posted October 11, 2004 12:32 AM         

First Question: Which was the dreamer? the
caterpillar becoming a butterfly? or the man? or
both?

posted October 15, 2004 09:58 PM         

especially to rhetorical questions.

posted October 15, 2004 10:33 PM         

It is a hypothetical question not a rhetorical. Come on.

Honestly even I don't have the answer.

I will wait for few more days before I answer. Waiting for more responses.

posted October 16, 2004 03:58 AM         

Anyhow, seeing the former post has been edited, I shall erase the attitude and start fresh. Was it Linda who suggested to "white-out" the thoughts that cloud happiness? Maybe I'm mistaken. It's a good idea anyway, wherever I picked it up from.

So . . . voila! Released and refreshed!

posted October 16, 2004 08:12 AM         

quote:

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First Question: Which was the dreamer? the caterpillar becoming a butterfly? or the man? or both?

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They are both. When all is one, there is no time or seperation - they both had the same dream as they are both caterpillars and man. They are both butterflies.

quote:

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Second Question: What will we discover we are when we awaken?

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The absolute bliss of knowing. First you Be, then you experience, then you Know. Good morning, I hope you had a nice nap

One thing I love about Lindaland, is that when people are "testy" you can't relly tell. Generally. So long as there's no name calling, everything's cool really.

Yes, the word is "Cancel!" to negate negative words or thoughts - I just checked, and it just hit number one again in Oranges and Hyacinths if you want to check it out.

As to the question "how can you wait to post the answer if you claim to not have it?" I think sometimes you sense the answer but haven't arrived at it yet. Literally. I once heard (I think from Linda actually) that if you forget something, the best thing to do is go to where you last re-membered it, and pick it up. For example, you may walk around your apartment trying to memorize a maths exam when you come to the answer by the fridge. When you get back to your pad to write it down, you real-ize you've for-gotten it. So go back to the fridge and pick it up again! Likewise with thoughts you haven't had yet, maybe walk around and see if you stumble into it

Welcome, by the way.

posted October 16, 2004 08:35 AM         

Zoso and Sesame:
When I said , I will answer meant I will have to go back to the question and express my point of view. Sesame's answere were along those lines (for other readers who want to answer too). It was a joy to read your opinion. You do have the ability to put to words in a nice way of what you think.

One thing I want to share, everytime I read it I come with different answers?

CHEERS KNOWFLAKES

posted October 16, 2004 11:30 AM         

Since its talking of Man. Lets consider the world and time as one of the attributes of this world.

Mind and time are like siamese twins. They are inseperable.

Having said that. Everything is illusive in this world. Remember Maya. So this also includes time.

Therefore the past is history the future is anticipation. They are both illusive.

There fore everything from the act of sleep of man to the caterpillar becoming a butterfly is an illusion.

And what is Maya. A part of God. Ceaseless.

posted October 16, 2004 11:56 AM         

As usual lately...on the go and don't have the time I'd like to reply just yet.......but I came across this article recently and thought of this thread and wanted to share it:

The Butterfly Transformation: A Perfect Role Model

by Cindy Griffith

Why the butterfly? Because it doesn't freak out when it knows it's time to change! It just sees change as the next step. In its caterpillar stage, it creates its little cocoon, goes inside, and when times up, and after quite a work out, it emerges, transformed into a butterfly. It stretches its newfound wings and flies away to discover its new vistas!

Why can't we do that? First we would complain that we have to sit still. "I'm stagnating! I must be off my path!" and then we'd cry "Oh no it's dark, it (I) must be bad!" Then, when time to come out, "let someone else do the work. I'll be the supportive one." "You want me to fly? I'm still processing!" "I'm not allowed to fly; I fell down in a past life and it's my Karma to stay forever on the ground!" "I can't just take off without knowing where I am going!"

I remember hearing that when we are stopped, it's because God is busy working out the details. It's just like the down time the caterpillar has to go through in order to be the butterfly. Can you imagine if the caterpillar said, "I can't stop now and just hang out in a cocoon! I still have to climb to the next branch!" If he only knew how much easier it will be when he can fly! We often forget how much easier it is to fly.

It does get dark in the cocoon of Transformation! A major part of our transformation is when we allow ourselves to go in and see our dark side. Jung said that too much light makes very big shadows! Any creation contains duality, Masculine and Feminine, Dark and Light. I won't say Good and Bad, as they are judgements about Dark and Light. The Dark is a necessary figure, without it, we have no balance. There is a wonderful story about the time before Kali took her role of dispersing disease, rot and death. Living was a misery, nobody died. There was no room! There was no food! There was no appreciation for life! Thank Goodness she heard our cries and gave us the gift of time, rot, disease and death. Now a baby grows up, has babies and dies making room for his or her baby's babies. We now appreciate the time that we are given on this plane.

I see the times when we are willing to look at the darker, more destructive side of ourself as that stage when you are cleaning out the closet. Everything is out on the floor and looking a mess! You think it will never look good again! It Looks like you get the same results in transformation! You pull out all parts of yourself (all the parts, not just the light, pretty, spiritual ones!) You throw out or recycle what is no longer useful and reorganize the rest. Then you know what's in there, and you can reach in and get what ever you need! (and you don't waste energy worrying about what is going to jump or fall out every time the closet of your psyche opens!) Don't throw away all the Dark Parts, sometimes you need the Destroyer within to help get rid of a situation that has outgrown itself, or the Angry One who, once recognized as an important part of the crew, has learned the appropriate times and ways to express anger!

Once you have been in the Dark of the Cocoon long enough, it is time to get out! "Uh oh! You want me to leave the safety of this nice warm beautiful cocoon?" "If it's time to leave, I WANT A REALLY BIG SIGN!" Sometimes it's scary to leave that time of inner reflection and get back into the outer world. Sometimes we get lost in helping others and never get around to finishing our own transformation. Everyone knows that if your help the butterfly out of his cocoon, his wings will be too weak and he dies. The butterfly needs to go through the struggle to be strong enough to fly away and so do we! (Are all of us well meaning, helpful co-dependents listening????)

Once we have emerged into the outer world, we find our new found strength and beauty that we had hidden away also emerged. We aren't so prone to excuses. We are now ready to take the next step and put what we have learned into action. We take that Leap of Faith, and begin to fly the highs and the lows of the next stage in our soul's evolution.

I am sure most of us can relate to at least one of the stages of the little caterpillar journey of transformation! Next time you see a butterfly go by, take a moment to remember the message it brings you. Ask yourself where are you on the journey of your transformation. Then send that butterfly lots of love, It went through a lot to get here!

***********

Made me think that 'flying' is a bit like leaping into the Void. A complete trust and surrender in the unknowable.

posted October 17, 2004 01:24 AM         

quote:

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There is a wonderful story about the time before Kali took her role of dispersing disease, rot and death

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posted October 20, 2004 11:39 AM         

If we are always in a state of Now.....with the unknowable always before Us....then we are Allways "flying", although unaware we really are.

Every moment is a stretch of wings from where we've been.

So, as the catipillar dreams of the sky......maybe that's because the butterfly that he already is inside envisions this same dream....as he flys everyday. They are Seeing through the same Eyes.
Is this really transformation?
Or Liberation?

hmmmmmm........

posted October 20, 2004 12:13 PM         

Transformation is observed in a linear time.

Libration is Transformation in a non linear time.

posted October 20, 2004 11:44 PM         

quote:

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One who is not touched by pleasure or pain, greed, emotional attachmennt and egoistical pride - says Nanak, listen, mind: he is the very image of God.

One who is beyond praise and slander, who looks upon gold and iron alike - says Nanak listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated

One who is not affected by pleasure or pain, who looks upon friend and enemy alike - says Nanak listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated

One who renounces Maya and possesiveness and is detatched from everything - says Nanak, listen, mind: God abides in his heart

That mortal, who forsakes egotism, and realizes the Creator Lord - says Nanak, that person is liberated; O mind know this as true

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posted October 30, 2004 12:10 PM         

Iam, it All ties in well.
Transformation is Liberation, observed.
What appears to be transformed from the outside observing eyes, is really the inside Freed.

I found this definition:

linear transformation:

A transformation in which the new variables are linear functions of the old variables.

posted October 31, 2004 10:20 PM         

This was my take:

quote:

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Transformation is observed in a linear time.

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We grow from small to big, and then sometimes small again. This is not just materially, but can be spiritually. We can have spurts, but these would also be "linear".

quote:

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Libration is Transformation in a non linear time.

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I'd say liberation can happen any time and relate to anyother times. They could be in the form of de ja vus, or dreams. Also, soul liberation means COMPLETE freedom. You are back to the source of everything both everywhere and nowhere. How could this be linear?

These were just the thoughts I had when I read that.