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Author Topic:   Focusing on Illusion
Kat
Knowflake

Posts: 643
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2003

posted March 28, 2005 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat     Edit/Delete Message
Has anyone else become disenchanted by this trend to focus on the mechanical aspects of spirituality? By this I mean that lately I've been challenged by ideology that supposedly reveals the Truth of all Reality. What usually happens is some fundamentalist New Ager has a belief that his view of the Universe is Truth. For instance, in my church some individuals are taking a LITERAL view that this Universe is an Illusion. They have all sorts of quantum physics that support the idea we live in this "holographic" world. They have all sorts of quotes of text that support this view as well. OK, believe what you want, but it seems to me that it's not really productive. I'm not saying we MUST be productive, but when someone says "I finally got "it" that this world is an illusion and I ask myself why do I worry or bother to even recycle."!!!!!! That just floored me. Personally I think if we are being spiritual we see the unity of ourselves with the entire universe, people, plant, and everything else.We extend ourselves out of love and compassion because that's what loving spiritual people do. It almost seems like some transitory phase that leads you down a road that doesn't lead to the center.
(Sorry I'm having difficulty explaining this.) Some even has this attitude that if they world blows up because of our unskilled behavior, that's ok because this world isn't real anyway. It all in God's will. Once again I think to myself, these people could care less about dying species, they think they focus on themselves and meditate they could change the world.

Any thoughts?

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amisha121877
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From: USA
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posted March 28, 2005 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amisha121877     Edit/Delete Message
"LITERAL view that this Universe is an Illusion. "

i believe there are some people who are "chained" to the thought that there is nothing outside their own "universe" that this new ager thought that you have presented here, was a means to rescue individuals of that nature (chained) so that they can be more productive than what their own "universe" mind has led them to believe, be chained to - restrict themselves by believing. NOW - we all know that as in any thought - some people are so "chained" to being told what's "truth" (a product of their own "universe") or not - that they completely move themselves from being chained to one thought to being chained to another. i believe, for that type of situation, there is production but nothing more than what was in the situation they were in beforehand.

i believe, as in many things - balance (which actually opens doors) is the key to the distance one can truly go and the production one actually puts out / being committed to one focus/one world/one belief actually closes doors - a human being is a multi-tasking invention of a higher power so...????.

my newest focus now is the essence of commitment which makes your post a very interesting one to ponder over.

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zoso
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From: Arizona
Registered: Sep 2004

posted March 28, 2005 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for zoso     Edit/Delete Message
I read this book The Holographic Universe and it says that the universe is simply a hologram--the whole is in even the smallest portion like a hologram.

However, my stupid self could not get past the fact that the hologram is holographic of SOMETHING. so if the universe is a hologram, then it is one of the UNIVERSE> ? Does that make any sense? How can a hologram exist if there is nothing to represent it in the first place>

Like in Star Wars, when R2D2 shows the hologram of the princess, the hologram might be an illusion, but there was an actual princess to make the hologram from. She existed in the first place. She wasn't a hologram herself, and the hologram isn't her either. The hologram is the illusion, she is the reality....

Anyways, even if everything isn't real or whatever, we are in the hologram, or illusion for a reason if only to be in the illusion. Why not run wild with that and actually LIVE in the illusion for the appropriated length of time that we are here for? Seems like too much fun to pass up.

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amisha121877
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From: USA
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posted March 28, 2005 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amisha121877     Edit/Delete Message
"Why not run wild with that and actually LIVE in the illusion for the appropriated length of time that we are here for? Seems like too much fun to pass up. "

for whatever it's worth on as many playing fields as we can fathom.

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Gia
Knowflake

Posts: 1154
From: California
Registered: May 2004

posted March 29, 2005 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
The holographic universe tells us that objective reality does not exist and that the universe is one amazingly huge, gigantic, splendidly designed, hologram.

What we must remember, is that when we take apart something holographic, we get much smaller wholes. None the less they are pieces of something else. Wholes of a much greater WHOLE.

To understand illusion is to know that there is more than we can see, touch and feel. If we don't understand that there is more to us we simply don't grow. When we know there is something outside the box and we are just a piece of it, we strive to understand what else there is.

You still have to live your life and you can still have fun. There is more fun to be had then most people realise. There is greater potiental just beyond our physicality that's all.

Gia

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Gia
Knowflake

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From: California
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posted March 31, 2005 01:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
I felt perhaps I should add to this by saying, that the illusion of life is that it's not personal, it is holographic .... as for reincarnation of many lives that is also part illusion. We are all parts of one diamond with many facets, all parts of one whole, all working in unison. There is no "personal self" all that will be dropped when we drop our present flesh garb. However, our identity, personality, distinctive character will remain, not as a separated "thing" but as a quality related to the whole. A record if you like.

As a spirit takes control of it's new body, it also takes control of it's recording process of past experiences of previous expressions. It can be argued that to say you lived a previous life as Queen Elizabeth is somewhat incorrect. It's more like spirit psychometry, the art of holding an object and reading it.

I thank Dr.Kahn for showing me the way. I hope it helps you also. Your physical expression in this dimension is just as valid because it represents an experience in the WHOLE.

Gia

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amisha121877
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From: USA
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posted March 31, 2005 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amisha121877     Edit/Delete Message
Gia,
"I felt perhaps I should add to this by saying, that the illusion of life is that it's not personal,"

GREAT point - you know how we get when we take things personally......all unbalanced. I have to admit, I do slip with that sometimes. My uncle gave me the book - A Purpose Driven Life to read - lol, and i didn't get past "it's not about me" yet.

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Kat
Knowflake

Posts: 643
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2003

posted April 02, 2005 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat     Edit/Delete Message
I'm glad that there are others that understand this topic, so I can bounce my ideas off of you. I think the difficulty I have with this philosophy is that pretty much everything connected with my body - my ability to paint, move, question, my personality etc. are all impermanent in this philosophy, it is all an illusion and will be lost when I pass. I go back to the "oneness" and lose all individual identity.It then makes me question why have this human life at all if this "oneness" is perfection, perhaps this "other life" is not as perfect and whole as we think??
I then question the concept of hologram. If we are like a shattered mirror or a hologram cut into tiny bits, each bit containing all the information of the whole,when we pass that part that was separate becomes whole. I can understand this on a spiritual level - this invisible force with in us. Yet it seems that in this earth life, separation is reality, because to include it into the holographic concept would imply that this human reality is the same as "God's domain". Would God allow killing and dying to exist in "his" world? That implies imperfection. (Hopefully your following me.)
To me this world just seems like another reality or dimension and not an illusion that is purposeless. If a child cries a mother answers the call and doesn't question if this is an illusion or reality. Either way your right it's "worth playing on as many field as we can fathom."

Yes, amisha balance is essential to our lives in every way.

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Gia
Knowflake

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From: California
Registered: May 2004

posted April 02, 2005 07:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
No it's not the same. Part of something is not the whole of. It lacks the full potential of the whole although it's still part of it. Think of DNA. A finger nail or a swab of your saliva will contain a whole holographic potential YOU.

An uncut cake is complete until you cut a piece of it and then it becomes a slice. As I tried to explain before, your identity meaning your personality, is never lost. It is absorbed into the greater whole or God force if you like.

The reality is, that you are not just physical. The physical is UNREAL because it's not lasting.

There are basically two parts of you and not three. You are not mind, body and spirit. You are just body and spirit. The body is nothing without your spirit and your mind useless, unless your spirit inputs it because physical things do not emote themselves.

In the Bible Numbers 23.19 - It tells you that God is not man.

In John 1 5 - God is Light.

So we all carry this God/Light DNA. So even though we have unique life patterns, not always, although mostly, these are recorded in our electromagnetic DNA and can be read, as I pointed out earlier. It may not be your past life even though it may seem like it. Often we have two or three regressed individuals with same past life experiences.

Do not concern yourself with death or physical remains. Jesus did not, he said, " Let the dead bury the dead and follow me."

He knew they would be back and they were, for light is energy, it changes form but is never destroyed. The so called God particle is adamant and is sometimes called the adamantine particle because of it's very nature. It is immortal. You are already imortal, you aspiring imortals.

Gia


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Kat
Knowflake

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From: Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2003

posted April 04, 2005 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat     Edit/Delete Message
Gia,
I'd like to think that part of my personality, skills, etc. remain with me "in the afterlife." yet so much of my personality is determined by my impermanent physical body. If I'm brain damaged, all which is influenced by my physical body will be permanently altered if I survive.
I'm not certain whether we have two or three parts to "ourselves" -- the impermanent body, the spirit - the God essence within us, and our soul which bridges the two. I've though about the possibility of us only having two parts, the body, and then the God/divinity within us, but then we would be essentially God's puppets.In order for our personality, etc. to survive beyond this world, there would need to be some type of soul or spiritual bridge between God and our human existance. (Of course, I still debate myself about this.)

I follow your concept of part of something not having the full potential as the whole. However, what some people have been saying about quantum physics, string theory, and the holographic concept is that it is essentially all wholeand complete in each and every part.It's as if there are zillions upon zillions of copies all with the same information. Personally, I don't see myself as having the same full potential as God and this above concept is troubling to me because I know many people who feel that they do. I know that this is the path they are on. Maybe they are right and I'm not. Who knows?

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Philbird
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From: Here, there and everywhere.
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posted April 05, 2005 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Philbird     Edit/Delete Message
I wish I could express intelligibly how the idea of a holographic universe makes sense. I'm halfway through reading The Holographic Universe, and I've got to say, it has had such a profound effect on me, to the point of tears. To be able to understand HOW we are able to make the body mind connection and heal ourselves physically and spiritually blows my mind. As I read it I can picture it happening. I need to work on faith... but the scientific aspect put so many things in order... for me.
I have never in my life had the guts to have faith in a God, religion, or myself, for fear I would be dissappointed. I've wandered around aimlessly looking for a connection to SOMETHING! Some may use the word God, but I have realized I don't have to call it anything, I just know, "it." I can also feel this is right for me. I didn't have to try to make sense of anything. Perhaps some frequencies were tapped?

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sesame
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From: Oz
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posted April 07, 2005 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Wow, some very sublime thoughts out there. Personally, I think if it helps, then use it. If not move on. You can't go wrong. For me, knowing everything is an illusion is akin to saying everything is energy which is the only real truth I believe. e = mc squared relates energy to matter, and then there's the infinite spectrum theory, and the infinite dimension theory - it's all one and the same. How does a microbe on a fleas back affect me? Well, it's made of the same stuff. If it were to disappear, then a little of the energy from the all would disappear and create a hole in the space-time contiuum. Everything has it's place. As for the notion "if the world blows up because of our unskilled behavior, that's ok", well, who would exist to say otherwise? You could think of this as being optimistic I personally love learning new secrets or interesting thnigs re the universe, but also realise they are meaningless themselves. Life is about experience more tahn anything, and even that is completely debatable - everything's relative to everyone. You can't do what I do, and yet we both all do the same things. I view the world as a creation from God in which everything is possible, but completely individual. You don't have to meditate or be completely productive, that's personal. Likewise we could or could no cling to material things according to our own wills. Right and Wrong is completely subjective as to what you want to Become. Everything is relative. Everything is related. If we are all characters in a big play, then why not sit back and watch? I think to many people stress about being productive. True productivity stems from individual desires, not what other people think.

Just some of my thoughts,
Dean.

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SunChild
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From: Australia
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posted April 08, 2005 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
Great thoughts Dean

I agree with most of what you said, indeed!

------------------
"And dreams, don't ever forget, are the first step in manifesting wishes into reality"-- Linda Goodman's Star Signs

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Gia
Knowflake

Posts: 1154
From: California
Registered: May 2004

posted April 09, 2005 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
I actually said, smaller wholes that do not realise the potential of the much larger whole. Think about that for a mo and ask yourself why?

For how we see very much depends on where we stand and from which direction we look. If we look from within we actually learn to see more clearly, but if we look with just our human eyes, then we see through a glass darkly as it says in the Bible. The potential is there, however it is not yet realised. It is realised through AT ONE MENT.

Gia

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fayte.m
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posted April 09, 2005 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
never try to force your will on another. My mother is what I would term a rabid Christian If that term offends, I can only say this; You haven't met her! Her attitude is of the type that would condone ethnic or religious persecution etc. Respect and tolerance for others is one way to peace.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Offhand I don't remember who said that.

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fayte.m
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posted April 09, 2005 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
One way to look at it is that we are parts of God the Creator having human experiences. God, Creator. Creator anagrams into Reactor. A Reactor releases energy, hence The Big Bang. So the Creator in this Cosmic self shattering becomes the Creation in all its myriad diversity. Perhaps God was lonely or eternity had become boring with no change. Just some thoughts to ponder.

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Gia
Knowflake

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From: California
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posted April 10, 2005 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
Everyone of us is free to refuse or accept his or her own beliefs. However, this does not change who, or what we are. For we are ALL THE SAME. So that means I can never judge, nor am I capable of judging anyone else's reality. We can only share and that which is deep within us does the rest.

Please remember by definition, open mindedness must be confused mindedness, and must be divided mindedness, which means perceptions based not truth. Perceptions are always based on interpretations after all.

I had a thought about the last posting. Does that not suggest God as somehow lacking or incomplete? Lacking as in lonely?

If God knew all his children as I know he does, would he have put them in a position where they could have been deceived by evil?

I have come to my own conclusion that what we perceive is not always true or correct. In fact, I have come to believe that religions are divided perceptions, so I do hope you were not implying that I was a religious fundamentalist because that would most definitely be a false perception. I am probably the most unreligious person I know.

It is well perhaps to remind your mother that Christ accepted all no matter what their religion equally. Only "Fear" creates that kind attitude. It's a shame really because God is not conflicted and all these so called religions are, with one another. How sad is that? If only we could look inside us more and not outside ourselves it would make a difference.


Gia

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fayte.m
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posted April 11, 2005 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
I do have some theories and some other information, but I do not want to upset anyone. For a starter to ponder....read Genesis. There appear to be two different creations and one is by God first who gives no restrictions and made the male and female at the same time....then the next by Lord God with restrictions. Many Biblical scholars have notice this, not just me. God does not need a title. Something is just not right here....more later on the other points you've made. There are answers...in the Bible itself. Some rather shocking and disturbing things that when I {or others} have pointed them out, people often say, "you are a liar! That's not in the Bible!"....But to their horror or added shock, it is. Well...if they bother to go read it for themselves. Also all versions of the Bible vary greatly, especially on the fine points. It is quite amazing really.
Oh, by the way... nowhere does it say Eve or the woman was driven from the garden specifically, only the man. And what about the stories of Lilith? Ok enough for now.Later!

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fayte.m
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posted April 11, 2005 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
Gia! NO! I most definitely did NOT think you are a fundamentalist! You wouldn't reply to me so nicely if you were! I'll get back to you with some things for you to ponder based on your last post Good questions and statements deserve a response!

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Kat
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From: Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2003

posted April 11, 2005 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat     Edit/Delete Message
Hang me from a ten foot pole, but I don't personally feel drawn to the "story" of Genesis. Much of my beliefs come from nature and what's not "written." I feel that written words can be edited to fit someone's will or ideology.

I think over these past week after writing this I'm more content with the idea of not knowing the answers. One thing is clear that I have one shot with this human life and I am willing to make it a better one than I'm currently living. This last week I've learned of several individuals' deaths. One was a co-worker only a year older than me. Another an old boyfriend's father. Many well known people have passed. and my sister (who is greatly improving) had severe pneumonia and was hospitalized for over a week and a half. These events put things into perspective.

Fayte.m Are you an Eastsider or Westsider?

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fayte.m
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posted April 11, 2005 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
By the way I research all the religions, not just the various versions of the Bible, and the related works banned from it as heresy. I do not have a religion. I enjoy trying to figure out why people often blindly believe in something and ignore the blatant contradictions just because someone said a certain story etc. is holy and true....does not make it so. I'm trying to point these contradictions out and not offend at the same time. There are some perfectly awful and downright illogical going ons in any of the versions of the Bible. The writings of most of the others {sacred writings of other cultures}are not full of cruelty to ones fellow human.That so many are afraid to ask what all that bloodshed is about in the so called "good book",is worrisome.

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Kat
Knowflake

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From: Cleveland, Ohio
Registered: Jan 2003

posted April 13, 2005 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat     Edit/Delete Message
Ashtabula - nice area. I'm a westside Clevelander myself.

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