanis Civilian Causalities: 3,484
Total Iraqi Civilians Killed: 216,676
-------------------------------
Total Causalities: 220,160
*didn’t include the Afghanistan & Iraqi Soldiers since They
were “The Criminal”

Ratio of US vs. Civilians== 1:39 (Very Impressive Ha!)

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Hypocrites!

The Pope means nothing to me and to most Muslims. Muslims shouldn’t be that surprised the Pope said those things like that ”Muhammad was evil and inhuman”

The Pope and the Church are not our friends.

We do not listen to the Pope....he is not our leader, not our prophet, not our god.

quote:

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This is just an allegorical explaination of what I'm trying to say, not meant to offend in anyway. I think the Western world, and all western leaders would be less inclined to make these derogatory statements (which obviously reflect their true impressions) about the Muslime world, if there was more vocal, public opposition to Islamic extremism from WITHIN Islam. It needs to be shouted from the roof tops that this is NOT ISLAM, and true devout Muslims are not going to stand idly by while this unfortunate minority dominates influence over world opinions on Muslims.

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Hypocrites!

I think the Muslim world wouldn’t hate the West so much, and would be less inclined to make derogatory statements about the West and be involved in violence as much if the West would stop creating wars that help to bring death to Muslims.

Why don't we hear an outcry by Christians like you over the death the West is bringing to the middle east.