posted May 28, 2005 03:13 PM              

---

What do you think....

Shall we self-destruct under the weight of (what is called) "Truth" ?

Or be ressurrected through the lightness of (what is called) "Faith" ?

IP: Logged

posted May 28, 2005 08:45 PM              

---

can we do both simultaneously and reach some sort of peaceful balance? because we need to fall apart before we can put ourselves back together.

IP: Logged

Posts: 2865
From: Columbus, GA USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 29, 2005 10:20 AM            

---

Truth has its place.

------------------
"There is no use trying," said Alice; "one can't believe impossible things." "I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Lewis Carroll

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 10:25 AM              

---

Perhaps.

But, what about this:

"If Sun and Moon should ever doubt,
They would immediately go out."
- William Blake

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 12:56 PM              

---

Hi Jonathan, are you a Scorpio by any chance?

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 03:32 PM              

---

It would be impossible for us humans to approach TRUTH without some amount of faith and unlikely that we could demonstrate FAITH without having at least some inkling of TRUTH.
They surely go hand-in-hand for those of the flesh.
The Sun and Moon are certain of the TRUTH and so don't rely on FAITH. (lucky them) Mr. Blake of course spoke from his corporal self, and likely knew how important faith is for us human folk.
Just my thoughts.

By the way Johnathon, are you of the Livingston branch of Gulls???

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 06:11 PM              

---

hey sue g,

It's me, hsc (Heart-Shaped Cross),
Ressurrected.

So, YES, I am very much a Scorpio.
(with sun/venus/mc/uranus conjunct, aqua moon in the 1st, pluto in the 9th, and a mars merc conjunction in Sag Trine Jupiter in Leo - yay ME!!!)

Saturn's Child,

I love your response.

I guess, I'm thinking along Keirkegaardian lines (not that I've actually read him), ala "Either/Or". Sure, that's just the Scorpio talking, but, hey, who's up for being born again, and again, ....
Anyone?... Anyone?... Bueller?

The way I figure it, the pentacle, being neither half-full nor half-empty,
is right side up or upside down.

Truth - and, in this case, I guess what we are talking about is Matter, -
will take care of itself, no?

Our job here, if we choose to accept it, is to tune-in to a higher vibration; to Faith; to Spirit, no?

Am I right or am I right?

------------------
Create magnificent, blissful, loving thoughts; for, what you think, you will feel; and what you feel, you will express; and what you express will increase and be reflected back to you in a multitude of ways.

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 08:32 PM              

---

Jonathan Gull! Hello!
I shall watch your posts further before speaking. I too am a Scorpio. Aquarian moon, Venus in Scorpio.

IP: Logged

posted May 29, 2005 11:29 PM              

---

hey fayte,

I should have suspected you were a Scorp,
since I already knew what a strong person you are.

This one's for us:

"Don't lead, I may not follow.
Don't follow, I may not lead.
But walk beside me, and be my friend."

- Albert Camus
Philospher
Scorpio Sun, Aquarius Moon

IP: Logged

posted May 30, 2005 01:17 AM              

---

Jonathan Gull!
One of my absolute favorites! You DO understand! Thank you muchly!
Love
Fayte
Kinda thought it seemed like YOU!

IP: Logged

Posts: 52
From: Oz
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 30, 2005 02:05 AM            

---

Well, I'm never one to pass up a philosophical discussion, but yes, I think faith is truth. Both are subjective. Both are impossible to have completely. I thought both were very light, but can be deep. They are relative. Faith might not hurt as much, unless it is unrealised. Truth might not be as easy to practice, especially if you don't have faith.

In an either/or situation, I'd go with faith 100 percent. It is an action and therefore I will never get tired of it, but truth can be exhaustive. Also, as stated, completely impossible to have completely, but at least faith allows you to KNOW that it doesn't matter

There are no ruts in faith. Only fat

Dean.

------------------
Always think compassion... The Dalai Lama
My numerology program based on "Star Signs" by Linda Goodman
Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!)

IP: Logged

posted May 30, 2005 11:40 AM              

---

fayte,

hey Dean,

I dig it.
It's almost silly the way we compare/contrast perspectives.
But that's the fun of it, I guess.
I know that neither is more right or wrong.
BUT, isn't one more conducive to growth than another, or does that also just depend on the stage of the journey (what journey!) that one is currently invested in?

This stuff makes my head hurt every time.
I always come back to Love.
Maybe Love is the unifying principal,
the marriage of "Truth" and "Faith";
"Matter" and Spirit (why can't i bring myself to put Spirit in quotes?!).

So, okay, back to the Yin/Yang...
At the heart of Faith, Truth;
At the heart of Truth, Faith.
Is matter really at the heart of spirit...
hm, talk about a virgin birth;
now my head really hurts, lol!

But, Dean, what's this about things being impossible?
Sure, faith and truth seem all bound up together, but is that faith or truth or truth/faith talking; does that mean they can never be unbound?
Things that make you go URGH!!

So what if gravity keeps pulling us back to earth. That's gravity's business, but must we make it ours as well?

"The secret to life is to fall down seven times and get up eight times."
- introduction to Paulo Coelho's "The Alchemist"

(I would have said to fall down seventy times seven times, and to get up seventy times seven plus one times.)

With Faith all things are possible.
Maybe I sould be saying "Love" instead of Faith.
Who would argue with that, I wonder.
Hmm, every unenlightened soul on earth, I suppose.
(And round and round we go,
and where we stop, our fears expose.)

Ahhhhhhh!!!,
Auuuuuuuum,
Jonathan Gull

------------------
Create magnificent, blissful, loving thoughts; for, what you think, you will feel; and what you feel, you will express; and what you express will increase and be reflected back to you in a multitude of ways.

IP: Logged

posted May 30, 2005 05:38 PM              

---

Seems that Truth is something we all try to find in ways can that be considered self-destructive. Some of us seek it in addictive substances. Some of us seek it in solace. Some in fear. Some in joy and hope.
Seeking Truth with faith to me, is like opening a blank book and watching it slowly being written. With faith it seems we first trust and believe and then we see Truth.
Without faith, can Truth be seen because to me, faith is returning to innocence of heart and mind, therefore opening the way to receiving what is real.

What happens when one finds Truth? What would happen if one found Truth but suddenly lost faith?

IP: Logged

posted May 30, 2005 08:35 PM              

---

Faith is an illusion. Faith is related to hope. Hope is desperately desiring an outcome to be as wished for.
Truth is truth. It may or may not be pretty but it is reality. The movie "The Matrix" is to me an analogy of reality/truth and illusion/faith. Faith in of itself can not be proven. Truth...actual emperical evidenced truth, not opinion or theory, is truth. Truth is difficult to ascertain because opinion, preconceptions and even denial mechanisms can obscure it...especially if it is indeed a truth which conflicts with the formers, or is not the way or truth one desires or wishes to accept. Give me bare bones truth over faith any day. I do not wish to live in the "Matrix".

IP: Logged

Posts: 566
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 30, 2005 11:02 PM            

---

Philosophy isn`t my forte, but I love to contemplate this verse .

Hbr 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

love,

IP: Logged

posted May 31, 2005 01:36 AM              

---

Truth is what you make it.
That's where Faith comes in.

IP: Logged

Posts: 52
From: Oz
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 31, 2005 02:39 AM            

---

I so love it when you're here Juni How have you been? How are the four leggeds?

I have to say that quote is within my line of thinking. Faith explains what truth can not. It could be seen to cloud your judgement and to lead no where, but I feel it is far easier to search for than truth.

Impossible? Perfection is impossible. Truth is perfection. Well, the search is similar. Always just falling short, but to live is err right? Eh, don't know who said that.

Fayte, you've made me spiral too, but I kinda disagree. I think faith is more an action than an outcome. It's positivity in its most naive form, but it does create miracles in that form eh?

Merlinesque, if one found truth, all would be lost. But then, all would be back home to the one again, so it's not all bad

Dean.

IP: Logged

posted May 31, 2005 03:05 PM              

---

within truth are all things explained
so truth contains all
faith is the belief that all things can be contained within the all
so faith is found in truth and truth is found in faith
and love is simply accepting this .

IP: Logged

posted May 31, 2005 05:10 PM              

---

TRUTH can not be created or made...IT IS what it is! If altered or surrounded by hope or faith then it is no longer bare, pure truth but truth shrouded in veils of illusion. delusion and fear or denial. Truth can not be seen clearly through such a miasma of feeling or perception.
A miracle is only a miracle because we do not know the way in which it came about. But even a miracle was/is the end result of a process..from God or otherwise. A mystery is only a mystery because we do not have the answer...but as with the answer being out there...so it is with Miracles and Truth...The answers DO exist!
Fayte

PS.People thought the world was flat(some still do)..and that speaks volumes to the permanence of popular belief in a thing that even though not true was accepted as truth because that is what people were told by so called wise men of their time...or fearful superstitious primatives. Just because something is popular, or wanted, desired or hoped for or one has faith in, does not make it automatically true. I can get on a plane. I know that as a generally rule it will be a safe trip. Logic dictates that. But to worry or throw hope into the equation can actually add an element of fear and doubt to the situation. If I got a vibe , I might not take the trip...but that is because I have more often than not had those vibes be "true". The only time I use the hope word or faith is as an affirmation of possibilities or desired outcome for a person, such as I hope you will be/do well..as a wish or summons for their well being. And faith is a way to say...I believe you may be able to...or I think you can etc.
Later!

IP: Logged

Posts: 52
From: Oz
Registered: Apr 2009

posted May 31, 2005 07:05 PM            

---

Well, see that's where our paths diverge. I believe faith creates the outcome. It is not something we understand completely because we are primitive. We have doubts and fear. If we loved completely then our faith will create miracles but they won't be considered the same as we currently think them. As Linda has said Miracle = Claim a Lie. The lie is that we think deep down it won't happen. Even after the miracle we're sceptacle. "Are you sure we did that? Did God really help, or was this a statistical anomaly?" Well, how do you prevent such thinking? Love alone is OK, but I think it's far more deeper - it's like a submersion thing. If a spunge were dropped into a glass of ink, the spunge will soak up the ink. Likewise if the spunge fell into a glass of coconut milk, it will taste and smell of coconut. My point is that humanity as a whole has to accept the power of thought for it to work completely for anyone within humanity. I still think it works for a lot of people, depending on your ability to prove your lies wrong. If you accept things the way they are, then that's the way they are.

Devilfish, I think love should be more proactive than submissive, but then I'm a hipocrite. I'm not a nurse or healer or anything. Still trying to find my ground, but then, isn't everyone? I think some people just have more motivation than others. That said, motivation isn't all you need. Many things can be created on the spur of the moment through inspiration that could be far more powerful than mere motivation, but enough ranting.

Love to all,
Dean.

IP: Logged

posted May 31, 2005 07:27 PM              

---

love begins thru submiting to you higher S elf
(following you inner voice)
thus you are able to love others as yourself
as dictated by your soul
which devlops into the opposite then as a dominant inner guide
you get equilibrium you balance the two
love is balanced expression
this process it is the transmuting of the internal alchemist
all things have their truth be it addiction ,love, hate, submission , action , sloth, greed ,envy,pride,humility,charity,mercy......
ALL have there truth
when one realizes this "everything is two sides of one coin"
then one can have faith that every truth is interconnected this evolves, albeit in different styles, into
faith in the oneness of truth
faith in this connectedness non randomness
results in a knowing of self
which results in a loving of self
which evolves into love for others ......and so on and on the wheel goes round.
jmho
love and peace

IP: Logged

posted June 01, 2005 12:16 AM              

---

Power of thought and summoning things is to me not a faith thing. It just works. If it did not, then it wouldn't be power of thought. Only a failed hope. If I summon or ask for something I expect results. I also leave an opening to the effect of...if it is the right time. Then I wait. If it is the right time it comes to me. If not, then it was not the right time. Power of thought works. As to love...pure love is Love...as pure truth is Truth. Two absolutes that are what they are...but most people are content with the shaded versions of both. Perhaps I am taking this too literally. Like the sky is blue...well not really..it only appears to be blue....but I am not going to get into the scientific or perspective aspects of what is blue etc.

IP: Logged

Posts: 8
From: ON Canada
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 01, 2005 12:23 AM            

---

One fish,
Two fish,
Red fish,
Blue fish

IP: Logged

Posts: 52
From: Oz
Registered: Apr 2009

posted June 01, 2005 02:40 AM            

---

Yes! Two awesome thoughts that you hinted at Fayte - Truth is relative, and faith - "If it is the right time it comes to me"!!! See, you have heaps of Faith! Is that the truth? We are faithful in the end that there is justice, that things are the way htey are for reasons. If there were no reasons, would there be no God? What would life be like without karma? Even Buddhists seem a little hipocritical when they say karma is what goes around comes around so negative action begets negative consequences is like their own higher moral ground, but that is faith, that everything has a reason.

Dean.

------------------
Always think compassion... The Dalai Lama
My numerology program based on "Star Signs" by Linda Goodman
Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!)

IP: Logged

posted June 01, 2005 08:42 AM              

---

the "faith" of the christian
is not identical to
the "faith" of the jew
is not identical to
the "faith" of the islamic
is not identical to
the "faith" of the taoist
is not identical to the "faith" of an atheist

these are all flavors of faith
all of these expressions of faith are truth
all of these expressions of faith are lies
truth is defined by lies
lies are defined by truth
they are interchangable
even within these flavors are differences (catholics/protestants ect.)
all have their truth
all have their deception
if you strip all faith,
beliefs / religion/perception, down
you end up with
love of self
faith opens the eyes to see ones truth/lies
love guides the heart to accept/change ones truth/lies
this is divinity,yes?
i am devilfish
this is truth as you are reading right now the words of devilfish
i am not devilfish this is true because devilfish is only a censored version of me therefore devilfish doesnt contain all of me devilfish is a piece of me but not the whole of me
devilfish is one part of my many pieces
i am limited by the title devilfish
limited by my own limit
i contain devilfish
but i am more than just devilfish
i am me unlimited in expression within
never exclusively defined by one title
always defined by many titles:mother daughter wife friend nick names birth name marriage name
and yet you are right now reading my words the words of me,devilfish
i am devilfish
i am not devilfish
both statements have truth
both statements are lies(contadictive)
now
what faith will you gain from those statements
choosing/choice/judgement
the choice you make is your faith
when you judge said statements
you choose a truth
this choice is called faith
faith that i am devilfish contained by a name by one expression
or
faith that i am more comprised by many different expressions/titles
either choice would be truth
to choose would be faith
to accept what i am despite what im called would be
love

IP: Logged