posted June 26, 2003 01:55 AM         

the corner store by my house does some illegal things. its bothered me for awhile. they get illegal cigarettes and sell them, evading taxes. i have also seen some strange things... one time, i was behind a man who walked up to the counter and gave the store owner a 10 dollar bill. the owner reached under the counter and gave him what looked like a glass tube. i dont think that it was drugs, the owner always has his whole family in the store, a young son and a teen daughter. he seems to be very much a family man. however, there *was* something fishy about the transaction. i believe it might have been a glass vial for the man to make a pipe. (i live in a rough neighbourhood, talk about fish out of water i have called the police numerous times this year).

i also *think* he sold cigarettes to a minor, although i cant be positive. he didnt ask for id (the person looked very young) but they were comfortable with each other, so i know the person must have bought things at the store before (perhaps he had seen id previously?). there is a 2000$ fine for selling them to a minor. if the person looks 25 or younger, you must ask for id.

right now, i am in a financial bind. a very major one. i wont go into detail about it, so just trust me when i say it was not of my making, and i dont have the ability that some people do to pull myself up out of it. (i am disabled, its a hidden disability but its there and causes as much trouble). i want to go to college. i cant do it without a little help, i cant even get a grant without some money for transportation. i need to get to these appointments, get doctors letters filled out, a LOT of running around is necessary to facilitate this, and i cant afford it right now. family arent in a position to help right now, apparently.

posted June 26, 2003 03:49 AM         

But about you, and karma... what are your true motives? Do you truly believe that this man's activities are destructive and must be stopped? Do you believe he deserves punishment, and that you have a role to play in it? Do you believe your livelihood is more important than his, given his immoral behaviour?

If you call Crimestoppers, I think it's important that you do it for the right reasons-- the ones you will always be able to live with. You need proof, and facts. The way you write your post, it sounds as if you are struggling with some kind of temptation -- which implies that your conscience is already bothering you -- maybe you could examine that temptation to see how you really feel about it.

posted June 26, 2003 07:05 AM         

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Well, nobody here is in a position to judge _you_, anafaery. We don't walk in your shoes.

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you raise some gooood points. let me answer them

quote:

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But about you, and karma... what are your true motives?

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quote:

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Do you truly believe that this man's activities are destructive and must be stopped?

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quote:

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Do you believe he deserves punishment, and that you have a role to play in it?

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Do you believe your livelihood is more important than his, given his immoral behaviour?

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part of what bothers me is that some people are willing to do EVERYTHING to cheat the system, to 'get' the other guy, and theres no personal accountablity. that bothers me a lot. i have almost nothing, yet i dont cheat people! thats sooooo not fair, because in the end, i, who CANNOT afford it, ends up suffering because of people like him! would it be fair for someone in the neighbourhoods kids to have a place to buy things to use drugs with? or do his kids take priority because daddy drives a jag? argh.

its not temptation... if it was, i would have already done it because believe me, im in a desperate situation and damn the torpedoes.

i probably wouldnt be having this dilemma if there was nothing in it for me, i would just do it. the fact that i could possibly gain something from it muddies the ethical waters for me. ive been observing the goings on there since i moved in here (a year ago) and i am neutral to them as people. i dont have anything against them personally. what they are doing is wrong though, and its been bothering me for some time. every new thing i observe about it bothers me more and more. if i did report them, my conscience would be clear. i am not one for moaning about mistakes ive made forevermore. i learn from them, pick myself up, and i dont repeat them. the thing is, i dont really know if what i am proposing *is* the right thing. i dont trust my judgement about this, simply because there is money i badly need involved. if there were none, i would have done it.

i suppose i could just call an anonymous tip and not collect any award, but why throw that away when it could do so much good, and start me on a path where i dont *have* to live in scary crime ridden places like this? is that so wrong? its just survival... just like anyone else. i would like to think it was a little nobler sort of survival than most of what i see in the world, though. it just seems to me that most people in the world will do anything to get the other guy, to get ahead, out of greed.

posted June 26, 2003 01:46 PM         

If you accept karma as reality, then you must also know that your position in life is your own, you own it, and no one else is responsible for it. We share our lives and intertwine our karma, but this man breaking the law is not relevant to your current troubles. However, you turning him in IS in part relevant to HIS potential troubles...but, he took it upon himself to break the law. Gets messy, doesn't it?

Is breaking the law important? Sometimes. Sometimes laws are unfair and unjust and infringe upon my personal freedoms. I don't believe the government has a right to tell me what I can or can not put into my body...some of the most dangerous drugs in existence (i.e. alcohol) are perfectly legal.

There are no absolutes in life. This is a decision only you can make. And I suspect that any incurred karma will rely completely on what you feel most RIGHT about. If you feel you are acting out of the highest good, that's great...but you know what? If our karma dictates our future...you may or may not receive smooth sailing ahead. You may or may not reap karmic rewards...not all karma is instant.

Remember the old saying? "No good deed goes unpunished." In every cliche' lies a bit of truth, that's how they become cliches.

In any event, you have chosen an important dilemma for yourself. Personally, if I were in your neighborhood, and saw the same things, I might be tempted to do the same as you and turn the guy in...but it's only conjecture, I'm not in your shoes. Only you can make the decision.

I wish you the best, and I wish for you wisdom and guidance.

posted June 26, 2003 03:20 PM         

Here is my two cents ...

Unless I am living a life completely free of sin, meaning I live up to every standard of "purity" that has been written in ANY of the holy texts, than I have no right to judge right and wrong in anyone else. I believe that the shop owner is creating his own karma that will be dealt with without your intervention.

Now, if that shop owner was a direct threat to me ... yes, I feel it would be my responsibility to intervene. I know that in my neighborhood, sometimes keeping quiet and letting the police handle things in their own time is the "safest" thing to do. Sometimes you have to take into account the "unspoken" rules of the neighborhood, particularly neighborhoods where there is a heavy presence of gang activity.

Personally I think if we were all living free of sin then we would have become "like Jesus" and there would be no reason for Karma to exist.

By the way, I speak from an objective perspective ... I do not associate with any particular religon.

Do I make any sense?

IMHO,

posted June 26, 2003 07:30 PM         

trillian, you made some awesome points. THANK YOU! i have a feeling the questions are rhetorical, so i wont go into my answers, but you have given me some good fodder for thought. his actions *do* impact me personally though... the good law abiding persons in this area cant stand his store. he contributes to the drug problem around here, and this is an area where there are a LOT of vulnerable people, seniors and disabled people (because the rent is low). unfortunately, we also get a lot of drug trade people here, because of the low rents. we are too used to calling the police and them never doing anything. this neighbourhood is awful

i agree with you too, that some laws infringe on personal liberty, and that isnt right... if i wasnt so socialistic id be a libertarian- maybe i will just combine the two

heidi, you are a woman after my own heart. i can totally relate, and i am very much a 'let the police take care of these things' kind of person. i try to be as inconspicuous as i can.

as far as me being sinless, well... my only sin is sometimes my feelings get hurt, and i criticise people when i feel left out. its a virgo venus aries moon thing. i dont hurt a soul, on purpose anyway. i dont do ANYTHING that could be construed as a 'sin against a person'. if we are talking about a specific religion, i might be a sinner, as i brought some things to a pawn shop when i was broke, and am trying to get them back, isnt it a 'sin' to have anything to do with moneylenders? i dont know. all i know is that i dont hurt anyone, unless its in error. thats why i didnt want to get the dad in trouble, because it would affect his kids. but what about the kids who buy things to use drugs at his store?

its a tangley mess. i only want whats best for everyone in the world... and what that man is doing is very wrong. whether its up to me or not to blow the proverbial whistle, i dont know. perhaps its bad of me to wait until someone else reports him, because thats like passing the buck, which i cant see as being a good thing, if i know what hes doing is wrong, then why put the responsibility on someone else??? thats hardly honorable.

i just dont know, but this is great because im still thinking... i want to do whatever i do knowing that i did the right thing.

its all relative too. you can look at it a thousand different ways. it could be a karmically given opportunity, if i look at it that way! i really dont know.

posted June 27, 2003 07:49 AM         

I don't have all the answers, just my opinions...

...and some more cliches for thought...

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Instant Karma's gonna get you, so you better get yourself together, darlin'.

Big Brother is watching.

Live and let live.

Live and let die.

You can't be a beacon if your light don't shine.

Peace be with you.

I am you as you are me and we are all together. (Yeah, I'm a Beatles fan!)

And we all shine on...like the moon and the stars and the sun....

posted June 27, 2003 08:30 AM         

Do onto others as you would have others do unto you.

I`m bibically inclined this a.m.

You reap what you sow.

As above, so below.

Let he/she who is free from sin cast the first stone.

First harm none...

Love thy neighbor as thys-elf.

You must live with whatever decision you make; make sure it`s one well thought out and you`re completely willing to accept the results. K-now thys-elf first

Good insight knowflakes

posted June 27, 2003 09:01 AM         

What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding?

(yup, Elvis Costello fan too! )

posted June 28, 2003 09:52 PM         

another quote though, from another thread gives me pause (and thank you to tabookey for sharing it, although this thread was not the context) but-

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing."
Edmund Burke, with a minor adjustment from me, to include both genders