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Author Topic:   The Devil
taj
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posted March 31, 2003 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for taj     Edit/Delete Message
seeking enlightenment on the meaning of The Devil as an 'advice' card....

does it mean one has to pay attention to the material aspect of life? if this is the case, then the devil is incorrectly portrayed as 'negative' incarnate?

thanks for any help.

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moth
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posted March 31, 2003 02:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moth     Edit/Delete Message
Just my personal opinion, I read by what I have studied about the cards and my gut feelings --here goes...

The Devil CAN represent diabolical forces, but not always--depends upon what else is in the reading, what the question may be, etc., so do not toss that interpretation aside completely.

To me, the Devil card has slight deviant sexual connotations but also means the feeling of being bound to something due to your own imposed restrictions, the chains that bind are released if you try.

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Aselzion
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posted March 31, 2003 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Hello again taj...

The Devil, is a fascinating, and I think often misunderstood card.

I think that we are apt to interpret it negatively at face value simply by it's name and of course the obvious "negative" symbolism on the card. But when you kind of analyze it, it shines with a new light.

The Hebrew letter connected with The Devil, is Ayin which can be translated in several ways: primrily it means EYE. Which I think is a clue that we need to give this particular Key another "look". Ayin also means, "a fountain", and "outward show, or superficial appearance". I think this is very telling if you meditate on what that might mean.

Is there really a force in the Universe that can oppose God? Outwardly it may "appear" that way, but in REALITY, I think not! I have often quoted this particular passage when discussing this card, "The Devil is God as He is misunderstood by the wicked". Think on this, and tell me what it might mean to you.

The Devil, astrologically, is related to the sign Capricorn. Saturn, ruler of Capricorn, implies "things that bind, or close in; restriction". What is matter, but Spirit, or energy, "bound up" in a form we can perceive with our physical senses? Another keynote for The Devil is BONDAGE.

Is the Devil what happens when our human fears run amok? Do we, as humans, often forget Who We Really Are? Many times we make a distinction between things of the Physical world, and things of the Spiritual world. Is the Devil, perhaps a clue that the one, and the other are not so very different?

OK, I'm rambling now, probably from lack of sleep.. worked the weekend on the night shift, and this is really what should be bed time for me.

Spiral on these thoughts, and let's discuss them further, eh?

Blessed Be...
A

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A Learning Angel
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posted March 31, 2003 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A Learning Angel     Edit/Delete Message
Aselzion,

What do you call the dark energy that makes the hair on the back of your neck literally stand up and creates the gut reaction of your soul wanting to flee? Is it pure evil and not a form of the Devil?

Hope all is well. ALA

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Aselzion
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posted March 31, 2003 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Hello ALA...

Well that feeling would be Fear.

Now, I'm not saying that there is no evil in the world, or even in the astral realms, all one needs to do is look at the news, movies, television or read books describing the horrible things that people do to each other.

Can we sense, "evil" in another person. Yes, I believe we can. Is evil a force that moves in the universe, of course! How would we know one thing from another in this physical reality without Duality? Poles or opposites exist so that we can make definitions and choices.

Is there a Devil? Yes! WE, human beings CREATED him/it/her through fear and the perversion of energy. Can this force that we created actually OPPOSE God, or undo God's blessings in any TRUE way... not so sure, but I'm thinking not.

In terms of energetics, there are some people or entities or energies that we resonate with. These we call Good. There are also forces that we clash with, or do not resonate with, or turn away from in revulsion. These we call Bad.

Can people, Souls, entities turn from God by their Free Will Choice? Yes! Can they then turn back to God again? Absolutely.

Neale Donald Walsch, in Conversations with God,once shocked me with the words, "Even Hitler went to Heaven".

What are your thoughts on this? Great food for spiraling here, gentle people.

In the Light...
A

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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." - Antoine de Saint Exupery, The Little Prince

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A Learning Angel
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posted March 31, 2003 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A Learning Angel     Edit/Delete Message
Aselzion,

Let me share an experience...about 25 years ago I was standing in a grocery store line. Suddenly, coming up from behind me, I sensed something so EVIL the hair on the back of my neck stood straight up and I had a flash of violent, bloody killing. I did not see the person walk up behind me. I sensed him. My SOUL felt like it was trying to run away and it took all of my self control NOT to immediately flee but instead continue to stand in line and pay for my groceries. AND once outside, I had to stop my feet from running to my car.

Bottom line, I could NOT have projected fear in this situation because I did not see the person coming up behind me. Second, I had never really thought about evil so I couldn't have projected this type of evil. So no, my ego definitely did not project in this situation. I have NO doubt that I sensed the presence of raw evil. From that time forward, I have believed in evil...intuitively.

To this day I still remember that experience and there is no doubt in my mind I did not project fear into that situation. You will have to trust me when I say I did not feel fear but evil.

Any comments?

ALA

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Aselzion
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posted March 31, 2003 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings ALA....

Yes you did sense FEAR. There are two base emotions, or sponsoring thoughts, one is LOVE and the opposite is FEAR.

Now, I didn't say that you projected fear... but you ran into something that was so alien, and so repulsive, you went into "fight or flight response". And no, you did not have to SEE it to KNOW it for what it was... a perversion of energy, or Evil.

I had an experience similar in form, but different in degree. When I was in high school, I was at a mall, getting a bite with a friend at the Food Court. My back was to the flow of "traffic" as I ordered my meal, but I felt a wave of "wrongness" hit me, and made my "hackles raise".

I determined to find the cause, and turned around to see a man walking away from me toward the exit. I contrived to get a peek from the front, and sure as day follows night, when I got around in front of the person that caused my "feeling", I spotted an inverted Pentagram around his neck. I am "sure" without knowing for a fact, that this man was involved in rituals that perverted energy.

So, I am not saying that you saw the person and felt badly based on a visual cue.. you simply felt the "perversion of energies" psychically, and reacted to that... but that reaction was based in Fear. Again.. the "fight or flight" mechanism.. which I believe stems from our Spiritual senses.

Hope that makes a wee bit more sense in that context.

Bright Blessings...
A

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A Learning Angel
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posted March 31, 2003 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A Learning Angel     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you for you comments, Aselzion. Your answer is not hitting a truth with me. I have also felt raw fear and it is a totally different feeling from what I experienced 25 years ago. Regardless you have given me food for thought and that I thank you.

I have always embraced learning and rethinking my opinions as I do believe: IN THE UNIVERSE EVERYTHING CHANGES.

ALA

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moth
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posted March 31, 2003 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moth     Edit/Delete Message
Well, don't we humans need a scapegoat for all the evil in the world? I see the "Devil" as this scapegoat. I don't personally believe in a "Devil" but rather that man (humankind) breeds and perpetuates evil. Evil entities of another plane?--maybe. I am open but undecided about that.

Is this what you are getting at Aselzion. I don't think I quite understand what you are asking.

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Aselzion
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posted March 31, 2003 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings...

Evil exists so that we may know good. Cold exists so that we may know hot. Not only know these things intellectually, but to actually experience them in physical reality. Is that not why we are here?

Do demons and devils exist... Yes! Because we create them, we give them power. Whenever anyone kills in the name of Satan, or burns a black candle at midnight to wreak vengence on a foe... we add Power and therefore reality to the thouhtform we call the Devil.

I don't know how to explain it in any other way. We are all aspects of God, with creative power. When we use that power to add to a negative thoughtform (a demon, or the Devil or what have you) that thoughtform grows stronger. Thus we create the Devil.

I'll meditate on this further and see if I can find a way to be more eloquent and clear... perhaps I haven't had enough sleep... it's been a long, strange day.

At any rate...

I bid you Peace...
A

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shamrock227
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posted March 31, 2003 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shamrock227     Edit/Delete Message
According to Joseph Campbell ("The Power of Myth") whom I consider brilliant in a lot of ways. (If you haven't read him, you really should check him out). He called "The Devil" God's greatest lover. Before you jump - check this out....

In the beginning God made the Angels as his perfect beings and commanded them to serve and love only him. As time goes by, God creates man. God decides that man is his perfect, chosen beings and commands the angels to assist and serve man. Lucifer, ultimately loving God, could only love and serve God. Would not, could not serve man. For his defiance, God banished him from Heaven. That's where hell comes in -- it's not a fiery pit, but eternal separation from the Diety. That is what "the devil" is - not eternal evil, but eternal anguish.

Mr. Campbell explains it so much better.

That being said...I believe evil does exist in this world. And, I think that the harder you try to be "good" the more sensitive you are to it. I think that could explain why you guys got the heebie jeebies before you even saw what was bothering you.

Back to the original topic...

This may be a really basic, simplistic translation of the card. But, I've always viewed it as being "chained to" or hung up on some vice. I usually pull this card if I've asked about Money/Career or When will I meet someone too often. It's like the card is saying "will you get your mind off money/material things/sex for a minute and think about more important things

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taj
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posted April 01, 2003 01:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for taj     Edit/Delete Message
shamrock,
early this morning, was thinking about this topic and thought i should've added the word 'card' to it because it might not be very clear... yet that's why the words 'flexibility' and 'versatility' were invented. ...and from what's come up so far, what nice words they are!

and i have to clarify my question, too. in a spread re a career question, i am advised to say no to a certain card (have forgotten which one now but it hit home...i think the Star reversed.) and say YES to The Devil. thus my question.

moth,
thanks for the input.

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taj
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posted April 01, 2003 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for taj     Edit/Delete Message
A,
"The Devil is BONDAGE" and bondage is TEACHER. that's what saturn is, not? was also thinking about saturn this morning and thinking that i LIKE him! he is a hard taskmaster but of course, his lessons are for growth, and he doesnt give you a chance to complain since you're so busy dealing with what is doled out from his department. . oohh! that may be the EYE of it, A! ok, that just came to me. let's see...

well, of course, saturn the teacher makes you see, opens your eyes...there is then clarity. like a fountain, knowledge can run clear like water (water is primarily pure and colorless), spouting off from a source..there's that phrase 'fountain of wisdom'.. a fountain in a garden always fascinates and draws the eye because there's that quality to it that responds to an innate aesthetic sense which has its roots in realms that are beyond the material. ..but then a fountain is usually situated in front of house..(the self in dream symbology)...it can then represent beauty that distracts...an outward show or superficial appearance...such that we forget what we shoukld be looking at or for...typing my thoughts as i go... so that answers your question if 'we, as humans, often forget Who We Really Are'...so 'the Devil is a clue that the one, and the other are not so very different.'... hah! i've taken it a long way now. whew!!! have a nice sleep, A.

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aquamoon
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posted April 01, 2003 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aquamoon     Edit/Delete Message
Taj, I have kind of a soft spot for ol' Saturn as well.


A, you say - Ayin also means, "a fountain", and "outward show, or superficial appearance".
That makes sense if you look at it to mean that all evil is superficial, because what is intrinsic and real to each one of the 'Us-of Us' is true and pure and good. When we start to lose touch with ourselves, constantly looking 'outward' and not nearly enough inward, we get caught up in a superficial existance which leads us away from what the voice within is saying and we create a climate conducive to the fostering of evil.

discussion, people!

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A Learning Angel
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posted May 31, 2003 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A Learning Angel     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Aselzion, remember this discussion? Is this what you were saying to me?

There are Shadow Angels today - some dark and some light. They were created in ancient times when worshippers made messengers of Gods (i.e. the Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael) Gods in their own right. Fueled in time by the power of belief these shadow projections developed a shadowy life of their own; thus, people started worshiping a projection of their forebearer's projection and not the real thing. Shadowy projections are shadowy analogues to one of the archangels. The more people embrace the shadow the stronger it becomes and eventually can take on physical substance.

So in summary, a devil or satan was created by worshippers projecting darkness. Also, wouldn 't this explain the Fallen Angel theory?

Any thoughts?

P.S. Have you every read the Adept books by Katherine Kurtz and Deborah Turner Harris?

P.P.S. QUINNIE I THINK YOU WOULD LOVE THESE BOOKS!

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Randall
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posted June 01, 2003 05:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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Aselzion
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posted June 01, 2003 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aselzion     Edit/Delete Message
Hi there ALA...

Sorry it's taken a while to respond.. been working and sleeping the past few days away!

Ummm.. I think I get what you mean... but I do believe that God created the Archangels and Angels. I have actually had several "awarenesses" of their presence in my life, and I don't think that they were "shadow projections".

Mostly when I talk about The Devil as a thoughtform people add power to thus giving it a life of its own, I'm not referring to the Angels. I don't belive that God created a Devil, just my humble opinion.

However, I suppose if people can add power to the thought of a Devil and demons etc., they can also add power to the Angels.

I guess the "shadow projection" thing just seems a wee bit complicated. I do believe that the Universe works according to Cosmic Law, and also that that Law is rational. It has to make sense, and as Linda often said, it should be fairly simple, as the truth is most often hidden in simplicity.

Perhaps in my state of physical depletion, my mind isn't grasping what you are trying to say.

Make any sense?

Peace and Blessings of L.V.X.
A

P.S. Yes, I love most of Katherine Kurtz's works! I wasn't too thrilled with the Knights Templar stuff, but loved the Adept series and the Deryni chronicles. Ever notice all the Qabalistic/Masonic symbolism in those series?!


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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." - Antoine de Saint Exupery, The Little Prince

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A Learning Angel
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posted June 01, 2003 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A Learning Angel     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Aselzion,

I did not do a very good job of explaining the idea. I will try it again.

First, I, too, believe God created Angels and Archangels. No doubt in my mind.

Second, I, too, had an "awareness" of an angel in my life and there was NO shadow whatsoever. Only love. In fact, it is because of that experience I KNOW without a doubt fear, anger, etc do NOT come from God and that my God is a loving God.

As I understood the material...when these true angels of God did come to Earth people started to worship these angels as gods. i.e. AA Michael came to Earth and the ancients who saw him gave him a name and started worshiping AA Michael under that name instead of ackowledging him as an angel from God It was their projection of AA Michael they were worshipping - not AA Michael. Soon this worhsip gave the projected god power and it became real.

When I read this I thought maybe this was want you meant when you said "Do demons and evils exist?...Yes! Because we create them, we give them power.."

Maybe this has become a bit complicated. As I strongly beleive is the KISS theory, I'll leave it here.

I loved the Adept series, too. I WANT AN ADAM SINCLAIR! Very cool character...I have not read the Deryni chronicles, yet. I keep re-reading the Adept series. I'm not sure about the Qabalistic/Masonic symbols. Can you name a few?

Thanks for the comments and take care.

ALA

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Randall
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posted June 02, 2003 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Cool conversation.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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