posted October 08, 2005 11:45 AM         

I hear what you are saying. Unfortunately most Christians, and religious ones I have met firmly believe that astrology, numerology and tarot are pagan practices. I am fine with this myself.....but I think if like you, you try to integrate the two, mmmm......gonna come up against some opposiiton... .

There is a piece of music played by Steve Vai called "For the love of God".....did you hear it......well at the end a guy comes in and says "walking a fine line between pagan and christian". The line can be very fine can it not.....but not many on the christian side, in my experience are prepared to cross over it...shame!

Good luck in your endeavours....you obviously like a challenge LOL

Love

posted October 08, 2005 02:19 PM         

what I wanted to add to my thread also is I want my son Gabriel, when he is old enough to feel free to choose whatever spiritual path calls to him. I don't want to force anything upon him like it was done to me.
I know my parents only had my best interests at heart and I love them for it but seeing as I've grown up now I don't share the same beliefs as they do. Of course I haven't told them any of this. They're kind of set in their ways now so I'd rather not discuss that subject with them, you know?

posted October 08, 2005 02:43 PM         

This coming together and sharing expriences, whether they be negative or positive is a little bit of heaven...

Long may it last...

And many thanks to ye all for being so generous with your time and openness.....it really helps me to realise who I truly am........

Love

posted October 08, 2005 04:15 PM         

I wasnt raised in a christian home, mum took me to church at easter and christmas etc, yet from a very young age i had personal experiences with Jesus, and i guess from the age of about 4 i have always believed in God and that Jesus is the son of god. Not thru anythng any one said just my own personal conviction from some amazing expereiences.

I dont believe in bible bashing, I feel that every person has their own truth and each person knows whats right for them, and i also agree with what Peajie said about manipulation and control, one of the reasons i stopped going to church. I dont believe i can go to hell for having a drink or making love with some i care alot about outside of marriage.

My brother is a non believer and his wife is kind of a believer, but they want their girls to make up their own minds about it. My youngest niece who is 6 feels very strongly that Jesus lives in her heart and that if she is scared of the dark or anything like that all she has to do is pray and everything will be ok. My older niece beileves in pink fairies and things like that and that is ok too.

Certain things i am very wary of, like past lives and devil worshipping etc, i personally feel that i am only here once, but i have no problem with people who believe differently to that.

One of the things i love about LL is how we can all come together and share what we feel and think about different aspects of life. I have grown so much from my experiences here in LL.

Hugs everyone
Kiwi x

posted October 08, 2005 10:15 PM         

Religions seem to maintain their existence by fear.
For example by threats of going to a strange place called hell, which of course is created only by your own mind.

How do people call themselves a "non-practising" Catholic, (or whatever etc.)
Are they afraid to let go of the word Catholic? Surely if they do not practice they are not one.

Admittedly the Christians do have a great celebration called Christmas, even though kids must be confused between Jesus and the fat-man in the red suit.
Yet it is those same "Christians" in shops who take every opportunity to leave you with the misery of big debts afterwards.

The male domination is another sad fact.
Despite Jesus telling us to worship the Mother-in-Earth as well as the Father-in- Heaven.

Religion is a social activity, a place to lose our individuality, and obviously from these posts it is not a very happy experience.

Do our minds dwell too much on the "unhappy" and sad memories in our life?

I still hope for some personal explanations of : "what Spirituality means to me......

Because I hope these will be moments of love, joy, peace and self empowerment?

posted October 09, 2005 07:48 AM         

I could say my Taurean mother is dogmatic. She preaches to me constantly, always praying or chanting some verses. And for some reason she targets me, "the rebellious" Aquarian, more than any of her other five children.

The irony is, I am the most practicing Muslim of all her children...not that her preaching built my faith. In fact, it drives me insane, and she drives me to denounce some of the things she preaches, even for things we agree on...just because she's so ridiculously forceful in her preaching, and because I don't need it. My faithful nature is something inherent in my soul, not something that can be molded or created. Because I am the most likely to question her more rigid beliefs and test her, she further preaches down to me. When that happens I have to walk away because I know there will never be any compromise from our discussions.

I noticed many former Christians, or people from Christian backgrounds believe religion to be a "man-made scam to manipulate and control". Peajie, do you completely reject Christianity, or what parts of it do you not agree with?

posted October 09, 2005 12:08 PM         

quote:

---

For me practicing religion disciplines my mind, body and soul, and in turn helps build and raise my spirituality.

---

Beautiful and echos my basic belief (actions)!

Blessings

posted October 09, 2005 04:18 PM         

and we all know how most of us feel about discipline. It sucks.

posted October 09, 2005 08:31 PM         

I wasn't bad mouthing religion. Religion is hard but, I think, usually necessary. Religion is just another word for the Law. We could all use a few ground rules, right?

posted October 09, 2005 11:46 PM         

Day Dreamer...
What a beautiful post !
Maybe you have the joy of association with those who worship the God of their own heart.

Christ is the "immortal self" in each of us.
The MAN identified as Jesus himself made clear that he is not the only Christ.

Unfortunately the Christian Church worships Jesus as God, and claims that he IS God.
(even though they also claim to have God's commandments which say "thou shalt not have an other God than God".. what a paradox).

Of course he is a part of God, but then so are you and I. Because if in the beginning there was only God who created everything then everything made must have been made out of Himself.

I understand the Muslims recognise Jesus just as they recognise Mohammed, but they do not claim that God is either of these men.

Did Jesus actually live?
Now that is another question?
Or was he a fabrication of the Catholic Church just like the story of the crucifixion?

If the truth matters to you: consider the writings in the Dead Sea scrolls of the Essenes; or study the Latin historians Tacitus and Suetonius; the Jewish historians Flavius Josphus and Justus of Tiberias; Latin writers like Quintilian and Apuleius, or Greek writers like Lucian of Samosata.

They will tell you that prior to AD 135 Jesus-Christ had not been invented!
Nor had anyone heard of the apostle Peter.
The Cononical writings of the Gospels were not declared "ne varietur" until they were compiled in AD 405, when the Catholic Church decided what would be included and what would be left out.

The definition of our Creator is a matter for personal decision, and the method of worship and thanks is a matter for our own heart.

posted October 10, 2005 12:20 AM         

Also your dates are all screwed up.
Dead Sea Scroll dates back to a period of 250BC and AD68. I am glad they finally discovered a scroll of Isaiah dated approx 2 millennia ago. To me thats the biggest proof of Jesus's existence.

quote:

---

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.(Jesus) John 5:39

---

You are right, the essenes would not have known or even if they did they were not the chosen ones to write it in scriptures? That job was assigned to the 12 disciples.

"Many are invited but few are chosen." - Jesus.

And even though you are sons of God. The Father does not need a son as much as a son needs the Father. You are but just a drop compared to the whole ocean. And father does not loose much if he looses a race called humans. He can roll up the heavens and begin the whole creation again anytime.
Thing is He is merciful, infinite patient and very righteous.

Lucky are we humans who are given this time to make most of it. To turn to the true light. For he Jesus will intervene for you. Just keep his commandments and do not give yourself to the heirarchy of powers that exists above and to their magics. Soon these powers will be the last to enter the Kingdom of light and us selected few humans the first.

quote:

---

For the first will be last and the last first

---

posted October 10, 2005 12:53 AM         

Jesus's main message was also worship of God in truth and Spirit. Its a different story when you go in search of truth you end up in the knowledge or rather the end of it

posted October 10, 2005 01:58 AM         

Jesus left for us a coded prayer "Our Father."

posted October 10, 2005 11:07 AM         

ALL beliefs are just that, an individual's "beliefs" based on personal understanding of manipulated records..

There is no value in provoking discussions over disagreements.
But I am was not aware that I quoted any dates about the Essenes which I could have "screwed up"?

However, it is known that the man alleged to be Jesus WAS an Essene.

It is also known that when he gave the Prayer for "OUR father in Heaven" he also instructed that it should be said in conjunction with the prayer to "Our mother in Earth..".

Strange that The Christian church has done everything possible to hide the Mother's Prayer, and to obliterate any record of the Essenes.

posted October 10, 2005 11:21 AM         

It is from this prayer that derived the current version of "Our Father", the ecumenical prayer of ISSA (Jesus ).

It's is written in aramaic, in a white stone of marble, in Jerusalem , in the Monte of the Olive trees, in the form that was invoked by Master Jesus.

The aramaic was an original language of High Mesopotamia, and the language used by the people of the area. Jesus always spoke to the people in aramaic.

The direct translation of the aramaic for the English, (without the interference of the Church), show us how this prayer is beautiful, deep and true, in keeping with Master Jesus.

Our Father/Our Mother, breathing of the Life,
Source of the sound, Action without words,
Creator of the Cosmos!
Make your Light shine inside of us,
among us and out of us
so that we can turn it useful.

Help us to follow our road,
Just breathing the feeling that emanates from YOU.
Ours ME, in the same step, may be with Yours,
so that we walk as Kings and Queens
With all the other creatures.

That Yours and our desire, be only one,
in the whole Light, as well as in all the forms,
in all individual existence,
as well as in all the communities.

Make us feel the soul of the Earth inside of us,
because, like this, we will feel the Wisdom that exists in everything.
Don't allow that the superficiality
and the appearance of the things of the world deceives us,
And free us of all that that
impedes our growth.
Don't let us be taken by the forgetfulness
that You are the Power and the Glory of the world,
the Song that rejuvenates from times to times
and that to everything beautifies.

May YOUR love be the soil
where increases our actions.

Amen!!!

+++++

"*Abwoon d'bashmaia
Netcádash shimóch
Tetê malcutách Una
Nehuê tcevianách aicana
d'bashimáia af b'arha
Hôvlan lácma d'suncanán
Iaomána
Uashbocan háubein uahtehin
Aicána dáf quinan shbuocán
L'haiabéin
Uêla tahlan l'nesiúna.
Êla patssan min bíxa
Metúl dilahie malcutá
Uaháila
Uateshbúcta láhlám.
ALMÍN. "

*Abwoon in aramaic means "Our Father", but can also be translated as "Our Mother".

(copied from jackiep`s post, thank you jackie) http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000576.html

Belief is actions.

posted October 10, 2005 11:41 AM         

Sir Peajie,
I respect your age. I am not here to argue, but was hoping you share your knowledge with us tadpoles

I think you are wrong about the Christians. Catholics do pray for Mary which I believe represents the essence of Maternal God.

Also back then people were bright bulbs so I do not believe there is anything wrong in selecting certain books in the canonical gospels. I also do not think that its a coincidence that all these old edifices Nag Hammadi, Dead Sea scrolls are showing up now when wisdom is increasing.

Theres no rush, the Kundalini energy cannot be forced to rise. Like flowers, it should open up slowly and gently.

Peace be with you my friend.

quote:

---

Let us not be like the stars for they become stardusts. Let us hope to clothe ourselves with an eternal light. - IAT".

---

posted October 10, 2005 06:06 PM         

I converted to Catholicism at age 24, and it shocked a lot of people who knew me. I, like so many people, collected friends who did not challenge the way I thought and who essentially agreed with me. So to them religion was simply what any has expressed here - a means of thought and behavior control, or maybe some cheap, shallow and manipulative form of consolation at best, but not for "free thinking" types.

It frustrated me a lot that my friends were so blinded by their own cognitive biases that they ceased being able to put 2 and 2 together: they knew me as a fiercely independant minded individual, and yet this meant to them that *I* was acting out of my character . NONE were able to consider that maybe *by my own character* I had found something that they had failed to see, and maybe in my own fierceness adn independence I simply realized I had to go my own way spiritually. Ironically, while they tried to presaude me to go back to my old way of thinking, they failed to frither realize that their own lack of intellectual and spiritual curiosity only added to my own increasing desires to find myself beyond the sphere. So all their effort to rein me back into that old familiar and *safe* box backfired. I began to see that not only was I called to this path - I need to pursue is earnest because I wasn't going to find what I was loooking for in the places and people I had known up until then.

I am attracted to religion mainly on an cerebral level that feds me spiritually. Religion as a whole represents humankind's desire to be in a relationship with teh divine, and in many ways it is such a humble expression of certain, basic human spiritual needs and humankind's dedsire to know God that its historical richness is just awe-inspiring to me. Music, art, literature, philosophy, science - nothing in our human world has been untouched by religion. Religious inspirations is behind so many great human achievements, how could anyone resonably think that religion is essentially bad?

Sure religion has been badly abused, but if you understand the meaning of "abuse" you'd recognize something: something that is bad to begin with cannot be abused. Only something good can be "ab-used" or used in a way that is against its nature and dignity. Religion is a human creation motivated by human needs - that is a fundamental good. Religion is also inspired by our universal yearning for the divine - that is undoubtedly a fundamental good. That fundamental goodness is demonstrrated by the fact that human civilization was build with religion - like art, religion is an expression of what we humans are and what we have always been that transcends our own languages and even the limits of our own preception. Hences why, like art, religion is a mystery and a form ofo self-discovery.

Religion is too entreached in our cultures - or rather our cultures are too treanched in religon historically for us to ever truly seperate ourselves from it. Whether atheists or "I'm spiritual but not religious" types want to face it or not, to be human is to be religious. Dostoyevski, a devoutly religious man, once said "No man is an atheist. If he does not worship God, he will worship something else: money, food, pleasure or himself." We can't deny what we are - to do so is arrogance. We yearn for something that transcends this material existence and we need avenues to explore that mystery. We need wisdom of others who have explored this mystery before us, and we need to recognize this yearning in the a faces of our fellow humankind. We need rituals that speak feelings and ideas that words are too small to articualte, and we need communities that, when they come together, strenghtened us, encourage us and guide us so that we may find eventually what it is we seek.

True, there are many things about *the way* religion is practiced or used by specific groups or indiviudal now and in the past that frustrate me or even repulse me. I also know that religion is tragically misued for ulterior motives by dishonest or undignified persons. But that kind of thing I can find is any other sphere of human endeavor, and I choose not to let the failings of others negatively define who I am. Why should I allow that to obstruct me from what I could discover about myself, my nature adn the nature and history of humankind? Why should I let other's missteps bar me from wisdom and rituals that could bring me into a fuller awareness fo the divine? I seen no benefit of being a cynic - as the oft-quoted Oscar Wilde said "A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." I knwo there is a price to be religion in our present day culture, especially when I dare post in a thread like this. But I have no desire to be a cynic and be so cowardly to think that truth is too pricey as to not be sought.

Being religious, in a full, genuine sense and not merely in a nominal sense, takes a lot of humility, integrity and courage. I admit my pride takes a beating when people accuse me of being a sheep or an automaton, but I am not religious for my pride's sake. Thankfully I have much deeper and more meaningful reasons. And honestly, I don't have much patience for people who stand on the sidelines and criticize religion because they can't or won't recognize their own spiritual fears and intellectual inhibitions. Furthermore, I don't think the "spiritual but not religious" route means anything but a cop-out. Religion is simply about encountering the divine mystery in the fullest way humankind can in this life. So either you get in the water and swim, or you don't. Standing on the beach b*tching about how terrible your father/mother was doesn't count, and wading in the ankle-high water doesn't either. Whatever your excuse, there's someone devoutly religious somewhere in the world or in history who can trump your traumas, gripes and fears, and yet remained or choose freely to be religious, because they recognized what religion truly demands of us and what it truly offers. You have to take the risk, to be submerged, to drown, to lose yourself, so to have the mystery teach you. Otherwise you will *never* know.

posted October 10, 2005 06:24 PM         

Blessings,

posted October 10, 2005 07:12 PM         

Gemnymph......your religious conversion doesnt seem to have found you peace......you often come across as very angry and discontent to me in your writings.....and at times judgemental, rather than the humlity and integrity you speak of......why is that girl?

Hopefully my spiritual beliefs have brought me a certain amount of kindness, understanding and compassion....?

And just out of interest, does the catholic church approve of your interest in astrology.......which I have noticed you have a great flair for??!!

Love to all

Sue xxx