posted January 18, 2009 01:45 PM           

Zarathustra's Speeches

9. The Preachers of Death

THERE are preachers of death: and the earth is full of those to whom desistance from life must be preached.

Full is the earth of the superfluous; marred is life by the many-too-many. May they be decoyed out of this life by the "life eternal"!

"The yellow ones": so are called the preachers of death, or "the black ones." But I will show them unto you in other colours besides.

There are the terrible ones who carry about in themselves the beast of prey, and have no choice except lusts or self-laceration. And even their lusts are self-laceration.

They have not yet become men, those terrible ones: may they preach desistance from life, and pass away themselves!

There are the spiritually consumptive ones: hardly are they born when they begin to die, and long for doctrines of lassitude and renunciation.

They would fain be dead, and we should approve of their wish! Let us beware of awakening those dead ones, and of damaging those living coffins!

They meet an invalid, or an old man, or a corpse- and immediately they say: "Life is refuted!"

But they only are refuted, and their eye, which seeth only one aspect of existence.

Shrouded in thick melancholy, and eager for the little casualties that bring death: thus do they wait, and clench their teeth.

Or else, they grasp at sweetmeats, and mock at their childishness thereby: they cling to their straw of life, and mock at their still clinging to it.

Their wisdom speaketh thus: "A fool, he who remaineth alive; but so far are we fools! And that is the foolishest thing in life!"

"Life is only suffering": so say others, and lie not. Then see to it that ye cease! See to it that the life ceaseth which is only suffering!

And let this be the teaching of your virtue: "Thou shalt slay thyself! Thou shalt steal away from thyself!"-

"Lust is sin,"- so say some who preach death- "let us go apart and beget no children!"

"Giving birth is troublesome,"- say others- "why still give birth? One beareth only the unfortunate!" And they also are preachers of death.

"Pity is necessary,"- so saith a third party. "Take what I have! Take what I am! So much less doth life bind me!"

Were they consistently pitiful, then would they make their neighbours sick of life. To be wicked- that would be their true goodness.

But they want to be rid of life; what care they if they bind others still faster with their chains and gifts!-

And ye also, to whom life is rough labour and disquiet, are ye not very tired of life? Are ye not very ripe for the sermon of death?

All ye to whom rough labour is dear, and the rapid, new, and strange- ye put up with yourselves badly; your diligence is flight, and the will to self-forgetfulness.

If ye believed more in life, then would ye devote yourselves less to the momentary. But for waiting, ye have not enough of capacity in you- nor even for idling!

Everywhere resoundeth the voices of those who preach death; and the earth is full of those to whom death hath to be preached.

Or "life eternal"; it is all the same to me- if only they pass away quickly!-

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You flee from me? You are frightened? You tremble at this word?
O my brothers, when I told you to break the good, and the tablets of the good,
only then did I embark man on his high sea.
And only now does there come to him the great fright,
the great looking-around, the great sickness,
the great nausea, the great seasickness.
False coasts and false assurances the good have taught you;
in the lies of the good were you hatched and huddled.
Everything has been made fraudulent and has been twisted through and through by the good.

But he who discovered the land "man", also discovered the land "man's future".
Now you shall be sea-farers, valiant and patient.
Walk upright betimes, O my brothers; learn to walk upright.
The sea is raging; many want to right themselves with your help.
The sea is raging; everything is in the sea.
Well then, old sea dogs! What of fatherland?
Our helm steers us toward our children's land!
Out there, stormier than the sea, storms our great longing!

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Such maxims I heard pious afterworldly people speak to their consciences --
verily, without treachery or falseness, although there is nothing falser in the whole world,
nothing more treacherous:

"Let the world go its way! Do not raise one finger against it!"

"Let him who wants to, strangle and stab and fleece and flay the people.
Do not raise one finger against it! Thus will they learn to renounce the world."

"And your own reason -- you yourself should stifle and strangle it;
for it is a reason of this world; thus will you yourself learn to renounce the world."

Break, break, O my brothers, these old tablets of the pious.
Break the maxims of those who slander the world.

posted January 18, 2009 02:23 PM           

I just didn't want you to get turned-off by the poor translations.

posted January 18, 2009 08:27 PM           

Parts of it glimmered....maybe the translation is not the best... and perhaps partly because I didnt get a lot of sleep last night.

Could you give me more insight into what he is meaning about the Preachers of Death? It's confusing to me. Life is death, this world is full of death, that's the way of it. I'm not in love with life - worldly life anyway. What is he going on about?

Some thoughts that kept coming up: What's he so p!ssed about? , Why's he so concerned about his childish, foolish Brothers? He's caught up in it all. Is he "pro-world"? What did this "life" that he refers to mean to him personally; what was his definition when he spoke of it?

At certain lines, he seemed to know better, then - slip. A thought kept creeping in while reading that:
'He got stuck.' Though I still find a brilliant mind there.

And, I very well could be mistaken. I can't make a firm judgement on those three small exerpts alone and I like many of the other things i've read by him. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading them. Though I'm not sure I could read an entire book by him now. Maybe if I adjusted my antenna and tuned into his tone and meanings more then, after awhile I might recieve it better. I'm not sure if it was Nietzsche or the translator that made him sound slightly pompous. Maybe it's just me....or his Mars on my Moon.

posted January 18, 2009 08:46 PM           

Do you think his genius...or a brilliant and chaotic mind, without rest or breaks, brought this on? There's intensity in his words - a severity even. That's dangerous without ever achieving states of no-mind or practicing meditation techniques in some form. It will cause one to split or break down.

posted January 18, 2009 09:08 PM           

Where to begin... and how to keep it short...

He is definitely pompous, lol.

But he never claims to be enlightened or infallible, like Osho did.

Rather, he writes:

"I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy:...
I do not want to be a holy man; sooner even a buffoon... Perhaps I am a buffoon."

He is definitely firey and passionate, and "righteously indignant", if you will.
He's not trying to make a splash, but cause a tidal wave, and stir up the complacency of his readers.
I think that Aries-Pluto energy (as history seems to show) was just the thing to do it.

At the same time, it would be a mistake to think he is an angry or bitter man.
He praises what is light, prankish, and playful. Manliness, to him, contains something childlike.
He considers himself the ultimate optimist and affirmer of life, and of the world.

The "black and yellow ones" he is talking about are the Christians and Buddhists.
He thinks that religious people who say the world is evil are "preachers of death".

He is referring to the story of Siddhartha when he says:
"They meet an invalid, or an old man, or a corpse- and immediately they say: 'Life is refuted!'
But they only are refuted, and their eye, which seeth only one aspect of existence."

He is saying that the people who talk about renouncing the world are weak; too weak for this world.
He is saying that people who kill themselves are not unlike people who enter monasteries.
He loves the earth and loves the world and thinks those who talk about other worlds are escapists.
That the people who mortify the flesh do it because they have mortified souls.
That those who find the world unclean are themselves unclean. (Hmmm...)

And that, although they talk about renouncing the world,
they bind others to the world with their acts of kindness.
He calls this hippocrisy, and says, if they really wanted people to renounce,
they would make the world more unbearable, and mess with people's egos all the time.

At least, this is the mask he wears in order to raise these questions.
Really, it is difficult to know what he really thinks, or when he is being sarcastic.
He said a lot of things that lead me to suspect he was playing a great joke:
He says that only those who reject him will have understood him.
He says that virtues need to be questioned and challenged, or they grow weak.
He said that for love of mankind one could even sacrifice their humanity.
He said that he spoke "for the exception, so long as it does not wish to become the rule".
Most of all, he believes that wisdom must be arrived at on one's own...
Precepts and principles, however wise, can bar the way to true insight.

posted January 18, 2009 09:55 PM           

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I reject a lot of it, but I feel like I like him a lot anyway and respect what he brought.

I have to disagree with him and say he was holy. In the sense that we all are. There's no way around us all being holy buffoons here. In saying that, he was really no different then the man who wants everyone to proclaim him as holy and tries to hide his buffoniness, it was only reversed in him. Who cares what people make of you? They're going to do it anyway.

I don't know if it would be a mistake to call him an angry or bitter man (even though i didnt), but he might have been and I havent read enough to really make that call. And so what if he was?

I don't want to respond to everything you posted because I dont think it's necessary, but a few things that stand out:

quote:

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He is saying that the people who talk about renouncing the world are weak; too weak for this world.

---

That's interesting. I can see that and understand and even lean towards that arguement. Yet, I can also see how someone who renounces everything could carry much strength. Moreso than the worldly man. It's not easy to give up every single thing of this world, to leave it all behind and walk naked into the sunset..to live alone with yourself. Many have tried. Few succeed. I sure as hell couldnt. I was too weak. So the word "strength" in this arguement comes and goes. It can go either way imo.

quote:

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He loves the earth and loves the world and thinks those who talk about other worlds are escapists.

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That's fine for someone who doesnt see this world as an escapist's paradise. I hope he was also aware that just because "other worlds" call to some, does not mean they dont appreciate, or completely reject and disdain this one.

quote:

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Really, it is difficult to know what he really thinks, or when he is being sarcastic.
He said a lot of things that lead me to suspect he was playing a great joke:

---

quote:

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Most of all, he believes that wisdom must be arrived at on one's own...
Precepts and principles, however wise, can bar the way to true insight.

---

posted January 22, 2009 12:50 AM           

quote:

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It's decided. I like him. lol
Thank you for taking the time to explain. I reject a lot of it, but I feel like I like him a lot anyway and respect what he brought.

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Great! Yeah, that's how I feel, too.

quote:

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I have to disagree with him and say he was holy. In the sense that we all are. There's no way around us all being holy buffoons here.

---

quote:

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In saying that, he was really no different then the man who wants everyone to proclaim him as holy and tries to hide his buffoniness, it was only reversed in him.

---

He said a lot of things, though. "Nietzsche is the most sarcastic son of a ***** ever to set foot on this earth. Just say that; then write whatever else you want, like he would." (~Werner Timmermann) He just sees it from so many perspectives. And I think you are right that he was never really sure of what he thought.. but that doesnt contradict what Freud said about him (that he had a more penetrating knowledge of himself than any man who ever lived).. Nietzsche was swallowed up in self-knowledge.

I'm not sure how he was defining "holy" in this context. The quote begins: "I desire no 'believers'. I think I am too malicious even to believe in myself. I have no wish to be a saint, I would rather be a buffoon. Perhaps I am a buffoon." So, I guess he was defining a holy person or saint here as someone we believe in, or follow. Elsewhere, he definitely equates "believers" with "followers". And he could not even follow himself. How 12th house is that? It's like what Jung writes about in his autobiography: how he rejected all these definitions of God as someone or something that man could have a relationship with, or even approach; that God is really something that happens to man. At that level, at the spiritual level, how can it be anything but a quest, an adventure, and a surrender to a higher will?

quote:

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Who cares what people make of you? They're going to do it anyway.

---

It's fine to say that. I dont know about you, but I am painfully sensitive to criticism. So, its like saying, "Who cares if someone has a club and wants to beat you with it? They're going to do it anyway; so you might as well just expose your deepest, "dreamingest" self before a crowd of a million people who have really sharp clubs." But if I try to be "Valerian Silvanus Valus" and publish a book of maxims and stuff, they will crucify me as pretentious, pompous, sophmoric, and a thousand more cutting things. They will most definitely accuse me of plaigerism. You can't draw upon the collective unconscious and express the most universal things in the most universal and classic style without being accused of plaigerism. And I have no Harvard degree to serve as credentials.. and, at that level, they just see credentials; they dont see you unless they see credentials. So, the book would not be taken seriously by intellectuals,.. and the rest of the public would not probably not know what to make of it. As long as you deal in mediocrity, people will celebrate you, even when you are mediocre. But, if you deal in metaphysical treasures and antiquities, you had better meet the highest intellectual standards, or at least have a secure position in society and a classical education. No, I do not think I will be able to present my work and my self -- my dream -- before the world like that until sometime in my forties. But if I die before that, hopefully Melody or somebody will try to get my work published. .. I wish I could hide behind the pseudonymn but my rough drafts are scattered like "riderless horses" all over the internet, and my name is out there................ But someday I'm going to publish as Valus, and my book wont be just an anachronism, but a return to the eternal style. That will prove my exact trine from Vesta to Saturn, and mark me as a true and honest keeper of the flame.

posted January 22, 2009 12:50 AM           

quote:

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I don't know if it would be a mistake to call him an angry or bitter man (even though i didnt), but he might have been and I havent read enough to really make that call. And so what if he was?

---

No, I know you didnt. And I'm sure he was, at times,
but he has an indomitable free-spirit that continues to reassert itself.

And you are right, "So what if he was?" Wisdom can be a heavy burden for some.
And I suppose there are some forms of wisdom that would crush anybody.

quote:

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I can also see how someone who renounces everything could carry much strength. Moreso than the worldly man. It's not easy to give up every single thing of this world, to leave it all behind and walk naked into the sunset..to live alone with yourself. Many have tried. Few succeed. I sure as hell couldnt. I was too weak. So the word "strength" in this arguement comes and goes. It can go either way imo.

---

Yeah, I can see both sides, too, and I'm not sure how it works. Clearly, it comes easier to some than others. I would imagine that for some people the world is unbearable, and renouncing it is a continually increasing relief. It comes natural to them. While others try to force it. Maybe some succeed in forcing it,.. or maybe they just create more entanglements.. or maybe nothing really changes at all. I see so many things. I can't hold a single conviction in my mind for long. I think I'm ready to die now, lol.

quote:

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That's fine for someone who doesnt see this world as an escapist's paradise.

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Brilliantly put.

quote:

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I hope he was also aware that just because "other worlds" call to some, does not mean they dont appreciate, or that they completely reject and disdain this one.

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Again, this sounds like something brilliant.

What are we escaping, or trying to escape, from?

posted January 22, 2009 11:34 PM           

quote:

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"Nietzsche is the most sarcastic son of a ***** ever to set foot on this earth. Just say that; then write whatever else you want, like he would." (~Werner Timmermann) He just sees it from so many perspectives. And I think you are right that he was never really sure of what he thought..

---

We wouldve been good friends for sure then. lol
I'm a friend of sarcasm's.

Thanks for explaining what he meant by "saint" "believers" and "followers".

quote:

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At that level, at the spiritual level, how can it be anything but a quest, an adventure, and a surrender to a higher will?

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Great way of putting it.

quote:

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I dont know about you, but I am painfully sensitive to criticism.

---

I'm really not anymore. Sometimes, sure, but for the most part I don't care. I let it slide off my back. I've been critisized my whole life by a parent and I beat myself up pretty well on my own anyway. I'm learning how not to now.

quote:

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But if I try to be "Valerian Silvanus Valus" and publish a book of maxims and stuff, they will crucify me as pretentious, pompous, sophmoric, and a thousand more cutting things. They will most definitely accuse me of plaigerism. You can't draw upon the collective unconscious and express the most universal things in the most universal and classic style without being accused of plaigerism. And I have no Harvard degree to serve as credentials.. and, at that level, they just see credentials; they dont see you unless they see credentials.

---

But you cannot let yourself care too much about that. You can't hide your light; your art. At least you are prepared for it right?

Other people have done this successfully and so can you. Even without those stupid "credentials". Anything is possible if you believe.

quote:

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So, the book would not be taken seriously by intellectuals,.. and the rest of the public would not probably not know what to make of it. As long as you deal in mediocrity, people will celebrate you, even when you are mediocre. But, if you deal in metaphysical treasures and antiquities, you had better meet the highest intellectual standards, or at least have a secure position in society and a classical education.

---

Also if you drop a huge portion of your ego, that helps things, especailly in what we are speaking about now, tremendously. Sticks and stones will break my bones,.....that kind of thing. The names may hurt you, but it's choice if they kill you or not or for just how long you will let them hurt you.

quote:

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No, I do not think I will be able to present my work and my self -- my dream -- before the world like that until sometime in my forties. But if I die before that, hopefully Melody or somebody will try to get my work published.

---

My unasked for advice? I say, don't limit yourself. Please don't. Would you like to present your work now? Does the thought of that make you happy? Is it more important to you, how you are recieved by the public or putting your heart and soul out there? Maybe the timing isnt right now or maybe your are too scared?

No matter when you choose to do it, it is going to be looked down upon by many. Of course it will. I think every writer has experienced this and always will. What if instead you were so well recieved by some, that it drowned out the "haters" voices? Wouldnt that be nice? What if there are people out there waiting....

Don't make yourself or them wait. Do what you do with pure, good hearted intention and things will fall into place. Believe in yourself.

Hope I'm not sounding too cheesy. I mean what I'm saying. Just consider not putting your life's work on hold. Tomorrow never comes, you know? Don't shrink.

quote:

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But someday I'm going to publish as Valus, and my book wont be just an anachronism, but a return to the eternal style. That will prove my exact trine from Vesta to Saturn, and mark me as a true and honest keeper of the flame.

---

Like Tomorrow, sometimes Someday never comes either.
Just keep that in mind.

Once again, let your light shine, madman.

I'm telling you. It's not as painful as it first seems. Just put yourself out there. And I dont mean on forums on the internet. Seriously think about publishing your dream now. What have you go to loose? Some hurt feelings from a peanut gallery that will always be there waiting for you, no matter when you do it, that you will eventually get over?

posted January 22, 2009 11:45 PM           

quote:

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So, the book would not be taken seriously by intellectuals,.. and the rest of the public would not probably not know what to make of it.

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So what? Really, it's that simple. So what? Ask yourself again and again?

What would happen to you if intellectuals didnt take it seriously?

Perhaps years down the road you'd go on to write bigger and better things. People would look back and appreciate and learn from it too. Then you would already have a leg in the door because you published something already. Your fans would be looking forward to reading your newest book and the other guys will be waiting to attack you again.

What if it saved someone's life and became a book they cherished? Wouldnt that be worth it?

No matter what, HSC, not everyone is going to like what you have to say. They might tear it apart. Then what? Really! Then what?

Think of Nietzsche, think of Osho. How badly have they been torn apart?

How many people have they helped?

quote:

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But, if you deal in metaphysical treasures and antiquities, you had better meet the highest intellectual standards, or at least have a secure position in society and a classical education.

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Not necessarily.

Who told you that?

It's your art and soul. Just express it and smile.

Those who "get it" will, and those who won't wont.

Eff em. Can't please them all. Don't even try.

posted January 22, 2009 11:55 PM           

Don't let them.

Really, it's your choice.

posted January 23, 2009 02:02 PM           

I want to reply more fully when I have the energy for it.

I just want to say that you are probably right about most of this.

But, also, it is important to me to present something I myself can be proud of.

At this point, I don't have enough solid material to fill even a thin volume.

And the stuff that is good never comes on command, but I wait for it.

I do have time. And I am enjoying the journey, for what its worth.

As it is now, if I did try to put it all in one book, it would just be a mish-mash
of disjointed thoughts and poems and fragments in very different styles.

But even that I could almost accept, if I thought a publisher could accept it.

I dont know. I've been really doubting myself lately.

And you say my pride would not sting so much, if my ego were weaker..
But I feel like it is the weakness of my ego that leaves me vulnerable
to the many points of view that inundate me and seek to dissolve my ground.

If I were not so open to everyone else..

Maybe what I lack is a strong ego.

Anyway, I'll respond to the other stuff in a bit.

Nietzsche is so cool.