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Author
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Topic: On the 9th
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dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 08, 2004 09:13 PM
 
To atone for my errors in judgement, these words have been removed. Please accept my apologies. I have no answers. Please look for them elsewhere. Best wishes to you on your path.IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 534
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted April 08, 2004 10:10 PM
Daf,
I have not yet tackled the Quran. Again, you drive me to the next level. I'll report back on chapter 9 within the next few weeks, as I am at present reading 3 works and have obligated myself to completing these first...IP: Logged |
bewitched
Knowflake Posts: 130
From:
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted April 09, 2004 03:41 PM
Very interesting can't wait to here what else you have to say  IP: Logged |
Petron
Knowflake Posts: 212
From:
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted April 10, 2004 05:11 PM
have you ever noticed how closely the book Dune by Frank Herbert mirrors current events in the middle east? the Fremen/Muslims....spice/oil....and many of the spiritual themes seem oddly prescient considering current events.....
Herbert lived there and taught social and ecological sciences for many years, he seems to have foresaw the coming crisis in his "novel"
i recieved my first Koran from a Saudi royal family member back around '79 , and even then he spoke of the way the american government helps perpetuate the social inequality there as it assured a smooth flow of oil.......IP: Logged |
raine6
Knowflake Posts: 277
From: the heartland of america
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted April 11, 2004 03:43 PM
a while back, i tried to read the quran, but could not get past the contradictions between this "loving and compassionate god" who wants to lighten our burden,
"for humanity was created weak" and then proclaims "wrath from their Lord will overtake them"; "travel over the earth and see what became of those who rejected truth as false" truth? it was a total turn-off for me i guess it's no worse than the bible--but how in the world did it get a reputation for being such a peaceful religion? was marx right? IP: Logged |
silverbells
Knowflake Posts: 1376
From: maryland
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted April 11, 2004 05:15 PM
hey daf I would like to email you. Could you give me your email address if you feel comfortable?IP: Logged |
dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 12, 2004 12:29 PM
To atone for my errors in judgment, these words have been removed. Best of wishes to you along your path.
IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 5536
From: www.Heaven.Home
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted April 12, 2004 01:29 PM
pssstt Daf, quote:
First and foremost, the urgency of the message must be taken into consideration. Perhaps we're not looking at a browbeating tactic so much as an attempt to convey the urgency of finding the Path before one's time to do so is gone.
I`ve been lurking, but this brought up a question. Is it your truth that one`s time to become one again with God/dess will expire? My own rewording of course  juniperb  ------------------
If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot IP: Logged |
dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 12, 2004 01:56 PM
To atone for my errors in judgment, these words have been removed. I have no answers. Best of wishes to you along your path.IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 5536
From: www.Heaven.Home
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted April 12, 2004 02:06 PM
Daf, just had to dig a little deeper is all . If I was in expectation, thats the answer I expected  and concur with. juniperb ------------------
If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 534
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted April 14, 2004 12:46 AM
The 9th is indeed a troubling chapter, encouraging "believers" to wage war on all "infidels", yet at the same time referring to God as compassionate and forgiving. It is compassion offered with the condition of conversion only. If the nonbelievers refuse to accept God as truth, the Koran calls for absolute annihilation. If they convert, all is "forgiven". The verbage is in no way open to interpretation or ambiguous. There is no "turning the other cheek". Quite the contrary, one is obligated to "kill"
and lie in wait to "ambush" the enemy (the enemy being all those who do not embrace Islam). The next time I post, I will quote directly from the text. I happened to have transcribed a few passages of contention from this particular chapter and much to my frustration, have misplaced my notes. It is a dangerous way. Understand that we are dealing with a people who "take no prisoners". Kill or be killed. Yet their God is compassionate and merciful. Somehow, given all of this said mercy and compassion, the idea that one must "fear God, the fires of hell, etc.,etc. " is a point that is repeatedly driven home throughout the text of the "holy" book. Wholely profane, perhaps. No other major religion openly encourages and even requires that it's followers obliterate those who choose not to embrace it. Jews and Christians alike are openly referred to as sinners in the text. I've also noticed that throughout the book, certain advice is given as to how one should aim to live one's life, followed by the convenient disclaimer however that "man is weak" and cannot necessarily be held to such aims. It all reeks to me. There is the way of Islam or the way of death. The very belief system is terroristic in nature. Those that believe in the Koran would slice my throat and die happy it would seem. Therefore I find it difficult to cut these people any slack in my heart. If I were of Krishnamurti's persuasion, I would gladly be shot, stabbed, etc. without a fight. But I am still attached to this life and would probably not expire without a fight. I have not decided whether or not this is right or wrong in my own eyes but that is another topic of discussion altogether. IP: Logged |
raine6
Knowflake Posts: 277
From: the heartland of america
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted April 14, 2004 01:14 AM
quiksilver--i have been reading thich nhat hanh's OLD PATH WHITE CLOUDS--and emulating the buddha would seem to be the way out of all of the monotheistic, hell-fire religious
contention: "we'll teach you submission to a loving, merciful and compassionate god if we have to cram it down your throat and kill you to do it" the crusades must have been something, eh? i think we are reliving thembut for those of you who have outgrown the patriarchal unbalance within christianity and judaism, note the names of the two women aboard the space shuttle: JUDith and CHRISTa. the symbolism behind that, as well as how mount st helens fulfils jeremiah 51:25 about the destroying mountain is riveting, as you read margaret starbird's THE GODDESS IN THE GOSPELS IP: Logged |
quiksilver
Moderator Posts: 534
From: new jersey, usa
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted April 14, 2004 11:43 PM
Hello, Raine...I've read some of T.H. Hahn's works. "Living Buddha, Living Christ" appeals to me especially. It is good to hear that others have also found meaning and value in what he has written. I personally find that the Buddhist philosophy has been instrumental in raising my awareness on several levels. Nevertheless, I still tend to shy away from any formulaic ideology, as I feel that all fall short in some sense. Some obviously much more so than others. Anyway, to cite just a few gems of Chapter 9 wisdom (note sardonic tone here): 1) "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, beseige them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush; but if they convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful." 2) "Make war on nonbelievers. By your hands, will God chastise them and will put them to shame, and will give you victory over them, and will heal the bosoms of a people who believe." 3) "The Jews say, Ezra is a son of God, and the Christians say, the Messiah is a son of God. Such the saying in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them! How they are misguided. I think I will stop here. The picture has been painted clearly enough. What I want to know is: Are there any Muslims out there on this site perchance? If so, please, I invite you to justify such a way of thinking. I am genuinely eager to know. I am willing to discuss in a civil manner as any, should you choose to respond. Well, that is all for now. I will continue to read through the text.... IP: Logged |
dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 15, 2004 02:48 PM
To atone for my errors in judgment, these words have been removed. I have no answers. Please look for them elsewhere. Best wishes to you on your Path.IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 1090
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted April 15, 2004 07:04 PM
 dafThe only thing I would say is this - we are players in the game too. It is not only done TO us, it is done BY us. Fate is a beautiful dance between the Creator and creation. It takes two to tango, yes? There are countless possibilities for "what will be". And I think we play a part in what eventually does happen. To sit back and allow things to just play out is akin to allowing the hypothetical rapist/murderer to gain entrance to your home and family. Maim him, yes. Kill him , no. I do have complete faith that we will reach the mountain top, but how long it will take and by which path largely depends on us. Lastly, I would say that evil does exist and must be fought. I do NOT mean physical violence. I've always thought of Jihad as a personal war. I think the concept has been sadly misunderstood and misinterpreted. The demons are within. Well, most of them. Daf, you always make me think  tink IP: Logged |
sesame
Moderator Posts: 452
From: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Registered: Nov 2003
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posted April 15, 2004 09:33 PM
Much of structured religion is based on our interpretations. I have a friend who adds to this site: http://www.free-minds.org/quran/quran.htm which is an interpretation in progress. This link takes you to chapter nine, which a quick search for chr comes up with:30. The Jews said: “Uzair is God’s son,” and the Nazarenes said: “The Messiah is God’s son.” Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth! I find this abominable, to claim to know the working of God. Dean. ------------------
Imagination is more important than memory! My numerology program based on "Star Signs" by Linda Goodman
Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!) IP: Logged |
dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 19, 2004 12:09 PM
These words have been removed in order to atone for grievious errors in judgment on my part. Please accept my apologies. I have no answers. Best wishes to you.IP: Logged |
TINK
Knowflake Posts: 1090
From: New England
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted April 19, 2004 07:56 PM
You know daf I've reread this and I believe I'm guilty of nitpicking. Maybe it's the terminology. Who's the director? Who's the screenwriter? producer? actor? Don't the best actor's ad-lib anyway? Are the creator and I dancing together, making it up as we go? Or am I dancing solo and he's calling out the steps? Argh.  Anyway, I think we basically agree so forget what I said. I saw the Dune movie so many years ago. C'mon, Sting looked kinda good, no? Anyway, I remember saying, "there is a worthwhile story undernealth this poorly executed movie. I must investigate further." Of course one book leads to another and I never did get around to reading it. I think I'll put it on my ever-expanding list. quicksilver ~ I read "Living Buddha, Living Christ" last year. Loved it. Loved it. Loved it! When I was a child I would entertain myself with the thought of The Buddha and Jesus meeeting in a garden somewhere after all the trials and tribulations were over with. Laughing and talking and sharing their stories. Enjoying the peace and comfort you feel when you finally find someone who really understands. For whatever reason, that image made me feel deep down happy. Reading the book brought those memories back. Buddhism and Christianity both seem to me to complement each other perfectly. Oh my, I've dragged us utterly off subject. Back to the Quran. A most worthy topic. tink IP: Logged |
Meili Zhiwei
Knowflake Posts: 235
From:
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted April 25, 2004 06:45 PM
*Deleted*IP: Logged |
dafremen
Knowflake Posts: 1024
From:
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted April 27, 2004 03:10 PM
I have no answers. These words have been removed in order to atone for my presumptuousness. Best wishes to you all.IP: Logged |
Lindaland
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