posted May 11, 2008 03:34 PM            

Kevin and Joyce Lucey, their son, Marine Lance Corporal Jeffrey Lucey, served five months in Iraq with the 6th Motor Transport Battalion. Almost a year later, he committed suicide, in June 2004. He was twenty-three years old.

"He called himself a murderer."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARi3898JkPg&NR=1

posted May 11, 2008 10:14 PM              

This poor man.
This reminds me of the lack of respect and compassion experienced by so many Vietnam veterans. Possibly if "protestors" - and I use that term very loosly - such as yourself weren't hurling these personal insults you claim to so dislike at them, they would be better able to cope with the aftermath of military duty.

Men experiencing this sort of post-traumatic stress disorder and moral confusion need psychiatric and spiritual assistance. They don't need to hear someone pointing their finger and yelling "baby killer!"

posted May 12, 2008 02:05 AM            

It got you to pay attention, didnt it?

Really, its not about me, and its not about these young men.

These matters are bigger than any single individual.

We all share responsibility for these crimes.

The sheer prevalence of them ought to alert us to the fact
that they are symptomatic of something rotten
at the deepest levels of society and government.

I do not reproach these young men any more than they reproach themselves.

I admire them for seeing the error of their ways,
which is so much more than many others could do.

Having confessed, they ought to be forgiven, as Jesus taught.

posted May 12, 2008 09:34 AM              

These matters are bigger than any single individual.

Yes and no. In a cosmic sense, neither you nor I have access to sufficient knowledge or possess the necessary higher perception to gauge what is really happening on the world stage. The individual is what we can hope to address. And, I'll say again, running all over the boards or the streets, yelling "Baby Killer!" disrespects the individual. It helps no one.

But your statment doesn't surprise me. These soldiers are more than just exhibit A, B and C in your prosecution case. They are real, flesh and blood people experiencing the repercussions of warfare. Some have the resources and understanding to absorb the horror better than others. Those that don't should find your compassion, not a reproach merely equal to their own.

posted May 12, 2008 10:31 AM            

quote:

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So HSC, he called himself a murderer. Was justice then served when he committed suicide?

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posted May 12, 2008 10:33 AM            

You're more dramatic than I am, lol.

Am I really so insensitive to the individual?

Because I recognize that there are forces larger than him,
which overwhelm and subsume him, and which he cannot understand?

Because I use strong language, to save lives?

Is it not, rather, slightly more insensitive,
to send all these individuals to die,
and to kill other individuals,
in the name of some larger purpose?

Like, say, making yourself lots of money?

And I have never used the term "Baby-killer",
which you have seen fit to print here several times.

But, now that you mention it, what do you call someone who kills babies?

posted May 12, 2008 10:46 AM            

"Men experiencing this sort of post-traumatic stress disorder and moral confusion need psychiatric and spiritual assistance. They don't need to hear someone pointing their finger and yelling "baby killer!"

This is so true. I am not sure how it is with all the Military Branches (yet I am sure it is Military wide), but the Army had made great strides in addressing the PTSD problem yet there is always room for improvement and sadly, some may not be able to get help due to a myriad of circumstances.

War changes everyone and even Soldiers serving for a short tour downrange come back with some sort of change if not monumental. We have classes called the Battlemind of Soldiers and Spouses that deal with pre-deployment, the deployment and the redeployment / reintegration.

What makes a Soldier call themselves a murderer? I believe I would feel the same way if I had to face a child in the middle of the road and make the terrible decision of stopping or continuing on. On one hand, it is a child, on the other hand- many have been equipt with bombs strapped to them by Insurgent forces. Those that stopped faced the ultimate sacrifice and those that didn't must live with the guilt.

It is too easy to point fingers and call them baby killers when we are not faced with the situation I listed above. We are not the ones being fired on by children that should be worried about being in school and what snack to eat instead of being forced into combat.

PTSD is very sad and very real. We have friends suffering from one form or another, whether it is full blown PTSD or less harsher reintegration issues.

posted May 12, 2008 11:01 AM            

But to save just one would be something.

To get just one person to think twice.

Perchance to stop killing other people.

That would be an accomplishment.

At the very least, I will know that I am not participating in taking lives.

And that, whether or not it availed, I spoke out against this injustice.

posted May 12, 2008 11:03 AM            

quote:

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What makes a Soldier call themselves a murderer? I believe I would feel the same way if I had to face a child in the middle of the road and make the terrible decision of stopping or continuing on. On one hand, it is a child, on the other hand- many have been equipt with bombs strapped to them by Insurgent forces. Those that stopped faced the ultimate sacrifice and those that didn't must live with the guilt.

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How can people ignore that? Just outright ignore that the damnable terrorists are actually strapping bombs on children and sending them in to attack, unwillingly, on their behalf? How do people ignore the children who are forced, with threats of torture and death for themselves and their families, to carry weapons and enter into "battle"? Where is the outrage for that? For all I hear on those accounts is crickets.

How do you ignore those circumstances wherein a soldier sees a bomb or gun before registering "omg, that's a child!" How do you ignore that terrorists purposely kill their fellow countrymen to hurt efforts at stabilization? How do you ignore that they purposely hide out amongst women and children, places which are supposed to be safe, and then plan and launch attacks, only to disappear when the coalition forces arrive with the full out fury of war? How do you ignore that for every person we have inadvertantly killed (and yes, feel guilt over), the terrorists have purposely killed multitudes and celebrated in the doing?

posted May 12, 2008 11:15 AM              

quote:

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At the very least, I will know that I am not participating in taking lives.

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Of course you are. Do you have a job? Did you pay income taxes this year? Like you said, we're all responsible.

posted May 12, 2008 11:38 AM            

What these soldiers are talking about are very specific situations involving no threat, and no potential, percieved, or feared threat. At most, they refer on occassion to situations where the potential for a threat, if not absent, is miniscule. Situations where the soldiers thought only of themselves and were willing to snipe a civilian, or a child or a family of five, at the drop of a hat. And they were following orders. In one related instance, they were congratulated by the C.O., and the squad celebrated, when a family of four was killed for no reason. "F-ing hadjis would be alive if they learned to drive," said the officer, and everyone agreed (despite the fact that the car was obeying traffic regulations and posed no threat, as it was heading in the opposite direction). These are very specific incidences of excessive force, and they are said to be commonplace. Listen. Hear them talk about the rules of engagement, and how these laws were bent, then violated, then ignored entirely at the discretion of the Commanding Officers. They talk about torturing and killing people in situations where it is manifestly unnecessary and excessive. This is the crucial point. Hear what they have to say. After you have listened to these eye-witness testimonies concerning very specific and very common situations on the ground in Iraq you can try to think of something to say. The case you are trying to make now doesnt even take their testimonies into account. And while you ponder the relative necessity of maiming and killing innocent men, women, and children, try to allow room for the possibility that we should not even be over there in the first place, and even if this invasion were planned and performed with the utmost nobility and professionalism, it might still be a wash.

quote:

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the damnable terrorists are actually strapping bombs on children and sending them in to attack

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Some of the soldiers were told of that possibility, but I have not heard any of them say that this has been confirmed. For all we know, this is propoganda, dispensed for the purpose of plugging some very real holes in this war. But, supposing this is true, does it mean then that we should indiscriminantly pick-off civilian men, women, and children, on the off-chance that, eventually, one of them might get within a hundred yards of us and explode? Are the lives of our soldiers so precious that they have a right to indiscriminantly take the lives of children and other noncombatants, on the off-chance that a threat may be posed? Does anyone even know what they are over there for in the first place? Can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say that you have clearly defined the necessary reasons for all of this killing? Because I cannot. I have heard from Bush and his lackeys, but the only evidence I see is of their profound incompetence, indifference, and carelessness.

Most, if not all, of your questions, Eleanore, are based on the assumption that the right-wing media is telling you the truth. If I do not accept that assumption, it is difficult to accept all the assumptions that follow from it. Since we are not seeing coverage of this war, as we did during Vietnam, everything we are told is heresay. And, frankly, I dont trust the people disseminating those stories. I look in their eyes, and I see ignorance and greed. But when I see and hear these Winter Soldier witnesses, I can immediately perceive their honesty and sincerity, and I believe what they have to say. They talk about us invading civilian homes at random, destroying stoves, hitting women in the face with gunstocks, binding and blindfolding unarmed children, and carrying the men off to prison to be beaten and abused, for nothing at all. How do you ignore that? There are other stories of civilian buildings being filled full of bullets, when there is little or no perceived threat from that general direction. Listen. Hear. Soldiers are shooting up their mosques, to relieve agression and get their kicks, when there is no threat from these structures at all. Is this how we get the Iraq people to see us as liberators? By dismembering their children, desecrating their most sacred monuments, and demolishing their way of life? How can you ignore this?

posted May 12, 2008 11:46 AM            

quote:

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Did you pay income taxes this year?

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No. I havent given a dime for this war.

posted May 12, 2008 11:48 AM            

Why are you so convinced of only the most despicable motives?

Is that all your mind can understand?

Why do you need to make this all about me?

Why cant you deal with the issues?

posted May 12, 2008 12:03 PM              

But good luck to me discussing all this with you. You've proven exactly how much you care about the individual lives of those at stake in this War. You're on a powerless crusade.

posted May 12, 2008 12:28 PM            

I'm glad you've been against the war.

But I dont think you are against it enough.

The weight of this sad time we must obey;
Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say.

~ shakespeare "king lear"

posted May 12, 2008 12:48 PM            

quote:

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HSC, you really are susceptible to delusions of grandeur, aren't you? You can't possibly think you're saving lives?

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Are you really such a cynic, TINK?

No wonder you are so wishy-washy and complacent about this whole thing.

Dont you see how we all have power to affect one another?

I do not rule out the possibility that I might change a mind or two, and, in so doing, save a life or two,... or ten.

"The men of action are, after all, only the unconscious instruments of the men of thought." ~ Henrich Heine

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our Light, not our Darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightening about shrinking so that other people won't feel unsure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. As we let our own Light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

~ Marianne Williamson

Radiohead
"No Surprises"

A heart that's full up like a landfill,
a job that slowly kills you,
bruises that won't heal.
You look so tired-unhappy.
Bring down the government,
they don't, they don't speak for us.
I'll take a quiet life,
a handshake of carbon monoxide,

with no alarms and no surprises,
no alarms and no surprises,
no alarms and no surprises,
no alarms and no surprises,
Silent silent.

This is my final fit,
my final bellyache,

with no alarms and no surprises,
no alarms and no surprises,
no alarms and no surprises please.

Such a pretty house
and such a pretty garden.

No alarms and no surprises (get me outta here),
no alarms and no surprises (get me outta here),
no alarms and no surprises, please.

The White Stripes
"You Don't Know What Love Is "

In some respects
I suspect you've got a respectable side
When pushed and pulled and pressured
You seldom run and hide
But it's for someone elses benefit
Not for what you wanna do
Until I realize that you've realized
I'm gonna say these words to you

You don't know what love is
You do as you're told
Just as a child at ten might act
But you're far too old
You're not hopeless or helpless
And I hate to sound cold
But you don't know what love is...
You just do as you're told

I can see your man
Cant help but win
Any problems that may arise
But in his mind there can be no sin
If you never criticize
You just keep on repeating
All those empty "I love you's"
Until you say you deserve better
I'm gonna lay right into you

You don't know what love is
You just do as you're told
Just as a child of ten might act
But you're far too old
Your not hopeless or helpless
And I hate to sound cold
But you don't know what love is
No you don't know what love is
No you don't know what love is

You just do as you're told
You do as you're told
Yeah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrhUDnIsCUM

posted May 12, 2008 01:54 PM            

We've seen this play before. Same lying script from 1970-1972, different lying actors...but they're from the same lying organization, Winter Soldiers.

We've seen the phony soldier outbreak where so called military personnel made lying charges against military personnel only to find out they never served in the military or were thrown out during basic training and were never, ever anywhere closer to Iraq or Afghanistan than say...Fort Dix.

I refuse to grant these jerks a hearing..unless it's to give testimony before a Federal Grand Jury, under oath. That's something which they would never volunteer to do. They should be subpoenaed by a US Attorney, taken before a Federal Grand Jury and questioned about the incidents they allege, who was there, who participated and when, where and to whom they reported the alleged incidents.

Instead, they parade around spouting lies about what they say they did and saw but didn't. People like HSC want so badly to believe that he's willing to ignore both the lying history of organizations behind these liars..Winter Soldiers in a new incarnation while also ignoring the fact this same script has been played out before and found to be a thin tissue of lies.

HSC never learned the old axiom...fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

posted May 12, 2008 02:51 PM            

For years now there has been consensus that Vietnam was a pointless debacle.

posted May 12, 2008 03:29 PM            

quote:

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Did you pay income taxes this year?

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quote:

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No. I havent given a dime for this war.

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Well thats real Humanitarian & generous of you HSC.

You also haven`t contributed to Social Security, Medicare,Defense & Security Infrastructure, or any other darn public service including Humanitarian aid....

So while you`re sitting on your duff talking down to the ignorant fools here, we`re contributing the $$ that pays for the roads you drive on & the saftey of the country you are moaning about?

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted May 12, 2008 03:34 PM            

I think most of your money is being put to destructive uses.

I think that I have a perfect right to complain because I dont take part in that.

posted May 12, 2008 03:37 PM            

or just the money they pay in taxes?