posted April 21, 2004 04:52 AM         

You need to get a copy of Rudolf Steiners 'Occult Science', it will explain alot of what you're thinking about. Also books about Edgar Cayce on Reincarnation will also help.

Karma isn't just about physical acts but also mental, spiritual and the environment/nation we are born into.

I don't kill anything now, unless I have to. I'm trying Rudolf Steiners ways of keeping unwanted plant and insect pests away from where I live. But this will take another 3 yrs to accomplish. I used to fish and hunt rabbits, but not now. Everything has it's place in the scheme of things. What I am trying involves the ground around where I live becoming incompatible with what I don't want, but since my neighbours don't know it they will still have them on their property.

posted April 21, 2004 05:07 PM         

you have made some good points...killing things is not my style, although i have no remorse about swatting those pesky bush flies and mosquitoes

after reading about the buddha, it makes you tread a little more carefully across the land

he taught that we have been plants and animals and even rocks and wind in a form of collective energy at some point in our evolution. but i do not recall whether he said we could go "back" into animal form

joseph smith taught that transmigration was a "doctrine of devils"

posted April 22, 2004 09:47 AM         

quote:

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joseph smith taught that transmigration was a "doctrine of devils"

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I was on drugs when that happened though.. and I wouldn't be surprised if he ate some mushrooms he saw while there... or licked some toads?

posted April 22, 2004 12:10 PM         

There is a cause and effect principle. It results from the Creation's tendency to seek stasis, or balance.

Love,

posted April 22, 2004 06:52 PM         

I also think that maybe if you led a really hard life/lives, you possibly get to come back as that utterly spoiled rotten pet that is loved to death. Sleep all day, chew bones, run free in the sunshine, lots of love, etc...

posted April 22, 2004 07:09 PM         

if we are all here to learn and gain experience, what would be wrong with being "punished" for animal cruelty, just to "learn" how it feels?

didn't we all learn that somewhere along the line? maybe some of us just haven't learned that lesson yet, and that seems to be a good way to have in ingrained that you do not abuse animals--just suffer as an abused animal...

buddha did teach that we were animal/plant other life forms at one point, but is it retroactive? was he wrong then? who is to say? it seems all good, but just in case, i think i'm going to go and pamper my cats

posted April 22, 2004 08:54 PM         

As for what we each do or do not believe about the interchangeability of beings through individual lifetimes, you are Isis, of course, free to BELIEVE as you see fit.

posted April 22, 2004 10:11 PM         

Someone who slaughtered animals would not come back as an animal who is slaughtered; he would come back doing some great service for animals and their welfare.

It is wrong to kill animals for food and products. Anyone who doesn't agree, why don't you go visit a slaughterhouse?

posted April 23, 2004 12:15 AM         

Why do animals have souls, but houseplants don't? Even though they've demonstrated that plants do react to things - perhaps its on such a level that we can't hope to percieve it (and what is perception after all anyway)? Which would theoretically mean that all artichokes have life as much as a rock cod does. And we eat the reproductive organs of plants, so isn't that as bad as eating an egg, or a lamb? So following that line of thinking, eating anything at all is killing. But to hell with those artichokes, they're not cute and cuddly...I mean no offense, just trying to make a point. I grew up in Nebraska, I'm well acquainted with how the cattle industry works.

Variety is the spice of life. If we all believed the same things, the world would be a very boring place IMO.

posted April 23, 2004 03:00 AM         

What the three first groups lack as individual attributes they make up for with collective attributes, ie, animals have a collect spirit for that species, etc.

I've always found his arguments to be quite logical and reasonable, so I've accepted a lot of what he says after I've pondered them for a while.
The soul aspect is the one that retains experiences, memories, and karma in the form of pain and pleasure. It is the emotional aspect. The reason that killing animals is "sinful" (according to this theory) is that they have a soul and thus have their own particular karma to work out; when you kill them, you rob them of their opportunities like you would a human. The mind is more of a reservoir of knowledge without emotional attachments that also functions as a "sword", etc.

I also don't believe in transmigration because I think creation is set up in a kind of hierarchy ... minerals being the simplest lifeforms while humans are the most complex. Once you achieve a certain level of complexity, the lessons you learn belong to that level. For instance, an example that Linda made, when you go through school you move up through particular grades. If you fail a grade, you don't get knocked down into one below, but instead have to repeat that same grade until you do pass it. (I'm obviously not quoting her there, but that was her general idea.)

That's just what I believe anyway.

posted April 23, 2004 12:31 PM         

daf

posted April 23, 2004 03:05 PM         

I've never read Steiner, so I'm not familiar w/ that, nor do I neccesarily believe that my houseplants or artichokes have a soul, I was just throwing that out there for consideration.

Personally I believe that soul and life force are two different things; one has an identity (soul), the other is the force that imbues it with physical life. But that's just my take on it.

posted April 23, 2004 04:44 PM         

Carnation, I certainly think that there are reasons behind the enjoyment and suffering, and all the other oppositions, that people experience in their lives. I do think there is a cause and effect to everything. I also think that the way you respond to a situation is very important ... in other words, you may be presented with a situation that you see as negative and cannot alter but it is entirely up to you how you react to it. Non-resistance, I guess, and forgiveness are my favorite "karma cleansers" for the negative things that I've brought upon myself to learn lessons from. And, with the positive things, I also think it's important to not let it go to your head and be grateful for your blessings, etc. Perspective is tricky sometimes.

posted April 23, 2004 05:18 PM         

I agree with the thought that people have an individual soul and animals come from a soul group.

posted April 23, 2004 05:18 PM         

Love,

daf

posted April 24, 2004 12:20 PM         

Steiner is definitly worth a read, Sir Daf. Dive in. But your right, at the end of day everything is up for grabs except the Almighty. Still, you've gotta stand somewhere and this is where I choose to stand.