posted June 02, 2008 02:48 AM            

Good thing I talked to you before I read this or that would have made me a little sad. I'm just happy you both finally spoke directly to each other.
And I can see how much of what I quickly plucked out of Sun Signs that dealt with the two signs when in "battle" would not be very complementary to either of you, and I actually looked through Libra and Libra woman to find something equally annoying to say about myself, and that quote was the best I could come up with. She mostly just says how wishy washy and indecisive and annoying Libra energy is the whole time. It's all pretty much true though.

That was basically just my "diplomatic" way of saying, yeah, Steve can be an ***hole if and when he wants to be, T, right? No biggie. and... Steve, T doesn't like to be messed with and now she will probably be stubborn about it cuz you hurt her and ****** her off.

For the record, I think your post is fabulous. Absolutely exemplary. Sorry you were seeing things darkly earlier. Everything will work out.

So, how inspirational is this thread, eh?

Come on, T, pull it out, make this thread rock! <3

posted June 02, 2008 08:32 AM              

Yes, you were trying your best to forget, I know. But I havent and I wont. That was the last straw. Now, that makes it seem like what you said really upset me or "p****** me off", like Melody said. That is not the case either. I was more shocked and then humored, than anything.

What I'm doing is taking a stand. This isnt a matter of holding a grudge or even a need to find forgiveness on my part. That doesnt come into play or question in this instance. I really am detatched from that "immature episode" and it is what it is, happened for good reason. Let us learn as much as we can from it.

My usual MO after these types of situations has always been to "forgive and forget". I dont even think much about it, it usually just "happens" automatically. Now I see that too quickly, too easily, I have brushed things aside too often and told people, 'it's okay. you didnt mean it. i forgive you. no problem. dont worry about me (i dont matter, im worthless). that was a rotten thing to do, but let's just start over.' Things like that. And I meant them. I understand why people do most of the things they do, especially out of pain. Well, guess what? I usually get burnt by these same people over and over again. I guess they continue to do what they do because they know I get over things quickly and I like to get back to a place of peace as quickly as possible and that might not always be the best way to go for me anymore, i'm realizing. Even if I "forgive" them in my heart or just "let it go", it may not be best to be so chummy and lighthearted with the person right away - or ever! I have a problem with that. I want people to be happy, comfortable at all costs. I put myself second all the time. Just because I want to see and believe in the best intentions in others, they may not truly be there and it may be best to move on all together. I have to remind myself of "worldly human ways" often. No, that's not coming from ego, it's the truth. I can be very naive and too trusting with people and it has gotten me into troubles. Then I can also switch gears and see right into the heart of a matter and know a person's move before they make it. Really, what is so wrong with that (moving on)? Live and learn and move to greener pastures. Not always easy for a Taurus, but sometimes necessary.

Yes, I responded to you in this thread. Pretty much to say I havent read what you wrote....and dont really care to. And now I have, and I disagree with a lot of it, but I dont want to argue or converse with you anymore, because that is not what you want anyway. I think you like to hear yourself talk and are often just showing off to whoever might be reading and not always looking to get to the heart of a matter or help. The "compliment" you gave me....well, I didnt know it was one. I didnt realize "I wish I had 'Sun trine Moon'" was a compliment. I dont see it as any great thing, so that explains that. When you say things like "I still think you can do better than Osho."; it really turns me off. You say things like that alot, "provoking" statements, as you like to say. Insinuating that you know something others dont or your take on something is higher and the poor souls who dont see it your way have a lot of learning - or listening to do. You often think you have others and their psyches figured out better than they do and I think it's comical.

Okay, you dont like Osho. You have made this clear time and again. But I do. Steve, this is a perfect example of how I often find you to be pompous and insulting on purpous. I wonder how you can do it and not see the error in it. Just because you havent found truth or goodness in something or someone, doesnt mean it isnt there and the people who see differently are misguided and need your point of view and opinion on something - over and over again, until they "get it". I'm perfectly capable of using my own judgement and discrimination and making up my own mind about something. And yes, it may be different than yours and you are not always right. No, I may not be as articulate or be able to get my ideas and thoughts across through words as well as some of you here, but that doesnt mean I need your perspective shoved down my throat and that I am not understanding something just because I dont see everything your way, that I need some help in seeing it until I see it exactly how you see it.

Just as you are more than a Scorpio, I am more than a Taurus and I am more than my Sun trine Moon.

quote:

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I often come across things in my reading
that remind me of someone I know, and seem like they might be useful to them,
and then I just go ahead and show it to them.

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That's nice of you. I find that I often don't resonate to the excerpts you post or the ideas you write and dont finish reading them. You may feel the same way about what I post, the material that interests me. We dont see eye to eye on a lot of issues, I think.

quote:

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If not, then, I will do my best to respect that too;
to try to steer clear of you somewhat from now on,
and allow you to move on in your own way.
I really dont mean that in any backhanded way.
I think this is just a matter of personal choice.
I just want to smooth things over and make things cool.

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Thanks, I appreciate that. That is probably the best way to go at this point. Things are cool now and really always have been.

I hope this clears the air up.

And thanks for your response.

All the best.

posted June 02, 2008 08:45 AM              

....as if he's my abusive boyfriend. lol!
and i only "love" him because I have low self esteem.

posted June 02, 2008 08:46 AM              

quote:

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Come on, T, pull it out, make this thread rock! <3

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posted June 02, 2008 11:41 AM            

And since I said your writing is excellent, I want to make clear that I meant the form... as far as the content goes I will only say that I still believe Steve has the best intentions most of the time. I would have hoped for a different outcome, but it looks like God and Mercury (and everything else) Retrograde have their own ideas on the matter.

And for the record, since I'm the one who comes out looking like an idiot in this instance, I don't mind saying that I don't believe for a minute that either of you care so little for this friendship so if you really are going to say goodbye, you should at least feel the sadness and pain of the loss if separation really is for the best. And maybe it really is... because you really DON'T understand each other.

posted June 02, 2008 04:36 PM              

I dont think it's so sad or unfortunate, Mel. When growing ceases between people it's best to move on. Not all friends are friends for life and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people come in for a reason, or a season, or a lifetime. I realized today I kind of like "endings", or can appreciate them greatly at least. They help me to see the beauty of what was and what always will be. Most importantly what was learned. They are full of a richness that can be explored and dug up for a very long time. No love is lost in my heart only gratitude for the growth and learning experience that comes along with any friendship or relationship with another child of God on this planet. End times can be beautiful times when looking at the overall picture and the truth that was always there.

I had a vision earlier of people scuba diving. When under water there is mysterious beauty in an unfamiliar territory. I've never done it but i'm sure there is nothing quite like it. At some point though you have to come back up to the surface. It's the end of your excursion, it had to happen sometime. How nice to come back up and breathe in the air though. How lovely that you will always have the memory of your beautiful experience. You arent going to cry that it's over. Life is like that. I'm not explaining it right - and the sensitive types will think me a real brute , but i'm rushed, but maybe you get the idea in a nutshell.

About my writing; i figured out today that most of what I want to say are things that cant be put properly into words. It's more of an inner language that doesnt translate into words - to me at least. The heart cant speak, the words are too big or really just dont exist. I also hesitate to write much because when people reply I can tell that I didnt get what I wanted to get across quite so well, or they just plain interpreted it their own way. But such is life. I guess my words disappoint me more than anyone else. I'm not at home or satisfied in a worded world. So it's strange here.

It's not that I dont "care" about this friendship, truly. I understand how it could seem that way to some though.

quote:

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...you should at least feel the sadness and pain of the loss if separation really is for the best.

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Should I? If it's for the best than I would feel good about it. I dont really believe in seperation. No one has died. Even if they did, we arent seperated. Steve and I will still be around.
So, I guess I dont see it as so sad. Not much has changed really.

Maybe if you knew about all the seperations I've endured in my lifetime, you would understand. They have sent me searching and since, I have learned alot about what seperation means, what it is and isnt, to me through them.

You see a different Steve than I do, Mel. He's a nice person, but I dont put him or anyone on a pedestal. And our "work" together is done here.

Also, I do understand Steve.

" Nothing happens by chance, my friend... No such thing as luck. A meaning behind every little thing, and such a meaning behind this. Part for you, part for me, may not see it all real clear right now, but we will, before long. "
Richard Bach

posted June 02, 2008 07:26 PM              

I dont want to beat a dead horse, but I'm going to briefly try to make myself a bit clearer, as it seems that I have been misunderstood on some points. I cant help but feel that these moments provide valuable opportunities to get to the heart and bedrock of our differences as people, and that, while it may be tempting to simply detach and leave the knots in tangles, to be unravelled in another life, or to resolve themselves in unconscious processes, there is a chance that a last ditch effort at understanding may prove surprisingly fruitful. Even if all we accomplish is a clearer recognition of our irreconcilability, I think that is something. Maybe you've already arrived at that, but I have not. If this is indeed the case, then please look indulgently upon me as I continue to work out the sums for myself.

When you think I am pushing some point of view, I may only be offering it for consideration. I have a very open mind, and, often, the views I express do not reflect my own perspective, or what I know, or think I know, but, what I am currently exploring, and I pass them on, not to teach you, but to suggest something to you, as it is being suggested to me. However it may appear to you, I am not the least bit convinced of my own infallibility. Nor do I chalk it up to "deafness", when a person does not agree with my point of view. When people disagree with me on matters of doctrine, I am frequently capable of seeing it as a fundamental difference of perspective, and considering that what is true for me is not true for them, and that this is perhaps how it ought to be, according to a higher plan, which I am in no priviledged position to observe. I tend to reflect on the need for variety in life, and for a variety of teachers and teachings. I think, the person whose mind is a garden and the person whose mind is a jungle both offer a path of intrinsic worth, which may be suitable for some, but not for all.

When it comes to the interaction of two very different teachers, or students, as you and I certainly appear to be, I think that two possibilities present themselves. First, it may be a case of "too many cooks in the kitchen", and we may just get in each other's way, and prevent each other from making progress. This has been the case, all too often, between us, and if I saw no other alternative, I would be quick to agree that we should just walk on opposite sides of the street, and leave it at that. But the second possibility is what keeps me coming back for more. It is the possibility of discovery. When I contradict you, I am not attempting to get the last word, but, to open the lines of communication, in the hope that you may supply some missing piece of the puzzle, and that, together, we may arrive at a higher synthesis in both our philosophies.

I do not fully know what it means that the outer and the inner are identical, or if we turn away from ourselves when we turn away from one another. If there is no difference, there is no difference, and, in practical terms, the saying "what is within is identical, or analogous, to what is without" ultimately admits to nonsense; to saying nothing. Just as the Diamond Sutra, when it says "all characteristics are no characteristics" gives expression to something which is, at once, infinitely profound, and infinitely meaningless. But I seem to find that my own unconscious processes are brought to the surface through interaction with others, while they are all too easy to conceal from myself in times of isolation. Again, these are all things that I consider, and not convictions that I am pushing.

You initially responded to me in this thread with the words: "Thanks. I will read what you wrote another time." Followed by a smiley face. This is a far cry from "I havent read what you wrote....and dont really care to." This is a clear contradiction. As evolved as you are, you ought to be flexible enough to admit something so plain as this. Your denial of this is just one instance of what creates a growing suspicion in me that you have a tendency to avoid conflict and to distort facts and experiences, while deeming it the highest wisdom.

Moving on can be a great and liberating thing, but it can also be an evasion into further isolation. Before you leave another relationship in your wake, consider what many older people have found in their experiences: That, when we are young, we tend to think the opportunities for real connection are limitless, and that our soul mate is just around the corner. As we get older, we find that the people with whom we can share any kind of deeper connection are, in fact, quite rare. We find ourselves alone and friendless, still waiting on those soul mates to come along. Perhaps we already met them along the way, and turned our backs on them, the instant they contacted something deep in us. At least, this is what I have heard from folks with more life experience than myself. Relationships take work. And any relationship of any real depth involves compromise and, above all, communication. Maybe you really are as self-contained as you often appear, and completely satisfied with "superficial" relationships that always go your way, or leave you where they find you. Maybe not.

This is the last time you will hear me on the topic of Osho... I have no doubt that there are many valuable jewels in his books, but, that they have been gleaned from other teachers, and that they are mixed with many shiny pieces of plastic that can easily pass for jewels. I think we need to be on guard against every teacher and every teaching, for I doubt the truth has ever been, or may ever be, expressed entirely free of impurities. For this reason, I seek out those teachers who, though I must be on guard against, I do not suspect them of willful misrepresentation, or psychosis. Osho's megalomaniacal claims of infallibility are a huge turn-off. In addition to that, whatever lofty sentiments and insights he has been inspired with, or merely been inclined to plagerize, he was also a megalomaniac drug-addict and dissinformationist, who molested women, and poisoned people for political ends. Those are confirmed facts. Those are not instances of Steve being a pompous know-it-all. It is not that I dont see good in him or his work, but, that I see a lot of error, and a lot less good than I find in dozens of other spiritual teachers. If Osho was the last deep thinker on earth, I would treasure his works as invaluable, but, the truth is that we have access to teachers of a much, much higher vibration. The bottom line is that Osho liked to hear himself talk, and he liked to fleece well-intentioned, undiscriminating people out of money for his next Rolls Royce. He had no real desire to get at the heart of anything.... So there.

I think thats everything; on my end, at least.

posted June 02, 2008 09:18 PM              

quote:

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You initially responded to me in this thread with the words: "Thanks. I will read what you wrote another time." Followed by a smiley face. This is a far cry from "I havent read what you wrote....and dont really care to." This is a clear contradiction. As evolved as you are, you ought to be flexible enough to admit something so plain as this.

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Yes, Steve. Would you have rather me said it the second way the first time? I was hoping you might catch my drift the first time. I didnt want to hurt your feelings like you tried to do to me awhile back. I was trying to say away from you like you asked and hoping you would continue avoiding me.

quote:

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Your denial of this is just one instance of what creates a growing suspicion in me that you have a tendency to avoid conflict and to distort facts and experiences, while deeming it the highest wisdom.

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I do not avoid conflict, ask anyone who knows me. Conflict does not often come to me, but when it does I stare it straight in the eye and deal with it in the best way i know how.

Once again, you dont have a clue about me and my tendencies. I cant even begin to start addressing the beginning part of your post so I've skipped over it.

quote:

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Moving on can be a great and liberating thing, but it can also be an evasion into further isolation.

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Keywords: can be

quote:

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Before you leave another relationship in your wake, consider what many older people have found in their experiences: That, when we are young, we tend to think the opportunities for real connection are limitless, and that our soul mate is just around the corner. As we get older, we find that the people with whom we can share any kind of deeper connection are, in fact, quite rare.

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Please consider that I have considered all this and much more many times in my life. You are not asking me to consider anything new. I dont "leave relationships in my wake". That "older person" you are asking me to consider IS me and the people we can share any kind of deeper connection with ARE quite rare. I'm well aware of this. What's your point? You are not telling me about some "older person", your talking about me. And I know who I can have a deeper reationship with and who I cannot. So I dont bother with the ones I cannot.

quote:

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We find ourselves alone and friendless, still waiting on those soul mates to come along.

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I am alone and "friendless", if that is what you want to call it, and also happy and not lonely. I am not waiting on any soul mate to come along.

quote:

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Perhaps we already met them along the way, and turned our backs on them, the instant they contacted something deep in us.

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Youre saying "we". Is that what you, personally have done? I've been with a few "soulmates" and not turned my back on them when they contacted something deep. You think it's that simple? That doesnt even make any sense.

quote:

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Relationships take work. And any relationship of any real depth involves compromise and, above all, communication.

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Yeah? Your point? I've had enough of them to know. Thanks.

quote:

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Maybe you really are as self-contained as you often appear, and completely satisfied with "superficial" relationships that always go your way, or leave you where they find you. Maybe not.

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Listen up. What makes you think you know anything about the relationships that go on in my daily life? No relationship I have is "superficial" and "always goes my way". FAR from it.

And what is so hard to believe about someone being as "self contained as they appear" to be to you? What would be wrong with that? It doesnt automatically mean someone only carries on superficial relationships - what ever those are!! Do such things exist?

I'm glad that's the last time I will hear you on the topic of Osho. I think he's a lot like you in some ways and that's why you cant stand him.

quote:

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I have no doubt that there are many valuable jewels in his books, but, that they have been gleaned from other teachers, and that they are mixed with many shiny pieces of plastic that can easily pass for jewels.

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Very good. That is exactly how I see everything you have to say too. How are you different from him in that way? How is anyone?

quote:

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I think we need to be on guard against every teacher and every teaching, for I doubt the truth has ever been, or may ever be, expressed entirely free of impurities.

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Why are you telling me this? Seriously. Do you think because a teacher really speaks loud and clear to me, I then take everything they say as truth, as free from impurities? Do you realize I do not agree with every single thing Osho teaches?

quote:

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Osho's megalomaniacal claims of infallibility are a huge turn-off. In addition to that, whatever lofty sentiments and insights he has been inspired with, or merely been inclined to plagerize, he was also a megalomaniac drug-addict and dissinformationist,

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LOL! Sounds familiar.

quote:

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dissinformationist, who molested women, and poisoned people for political ends. Those are confirmed facts.

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I'm inclined to think those facts are not straight.

quote:

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It is not that I dont see good in him or his work, but, that I see a lot of error, and a lot less good than I find in dozens of other spiritual teachers. If Osho was the last deep thinker on earth, I would treasure his works as invaluable, but, the truth is that we have access to teachers of a much, much higher vibration.

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No sh*t!!! Youre not talking to Mannu here, HSC!

quote:

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The bottom line is that Osho liked to hear himself talk, and he liked to fleece well-intentioned, undiscriminating people out of money for his next Rolls Royce. He had no real desire to get at the heart of anything....

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Alriiight Steve. If you say so, if you say so...

I hope we are done misunderstanding each other once and for all now.