posted April 25, 2003 05:46 AM           

Stealing $1 from each of one million people

or

Stealing one million dollars from one person.

Disclaimer: I do not intend to steal anything from anyone. These are just the type of things that occur to me when I've had too much coffee and can't sleep (like my penny/2cents thread in free-for-all)

However, the funny disclaimer notwithstanding, I do mean this as a serious question. I couldn't decide which would end up worse.

It actually came up because I was brooding about a co-worker of mine who drags a black cloud with her wherever she goes. She is mean and nasty and rotten to everyone even when they are doing her favors. The days she is out of the office we all breathe easier and get along better, etc. And, (yes I know this is a horrible thought) I thought, why doesn't she just murder someone and get it over with. The karma has to be less for killing one person than being despicable to hundreds. I just converted the question to money because that is something we can quantify. (Because we all know that no number of rude comments or even physical attacks can equal the taking of a life).

posted April 25, 2003 12:53 PM           

I don't think you can easily compare one action to another with karma.
Every action brings with it its own consequenses. If you steal a dollar from a rich man he probably wouldnt even notice.
Steal from a poor man and you may adversly affect him.If you were aware of the differences between the 2 men before stealing I would think the karma would also be different.
How about this.
If you killed an Evil person who has murdered before and will again, would you create negative karma?
By killing him you have saved the lives of many others. But you killed one who has no ties to you.
Are we obligated to accept ones choice to be Evil?

Shammrock about your coworker, has anyone ever asked her Why she is so miserable?

Exit

posted April 25, 2003 08:39 PM           

I don't know for all cases, but in her case, she will never realize it because just to keep her crazy carrying on to a minimum, we all walk on egg shells around her. Nothing is ever right. If you say "good morning" either you didn't say it right (you had an "attitude") or you've disturbed her. So, the next morning you don't say "good morning" and she gets in your face wanting to know "what exactly is your problem that you are so g*dd*mn rude. Can't you even say good morning?" If you remind her of yesterday morning YOU are the crazy one because "that never happened".

It's really kind of frightening. Actually, I think it might be one of the causes of my migranes (I'm a Pisces and I just soak it all in whether I want to or not -- and it really is amazing the difference in the vibe in the room when she is not there).

(Actually the MOST frightening thing is that she's not the only one in my company like that. There are several. And the ones that aren't quite THAT nuts have enough faces to make a multi-headed hydra jealous

OK. Enough of that now. Sorry to have bored you with Shammy's Soap Opera "As the Stomach Turns"

posted April 25, 2003 09:13 PM           

quote:

---

If you killed an Evil person who has murdered before and will again, would you create negative karma?

---

Interesting. Very interesting.....

Kebbie, see, I'm not so sure about that. I started to think about it this way (and, I'm sure this could be wrong - I could be using totally false logic here)...

If someone were to go into my purse or hack my bank account and take a dollar or a few dollars, I might not even notice. And, even if I did it wouldn't bother me too much since I probably would have given it to them if they asked me, anyway. **They're not really "hurting" me. I'm not upset. Probably miffed at the way they went about it, but whatever. They did do a bad, though. I'm thinking Karmic slap on the wrist.

However, if they take, say one or a couple hundred dollars. That would hurt me. I would be upset. I might not make the rent or the car payment. Maybe I wouldn't be able to buy groceries so that I could pay the other bills. **They've done "damage" to me. I'm upset. My bills are late. Maybe I got evicted or my car reposessed. Which is embarassing, which would make me more upset. I'm thinking big time karmic get backsies. (provided, of course, that I let karma do it's job and I just don't go out and strangle the jerk )

See?

So I understand the whole "stealing is stealing" logic. And it is a fair logic. A dollar is a dollar whether it's me or the homeless guy on the corner or Bill Gates.

On the other hand -- did you ever take home pens or paper from work. Even not "intending" to. Ever take extra napkins or ketchup packets from the fast food place to keep in your drawer at work. Or extra sugar packs from the coffee station? (I know I'm definately going down on the pen and paper and napkins rap ). If stealing is stealing. You and the guy who hacked the couple of hundred dollars out of my account are to suffer the same fate.

I can't dig that. I'm thinking karma definately takes into account the effect your actions had on the victim.

On the other hand. Stealing is stealing. And, if everyone in the company walked out with a couple of steno pads and a couple of pens or pencils, the company would be bankrupt from it's supplies cost ....

posted April 26, 2003 06:10 AM           

If you steal, you steal, doesn't matter who from. If you killed, you committed violence against another, doesn't matter who this person is. I think the circumstances are taken into account, for example, if you kill in self-defense or kill to save another person, but you still did the killing and you must pay for that because violence against another is never acceptable, no matter how horrible this person is and how many lives YOU THINK you saved.

posted April 26, 2003 11:40 AM         

So, I dunno if there are ANY definitive answers...it seems to me they are sometimes individual. And just when you think you know how to play, the rules change, or you change the way you look at the game!

If you could get in a time machine, and go back and kill Saddam Hussein, or Hitler, would you do it? Possibly creating a difficult balance for yourself--saving millions of people agony, but causing the death of another. That's really a rhetorical question, just for pondering purposes.

Please, I am NOT bashing Christians here, nor would I bash any belief system...I just want to illustrate a point.

Fundatmental to Christianity are the Ten Commandments, one of which plainly states "Thou Shalt Not Kill." But hey, we love killin', whether in movies or in war. How can anyone reconcile war, with Thou Shalt Not Kill? Doesn't that turn it into a _suggestion_, rather than a commandment? Sure, you can argue 'the greater good,' but it still breaks the commandment.

That's only meant as food for thought, please, my intention is not to antagonize anyone.

But shamrock has brought up something many of us contemplate from time to time, and it's important sometimes to look at all the aspects. Ever read _Stranger in a Strange Land_? One of my favorite novels years ago...it made such a good point of looking at all sides of things, rarely are there only two.

And...triple Aries with sun in the 9th, I'm a born devil's advocate, LOL!!

Oh..sorry to make this soooo long! But my office has terminally miserable people too, including the head of the company! The woman is a multi-millionare, who picks out expensive Xmas presents she expects us to chip in and buy..and has a fit if we don't.Oh, I could tell you stories...but I'll spare you!

posted April 26, 2003 11:45 AM           

What about Juniperbs "for the good of all"
Performing a negative act knowing it's negative but also knowing the consequenses of that act are going to be positive.
The act is still negative, but can it be less negative?
stealing is stealing, killing is killing is easy to say, but I don't think our world is that two sided.

I have some more thoughts but I have to save them for another time.
Keep this thread going guys it's fun to hear others opinions. Even when we disagree it makes us think, makes us learn.

Exit

posted April 28, 2003 11:44 AM         

If God/Goddess/god made everything (and I believe she did), then that means EVERYTHING.
Positive, negative, good, bad, pretty, ugly--they are all just judgements on our part...just a piece of a part of a whole.

For the good of others? I really want your pen. I'll die if you don't give me your pen. You love your pen? Your long lost love gave you the pen? It has high sentimental value to you? I don't care, I'll die with out your pen. It would be for my good if you gave it to me.

I want you to love me, be my friend. My name is Saddam Hussein. I killed your husband and your brother? No matter, I need your love. It would be for the good, for you to love me, would it not?

posted April 28, 2003 07:31 PM         

I'll keep thinking!

posted April 28, 2003 10:15 PM           

And killing for the good of all is also WRONG! None of us have any right to kill someone.....unless in self-defense. To even put those kinds of thoughts out into the Universe is BAD!!! Remember, whatever you send out into the Universe comes back to you 3x3x3......words and thoughts are powerful..

posted April 29, 2003 10:48 AM         

...let's say linear time exists, as does linear reincarnation, just for the sake of our "little brains'" comprehension.

...so then let's say my higher self is sitting around on a cloud, talking to your higher self...and I say, hey, ya know, life on planet Earth is fun sometimes, but I haven't had enough experiences to be a really well-rounded higher self. Since all things are equal here, since life after life is a totally groovy place to be, and since nothing ever really dies, it just becomes something else, why don't you and I go back and have some horrific experiences? In need to experience violent death, maybe you could be the pilot of a plane that goes down, and I'll die that way? And then you say, well, I need to experience violence first hand, how about I find another way for us to share this? Maybe take your life in a more personal way? And then we agree, and also agree that our newly incarnated selves might find a more peaceful way to end whatever squabbles might lead us to violence on earth...

OK, I may be full of sh*t here, but once my mind starts to spiral, I can't stop it!
Food for thought, and I would love to hear other people spiraling on these subjects! I'm not saying my way of spiraling/thinking is right, or wrong...it's just another piece of a part of a whole...( a concept from _The Tao of Physics_).