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Author Topic:   Who are we? Are we children of light or children of this world?
iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted September 19, 2004 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi,

Two sentences in the bible (new testament) in Jesus's own words has intrigued me and I do not have an answer. I would love to hear your thoughts.

The passages are

Luke (10-9):

"For children of this world are more prudent in dealing with their own generation than are children of light."


and John (8 - 44)

"You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me."


Shocking isn't it. This was taken from the New American Bible.

My question is are there really two masters God and Satan as reffered by master Jesus?

Which one are you serving right now ?

Were we born at the time of conception when sperm met ovum and hence by birth we are Satan's children? Or is it that some of us here on earth has come from God's kingdom and leading a life here as part of his divine plan?

I am anxious to know everyone's opinion. Good or bad, wrong or right does not matter?
Just think for a minute in silence and then answer it?


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juniperb
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posted September 19, 2004 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
iamthat I enjoy your exchanges and insights.

One quick thought on the John quote, is the ego "I". Does it not describe it?

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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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orchidspirit
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posted September 19, 2004 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for orchidspirit     Edit/Delete Message
My thoughts - we are all part of the divine plan

God is the creator of everything. Everything is made according to a particular design.

Juni, do you think we all perhaps have many different little "I's" within us, and as we look within ourselves we have the opportunity to grow and become aware of all these little "I's"?


Love
Orchid xx

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juniperb
Knowflake

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posted September 19, 2004 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
you have me spiraling Orchidspirit.

If we look within "know thyself" and we see the little "I"`s, can we make them our companion to Serve our Design?

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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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juniperb
Knowflake

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posted September 19, 2004 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
iamthat,quoting from The Lamsa Bible, (translated from the Aramaic of the Peshitta & one I personally resonate with for meaning & context)

Luke chapter 10, verse 9 reads And Heal those who are sick in it, and say to them The Kingdom of God is come near to you.

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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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juniperb
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posted September 19, 2004 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
John, chapter 8 verse 44 says :

You are from the father of accusation, and you want to do the lusts of your father, he who is a murder of men from the very beginning and who never stands by the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks, he speaks his own lie, because he is a liar, and the father of lies

Does it refer to ego "I"

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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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mike
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posted September 19, 2004 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mike     Edit/Delete Message
in context with the rest of the text he is not saying WE are the children of Satan.

the people said that they only have one father and that is God.
in this passage he explains to them that they are not carrying out Gods work because they are about to stone him.

its luke(16-8) and the version im looking at has slightly difernt wording.

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

i dont know if this makes a great deal of differnce but it may add a new dimension to the topic.

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-------------------------
you kill a man in my name
when all i teach is not to mame. --unknown--

lots of love and friendship.
mike

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted September 19, 2004 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks Juni, for the Armanaic translation of the text. Mike also thanks to you for pointing out, that the context of Luke is in reference to the parable of the 'steward'. Yes in that parable, the steward had squandered his masters money. When the matter was brought to the master's attention he asked him to prepare an account and to leave.

The steward, having realized he cannot work as he was not strong enough, decided to make friends with his master's debtor so he may live in their house. He asked one how much he owed the master. The debtor replied 100 grand ( I am making the storey fit current generation).
The Steware replied ok write a check for $80k (He did not add his commission of $20k)
He did likewise for others.

The master praised the steward for acting prudent.

Explanation (I have add my own to what Jeses had said for better understanding): We have to be like the steward in this story who made friends with the debtors. The debtors are the wordly goods. We are trusted with these goods. We should understand that those goods are not our own but someone else's. When these goods fail you there's an everlasting goods awaiting you. Pay attention to small matters so that you can also be entrusted with greater things.

In the end Jesus says you cannot be slave to both God and Money. You need to love one and despise the other. We all need to choose one?

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iAmThat
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posted September 19, 2004 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
When he says your father is a murderer (does it refer to able and cain). Did the devil incite cain to murder able?

Juni, I don't think the word I used by Jesus refers to ego. Somewhere he says before Abraham was IAm. Means he is the IAm in the story of moses. Means he is none other than God in human flesh.

When Jesus says your father is a murderer, is he referring to incident in the Garden of Eden, and the death brought upon mankind as a result of Adam eating the apple.

Did ego arise when Adam ate the apple? Or did mind was born when he ate that apple and hence we suffer? Is having a mind good thing or bad thing?

The gnostics believe that the serpent was wise and it was part of God's plan that Adam and Eve eat the apple so that they awaken and not be like robots? For the devil wanted that mankind will live in ignorance and worship him and not the living God.

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juniperb
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posted September 19, 2004 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Hi again iamthat,Mike & Orchidspirit,

Since "I do not suffer", I can not answer your question.

I am not a Bibical scholar so I will read with interest the unfolding of this thread


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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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Petron
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posted September 19, 2004 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Petron     Edit/Delete Message
greetingz

yes, luke uses the light allegory often.....

Lu 11:34 The lamp of thy body is thine eye: when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when it is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Lu 11:35 Look therefore whether the light that is in thee be not darkness.
Lu 11:36 If therefore thy whole body be full of light, having no part dark, it shall be wholly full of light, as when the lamp with its bright shining doth give thee light.


and shortly after the lu 16:8 passage Jesus sums up.....

Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Lu 16:14 And the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things; and they scoffed at him


and again in john 8:44 Jesus is addressing the pharisees (roman collaborating jews)

Jesus is many times referred to as Rabbi from the earliest texts, and WAS by all accounts a learned jewish teacher who had great interest in discoursing with the old Rabbi's from an early age


Lu 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast;
Lu 2:45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him.
Lu 2:46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions:
Lu 2:47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

so my questions would be

do you feel comfortable reffering to jesus as "master",since it comes from the aramaic word "rabbi" which comes from the hebrew word "Baal"(master)
and have you ever studied Mandean tradition?......

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iAmThat
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posted September 19, 2004 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message

Hi Petro, Thanks for sharing your thoughts to add to Luke 12: 34

"When your eye is sound (good) your whole body is filled with light but when it is bad, then your body is in darkness."

To answer your other question, no I am not familiar with Mandian tradition.

Is your question about me calling Jesus a master to inquire if I have accepted him as a messiah?

Then yes, thats the reason I converting to christianity this Easter?

I want to be baptised in full knowledge hence this post?

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Petron
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posted September 19, 2004 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Petron     Edit/Delete Message
well in that case for you, alot would depend on what you are converting from and to....(there are many variations on judeo christian islamacism)
it seems to me jesus was saying NOT to be like the "jewish masters"

Mt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

and here Paul continues the idea that greed, the love of money, is the root of all evil, which is hard to argue against...

1ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

your question was "are there really two masters God and Satan as reffered by master Jesus?"

i dont think Jesus implied that Satan had the power to create souls, only to lead them astray,

and following with the question "Which one are you serving right now ?" leads me to believe youve already made up your mind......

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iAmThat
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posted September 19, 2004 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Petron,

I had no religion. I want to go thru one ritual process, and experience for myself. Also isn't it nice to believe in something to bring stability to a wandering mind. The mind drifts anywhere and anytime and I decided to rest it by believing in something which brings peace to my heart. Hence the process of conversion. Its a one year process and I am half way thru.

BTW:

I was reading Jesus saying in Matthew 23:9 "Don't call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven."


And in John he actually says devil is your father. Isn't this a contradiction ? Or may be he is being sarcastic? I wonder if buddha also had the trait of being sarcastic sometimes?


Another funny thing is my local priests are also referred as Father. This is so against the Jesus's teachings.


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orchidspirit
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posted September 22, 2004 07:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for orchidspirit     Edit/Delete Message
iAmThat

I have another short story for you which may help. It certainly helped me to understand who is my father and who is not

Noah was building the ark, having been told that the flood was comming... : He petitioned God to save his family from the disaster. God granted his petition and promised that his family would be saved. Now, Noah had a son, a typical rebellious son who refused to believe the prophacy. He taunted his father and, when the rains began, he refused to enter the ark. After the flood where all perished save Noah and his companions, Noah questioned God...after all if you cannot trust God who can you trust eh? God replied... "I did not betray the promise I made to you"..."Those who are LIKE you ARE your family, and those I have indeed saved".

Love Orchid xx

PS let me know what you think

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juniperb
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posted September 22, 2004 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Orchid, I think it is a gift of insight Thank you!

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If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted September 22, 2004 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Orchidspirit,
Thanks for your kind thoughts. Was wondering, the story you mention is not detailed in the Genesis.


Since I started this topic and got no responses. Heres what I have come up with based on my own simple experience and observances so far :


The Father that Jesus was referring to is the most holy, the formless, the one we all call as God. Or Great Intellect.

And that there is only one intellect. Can some one on this earth have 2 father. No only one. Also the earthly father is only a boiological one.

Jesus also adds further in Luke that there is only one Rabbi (teacher) and that is him.

I think below God(the great intellect) is the Creator of this Cosmos. So I still wonder why he chose to call himself Rabbi.
I wonder why he didn't say he is the Creator.

Ok so now we starting from highest, we have

A God and then Creator.

The creator is in everything observable. Everything you observe from an atom to an animal to human's body has at a very small level a blueprint of great intelligence that creates a unity between all of them.
The unobservable is the God. HE is the real engine behind the creator. Also note he is not limited by the creator. The unobservable does not interfere in day to day job of the cosmos. Yet he gets feedback from creator.

OK the creator has created us humans (ofcourse after he created the cosmos and other things). How did he create humans.
He created him as follows:

1. Created senses for him (touch, hear, taste, see and smell)

2. Created mind

3. Created intellect in a man

4. Gave him the breadth of life (or Soul)

He also gave to each man a spirit or should I say higher self. This higher self is in communcation with the soul. When we medidate and know ourselves, the communication between the soul and spirit is clear.

The spirit (or higher self) also communicates with the creator. When you request a miracle, the spirit petitions to the creator. The creator accepts or denies it.


The inner voice we hear in our journey of life is actually that of the spirit (our higher self).


Well what I wrote is version one. I didn't review it. It does take time, to review which I really don't seem to have these days. But isn't some food for thought better than nothing. You decide.

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Meili Zhiwei
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posted September 27, 2004 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Meili Zhiwei     Edit/Delete Message
*Deleted*

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FishKitten
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posted October 02, 2004 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
We are both...light and matter...but always we are an emmination of the original thought and word of god, so thus we have the choice of whether we let light or matter have control of the moment.

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merciful1
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posted October 02, 2004 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for merciful1     Edit/Delete Message
I think children of the light are not going to be understood by those who are minding their own generation "prudently". Its the difference between...the values that are more widely accepted...that people feel pressured to cowtow to...and finding your own way...which might not make sense to others.
Are you familiar with the book "Jonathan Livingston Seagull"?
I love Richard Bach's "The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" too--guess that's the subtitle, actually.
But it takes courage to cut loose from the crowd and the herd instinct to find your peace, love, and joy...WITHIN...and to find fulfillment in your very own purpose and plan. It doesn't necessarily mean that you physically depart from everyone...but I think you can experience a sense of seperateness...amidst the crowd.
Don't think I'll touch the other one.
merciful1

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted October 03, 2004 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Merciful.

No I haven't read the book "Jonathan Livingston Seagull".

You are right children in this generation have been taught to follow the bull or remain behind.

It really works in the animal kingdom or in the laws of evolution. I wonder why the spiritual world is an inversion as Jesus suggests "Last will be first" so on.

I will definitely look for the bokks you mention.

Cheers.

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merciful1
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posted October 03, 2004 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for merciful1     Edit/Delete Message
I finally remembered the title--it's "Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah", by Richard Bach. Seagull is a quick read and heartwarming. Same author. Illusions is thought-provoking and really takes you on a journey.
He wrote a thicker book too, which I never read...I think it is titled "One". Maybe One day....

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merciful1

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FishKitten
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posted October 12, 2004 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
I loved that book (Illusions: Confessions of a Releuctant Messiah") and Johnathan Livingston Seagull. Both are very much worth reading.

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