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Author Topic:   Message for Lotusheartone, Fayte, and Mannu--
silverstone
Knowflake

Posts: 284
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted April 03, 2006 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverstone     Edit/Delete Message
If you have time.... I feel that the information in the New Book by Sylvia Browne, "If You Could See What I See" may be valuable information in putting pieces together, this is just FYI- Pages 193 and so on... Page 203... and pages 183.... On page 194 the coss theory may be political today? Do you all feel that he did not die on the cross? Or that perhaps the crucifixion never took place? With extensive research Sylvia found that the crucifixion did happen but she agrees that Jesus did not die on the cross....


Happy thoughts,

------------------
Silverstone

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

Posts: 5572
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 03, 2006 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Ggod Day! I'm sorry..but my time is limited..hoping to be on my way tomorrow..or no later than Wednesday..to NH..yeah!

Do you really think that GodFather..would have his "so Called" "Son" die for all our sins..do you think this is part of the Universal Laws and God's Judgement?
NO..is the answer..Jesus was not crucified..he lived to be 53..

What a story they put together..to breed fear..and command obediance in the name of God..Shame on you Roman Catholic Churh..and others. ...

Sending EveryOne Lots of Love..

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fayte.m
Knowflake

Posts: 4102
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
Registered: Mar 2005

posted April 03, 2006 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
I do not endorse Ms.Browne. I read some of her stuff and was VERY disappointed.
And Jesus did not die on the cross.
And....I believe he was 80 something...
and the folks at this link believe about 102. www.tombofjesus.com

IF he had died on the cross...
(which he did not)....

I submit this for your ponderings:

He died "for" our sins.

"FOR" means BECAUSE of...as a result of.
NOT "for", as in voluntary sacrifice.

It means....
The mob were "sinners" bigots and lynchminded.
He died because they wanted to crucify someone.


------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-

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TINK
Knowflake

Posts: 2779
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003

posted April 29, 2006 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
The crucifixion is an ugly, crude, incomprehensible thing if one sees only the physical aspect.

What took place behind the scenes, so to speak, always seemed to me infinitly more valuable.

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silverstone
Knowflake

Posts: 284
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted May 01, 2006 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverstone     Edit/Delete Message
I agree... behind the scenes...

Cheers,

------------------
~*Silverstone~*

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TINK
Knowflake

Posts: 2779
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003

posted May 01, 2006 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
I reread my post. Possibly a misunderstanding? If so, my fault. I don't refer to the cloak and dagger, who-done-it mystery aspect. Although it can make for interesting parlor talk and I'm certainly not above engaging in it from time to time. I meant to point out the significance of the spiritual side of it.

What happens physically during a death by crucifixion is horrific, no doubt. But what happened spiritually - for lack of a better word - is my question. In other words, why was it necessary? What ancient alchemey was being employed?

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silverstone
Knowflake

Posts: 284
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted May 01, 2006 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverstone     Edit/Delete Message
Good comments Tink... I think what is definately important is the spiritual side...

------------------
~*Silverstone~*

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fayte.m
Knowflake

Posts: 4102
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
Registered: Mar 2005

posted May 02, 2006 08:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
Crucifixion
Crucifixion was hardly (if ever) performed for ritual or symbolic reasons; usually, its purpose was only to provide a particularly painful, gruesome, and public death, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal, crucifixion is only an arbitrary subset of a much wider continuous spectrum of slow and painful execution methods, which include varied forms of impalement (The act of piercing with a sharpened stake as a form of punishment or torture) hanging from hooks,burning at the stake, exposure to wild beasts, etc.
Therefore, the details of crucifixion must have varied considerably with location and epoch, and even from case to case; and very little can be said about the practice in general.
Crucifixion was rarely performed for ritual or symbolic reasons. Usually, its purpose to provide a particularly painful, gruesome, and public death, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal.
Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang there until dead. It is widely considered a not uncommon but extremely dishonorable and excruciating form of judicial execution in the Roman Empire, though similar methods were employed in other ancient cultures such as Persia. Crucifixion has special significance in Christianity, which holds that Jesus was crucified but later resurrected. Because of this the Christian cross or crucifix has become the main symbol of Christianity (an alternative symbol in Roman days was the Ichthys).
Crucifixion was used by the Romans until about 313 AD, when Christianity became the dominant faith in Rome. However, it has been used in various places in modern times.
Details of crucifixion
Crucifixion was rarely performed for ritual or symbolic reasons. Usually, its purpose was to provide a particularly painful, gruesome, and public death, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal. Widely different crucifixion methods varied considerably with location and time period.
Two methods were followed in the infliction of the punishment of crucifixion. In both of these the criminal was first stripped naked, and bound to an upright stake, where he was scourged. After this, the victim was dressed again, and if able was made to drag the stake to the place of execution. At this point he was again stripped naked, and was either fastened to it, or impaled upon it, and left to die. In this method, the crux simplex of Justus Lipsius, a single stake was used.
The other method is described in the New Testament account of the crucifixion of Jesus. In such a case, after the scourging at the stake, the criminal was made to carry a gibbet, formed of two transverse bars of wood, to the place of execution, and he was then fastened to it by iron nails driven through the outstretched arms and through the ankles. Sometimes this was done as the cross lay on the ground, and it was then lifted into position. In other cases the criminal was made to ascend by a ladder, and was then fastened to the cross. Probably the feebleness, or state of collapse, from which the criminal must often have suffered, had much to do in deciding this.
It is not quite clear which of these two plans was followed in the case of the crucifixion of Christ, but the more general opinion has been that he was nailed to the cross on the ground, and that it was then lifted into position. The contrary opinion, has, however, prevailed to some extent, and there are representations of the crucifixion which depict him as mounting a ladder placed against the cross. Such representations may, however, have been due to a pious desire, on the part of their authors, to emphasize the voluntary offering of himself as the Saviour of the World, rather than as being intended for actual pictures of the scene itself. It may be noted, however, that among the Emblems of the Passion, as they are called, and which were very favorite devices in the middle ages, the ladder is not infrequently found in conjunction with the crown of thorns, nails, spear, and other related items.
Cross shape
The horizontal beam of the cross, or transom, could be fixed at the very top of the vertical piece, the upright, to form a capital T called a tau cross or Saint Anthony's cross. According to some unikely theories, this shape had its origin in ancient Babylonia as the symbol of the god Tammuz, being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the Greek initial of his name. The horizontal beam could also be affixed at some distance below the top, often in a mortise, to form a lowercase t-shape called a Latin cross, and a sign was fastened to the top with the name of the victim, used for executing kings. To mock Christ as "King of the Jews," tradition holds that Christ was crucified on such a cross. Alternatively, the cross could consist of two diagonal beams to form an X, alternatively known as the decussate cross (after decem, Latin for 'ten', 'X' being the Roman numeral for ten) or as Saint Andrew's cross.
Additionally, evidence supports that malefactors were sometimes nailed to a "crux simplex" , a single, upright wooden stake, with no transom at all, which was often used for ancient ordeals similar to crucifixion. The original Greek word "stauros", typically translated "cross", actually indicates a simple upright pole or stake. Similiarly, the Greek word "xy'lon", also translated "cross", literally means "a stick, club, or tree". It is believed that by the middle of the 3rd century AD, pagans received into the churches sometimes retained their pagan signs and symbols, hence the Tau or T, with the cross-piece lowered, is said to have been adopted to stand for the cross of Christ. Of course, archaeological and literary evidence discussed elsewhere in this article supports that actual crosses were indeed used as a very real means of execution, but certain hagiographies concur with occasional variations in shape, e.g. upside down or X-shaped (saltire).
Location of the nails
Religious depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus typically show him supported by nails through the palms.For the sake of expediency, the victim was probably affixed to the cross by ropes, nails, or some combination of the two. In popular depictions of crucifixion (possibly derived from a literal reading of the translated description in the Gospel of John, of Jesus' wounds being "in the hands"), the Victim is shown supported only by nails driven straight through the feet and the palms of the hands, which is possible, if there was a foot-rest to relieve the weight; on their own, the hands could not support the full body weight.
Another possibility, that does not require tying, is that the nails were inserted just above the wrist, between the two bones of the forearm (the radius and the ulna). The nails could also be driven through the wrist, in a space between four carpal bones (which is the location shown in the Shroud of Turin). As some historians have suggested, the Gospel word ÷åéñ (cheir) that is translated as "hand" may have in fact included everything below the mid-forearm. Indeed, Acts 12:7 uses this word to report chains falling off from Peter's "hands", although the chains would be around what we would call "wrists". This shows that the semantic range of ÷åéñ is wider than the English "hand", and can incorporate nails through the wrist.
Another possibility, suggested by Frederick Zugibe, is that the nails may have been driven in on an angle, entering in the palm in the crease that delineates the bulky region at the base of the thumb, and exiting in the wrist, passing through the carpal tunnel.
A sedile, or a foot-rest, was often attached to the cross, for the purpose of taking the man's weight off the wrists. This was most likely a simple peg or slab of wood, upon which the man would rest the feet.
A new study and a documentory on the Geographic channel "Quest for Truth: The Crucifixion," as well as a brief news article on the experiment and the documentory, have shown that a person can be suspended by the wrists. As the ankles are nailed to the side of the cross producing little strain on the wrists. They also say the palms are a likely place for the nails as it would cause the maximum amount of pain and trauma.
Cause of death
Death could come in hours or days, depending on exact methods, the health of those crucified, and environmental circumstances.
A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that the typical cause of death was asphyxiation. He conjectured that when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the victim would have severe difficulty exhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the lungs. The victim would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. Indeed, Roman executioners were said to break the victim's legs, after he had hung for some time, in order to hasten his death. Once deprived of support and unable to lift himself, the victim would die within a few minutes.
If death did not come from asphyxiation, it could result from a number of other causes, including physical shock caused by the scourging that preceded the crucifixion, and the nailing itself, dehydration, and exhaustion.
Experiments by Frederick Zugibe have revealed that, when suspended with arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical, test subjects had no difficulty breathing, only rapidly increasing discomfort and pain. This would correspond to the Roman use of crucifixion as a prolonged, agonizing, humiliating death. Zugibe claims that the breaking of the crucified victim's legs to hasten death, mentioned in the Gospel accounts, was done in order to cause severe traumatic shock or death by fat embolism, and only as a coup de grace. Crucifixion on a single pole with no transom, with hands affixed over one's head, would precipitate rapid asphyxiation if no block was provided to stand on, or once the legs were broken.
Archeological evidence for ancient crucifixion
Despite the fact that the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refer to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus (discovered, incidentally, in Jerusalem). It is not surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular crucified criminal a customary burial.
The remains were found accidentally in an ossuary with the crucified man’s name on it, “Yehohanan, the son of Hagakol.” The ossuary contained a heel with a nail driven through its side, indicating that the heels may have been driven through the sides of the tree (one on the left side, one on the right side, and not with both feet together in front). The nail had olive wood on it indicating that he was crucified on a cross made of olivewood or on an olive tree. Since olive trees are not very tall, this would suggest that victims were crucified at eye level. His legs were found broken.
Important references for the ancient practice of crucifixion and an examination of archeological evidence:
Punishment by crucifixion was widely employed in ancient times. It is known to have been used by nations such as those of Assyria, Egypt, Persia, by the Greeks, Carthaginians, Macedonians, and from very early times by the Romans.
It has been thought, too, that crucifixion was also used by the Jews themselves, and that there is an allusion to it (Deut. xxi. 22, 23) as a punishment to be inflicted, though this reference is commonly associated with lynching.
There is evidence that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens around the 7th Century BC. Alexander the Great is reputed to have executed 2000 survivors from his siege of the city of Tyre, as well as the doctor who unsuccessfully treated Alexander's friend Hephaestion.
Some historians have also conjectured Alexander crucified Callisthenes, his official historian and biographer, after Callisthenes objected to the adoption by Alexander of the royal Persian ceremony of adoration.
The earliest recording of a crucifixion was in 519 BC when Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon.
Roman Empire
Romans adopted the custom from Carthage and used it for slaves, rebels, pirates and especially despised enemies and criminals. Therefore crucifixion was considered a most ignominious way to die. Condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion (like feudal nobles from hanging) except for major crimes against the state, such as high treason. The Romans used it after the Third Servile War (the slave rebellion under Spartacus), during the Roman Civil War, and the destruction of Jerusalem.
Josephus tells a story of the Romans crucifying people along the walls of Jerusalem. He also says that the Roman soldiers would amuse themselves by crucifying criminals in different positions. In Roman style crucifixion, the victim took days to die slowly from suffocation—lack of oxygen caused by the victim's blood-supply slowly draining, eventually to a quantity insufficient to supply the required oxygen to vital organs. The dead body was not removed from the cross but was left there for vultures and other birds to consume.
The goal of Roman crucifixion was not just to kill the criminal, but also to mutilate and dishonour the body of the condemned. In ancient tradition, an honourable death required burial; leaving a body on the cross so as to mutilate it and prevent its burial, was a grave dishonour for the person.
Under ancient Roman penal practice, crucifixion was not only a means of execution, but also a means of exhibiting the criminal’s low social status. It was the most dishonourable death imaginable. The elite of Roman society (only about 10% of the population) were almost never subject to corporal punishments; instead, they were fined or exiled. Josephus mentions Jews of high rank who were crucified, but this was to point out that their status had been taken away from them. Control of one’s own body was vital in the ancient world. Capital punishment took away control over one’s own body, thereby implying a loss of status and honour. The Romans often broke the prisoner's legs to hasten death. Burial afterwards was not usually permitted.
A common prelude was scourging, which would cause the victim to lose a large amount of blood, and approach a state of shock. The prisoner then usually had to carry the horizontal beam (patibulum in Latin) to the place of execution, but not necessarily the whole cross. Crucifixion was typically carried out by specialized teams, consisting of a commanding centurion and four soldiers. When it was done in an established place of execution, the vertical beam (stipes) was sometimes permanently embedded in the ground. The victim was usually stripped naked -- the New Testament gospels, dated to around the same time as Josephus, describe soldiers gambling for the robes of Jesus.
The "nails" were tapered iron spikes approximately 5 to 7 in. (13 to 18 cm) long, with a square shaft 3/8 in. (1 cm) across. In some cases, the nails were gathered afterwards and used as healing amulets.
Emperor Constantine, the first Emperor known to receive a Christian baptism, abolished crucifixion in the Roman Empire at the end of his reign.
It was however possible to survive crucifixion, and there are records of people who did.
Islam and Crucifixion
The Holy Book of the Islamic faith, the Qur'an, mentions crucifixion several times. The first is in Surah 7:124, when Pharaoh, from the time of Moses in around 1500-1200 B.C, mentions he will crucify his Chief Wizards. This would make this the first mention of anyone crucifying someone before 519 B.C. That is until we get to Surah 12:41, which mentions Joseph, the twelfth Son of Jacob in the Bible, mentioning that the Pharaoh of the time would crucify one of the prisoners he was in jail with. This is about 400 years before the time of Moses.
Surah 7:120-124
120: And the wizards fell down prostrate,
121: Crying: We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,
122: The Lord of Moses and Aaron.
123: Pharaoh said: Ye believe in Him before I give you leave! Lo! this is the plot that ye have plotted in the city that ye may drive its people hence. But ye shall come to know!
124: Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one.
Surah 12:41
41: O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire.
Japan
Tokugawa Shogunate
Crucifixion was used in Japan before and during the Tokugawa Shogunate. It was called Haritsuke in Japanese. The victim—usually a sentenced criminal—was hoisted upon a T-shaped cross. Then, executioners killed him with spears. The body was left to hang for a time before burial.
In 1597, twenty-six Christians were nailed to crosses at Nagasaki, Japan. Among those executed were Paul Miki and Pedro Bautista, a Spanish Franciscan who had worked about ten years in the Philippines.
Modern death on the cross
A fellow editor requested that someone provide references or some sources for the information in this section.
Allegedly, the method was used even in the twentieth century.
Execution by crucifixion, while rare in recent times, was used at Dachau during the Holocaust and in a number of wars, such as in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge and during the Sino-Japanese war, where it was among the many methods of torture and execution used by Japanese soldiers against Chinese civilians—largely in emulation of medieval Japanese military practices.
During World War I, there were persistent rumors that German soldiers had crucified an Allied (Canadian) soldier on a tree or barn door with bayonets or combat knives. The event was initially reported in 1915 by Private George Barrie of the Canadian First Division
There are persistent stories that crucifixions continue to occur in certain parts of Africa, particularly in Sudan. According to reports, hundreds if not thousands of Christian Sudanese have been nailed to crude crosses on the plains, in remote areas where access by reporters and Western witnesses is limited. Al Jazeera reported in 2002 of the crucifixion of 32 Christian priests and other males, some as young as their early teens. They were allegedly whipped severely and affixed to crosses with six-inch nails through their hands, ankles, and genitals.
Modern crucifixions without death
Crucifixion as a devotional practice
Since at least the mid-1800s, a group of Catholic flagellants in New Mexico called Hermanos de Luz ("Brothers of Light") have annually conducted reenactments of Jesus Christ's crucifixion during Holy Week, where a penitent is tied--but not nailed—to a cross. Some very devout Catholics are voluntarily, non-lethally crucified for a limited time on Good Friday, to imitate the suffering of Jesus Christ. A notable example is the ceremonial re-enactment that has been performed yearly in the town of Iztapalapa, on the outskirts of Mexico City, since 1833.
Devotional crucifixions are also common in the Philippines, even driving nails through the hands (e.g. a man vowed to do it 15 times after a difficult childbirth). In San Pedro Cutad, devotee Ruben Enaje has been crucified 20 times, as of 2006, during Passion Week celebrations.
In many cases the person portraying Jesus is previously subjected to flagellation (e.g. flailing) and/or wears a crown of thorns. Sometimes there is a whole passion play, sometimes only the mortification of the flesh.
Parody
In a more jocular context, the victim of a prank (such as a bridegroom in 'macho' circles where he is traditionally abused at the end of his stag night) or of hazing may be bound to a cross as a variation of treeing.
Crucifixion was also parodied in The Life of Brian.
Famous crucifixions
A fellow editor requested that someone provide references or some sources for the information in this section.
Jesus of Nazareth: The most well known victim of crucifixion in history, Jesus was condemned to crucifixion (circa 33 A.D.) by Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, at the instigation of the Jewish leaders who were scandalized by his claim to being the Messiah and his disdain for their religious traditions.
Spartacus' revolt: Spartacus himself most likely died in battle, but approximately 6,000 of his followers were crucified along the 200 km road between Capua and Rome circa 71 BC, as a warning to any other would-be rebels.
Saint Peter, Christian apostle: according to tradition, Peter was crucified upside down at his own request, as he did not feel worthy to die the same way as Jesus (for he had denied him three times previously). Note that upside-down crucifixion would not result in death from asphyxiation.
Saint Andrew, Christian apostle: according to tradition, crucified on an X-shaped cross, hence the name St. Andrew's Cross
Archbishop Joachim of Nizhny Novgorod: crucified upside down, on the Royal Doors of the Cathedral in Sevastopol, Ukrainian SSR in 1920
------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-

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TINK
Knowflake

Posts: 2779
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003

posted May 02, 2006 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TINK     Edit/Delete Message
How have you been fayte?

I became interested in the history of crucifixion a while back. My mind is sadly of an historical bent so sometimes I just can't help myself. Anyway, I eventually came to the conclusion - and mind you this is only my conclusion - that I was missing the point. I didn't mean to imply that the Romans crucified Jesus, or anyone else for that matter, with any symbolic or mystical intent. That is apart from the mundane political symbolism, but all nations have some form of ultimate degradation such as our electric chair and so forth. Although, it occurs to me that if a Roman witness to the act was also a practicing Mithras follower, perhaps he might have recognized the ancient symbolism playing out before him.

Rather, I am interested in the alchemy of the death itself. It is easy to say, "Such a cruel death, what could the point of it be? Surely the Almighty would not ask this of anyone." I've been tempted to think the same. In our modern humanistic society, the time honored equation of wisdom from pain and sacrifice is all but dismissed entirely. There are so few Odins willing to climb the Yggdrasil.

The Crucifixion, I might suggest, was, like the Yggdrasil, only a means to an end.

Always good talking to you, fayte.

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silverstone
Knowflake

Posts: 284
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted May 03, 2006 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverstone     Edit/Delete Message
where in the hell were you, Fayte...? How are those books going.... I know you are going to think I am a head case I have some info for you to tear apart...coming soon!

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~*Silverstone~*

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silverstone
Knowflake

Posts: 284
From:
Registered: Mar 2006

posted May 04, 2006 01:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverstone     Edit/Delete Message
Hey... this is a stupid question... how do we post actual picture here... not smilies I know you copy and than paste the smilies: :asleep etc... but what about a picture from coying from the net, for example; is there a certain code you must place before and after?

Cheers,


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~*Silverstone~*

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fayte.m
Knowflake

Posts: 4102
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
Registered: Mar 2005

posted May 04, 2006 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
Hello TINK
Yes! I always enjoy talking with you too!
Hello silverstone
Yeah, I have been VERY busy.
Just pop in from time to time here at LL.
Still here. Just busy.

------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-

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fayte.m
Knowflake

Posts: 4102
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
Registered: Mar 2005

posted May 04, 2006 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
[img] before the picture code and then [/img] after the picture code.

I am not sure how to post non jpg or non gifs though.


------------------
~I intend to continue learning forever~"Fayte"
~I am still learning~ Michangelo
The Door to Gnosis is never permanently locked...one only needs the correct keys and passwords.
The pious man with closed eyes can often hold more ego than a proud man with open eyes.
Out of the mouth of babes commeth wisdom that can rival that of sages.
In the rough, or cut and polished..a diamond is still a precious gem.
-NEXUS-

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