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Author Topic:   Co-Creation; Free-Will, illogical but maybe intuitive
Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 1888
From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 08, 2006 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
I've tried to order my thoughts on this so many times, but they remain muddled. Perhaps someone can help me?:


I dont believe everyone has freewill, and, if I did, I think that would just make it easier to judge them. I could then hold them ultimately responsible for, let's say, the amount of warmth or coldness, or wisdom or ignorance they possess and exude. As it is, I think there are natural and necessary REASONS for why we are (or choose to be) certain things, and the reason I cannot consciously judge someone, is because I believe that they acted in accordance with universal law. I do not think a warm heart can fail to give warmth, or a cold heart chills. Likewise, I dont think a man can act ignorantly in an area in which he possesses wisdom, nor can a man act wisely in an area in which he is ignorant. Having given it some consideration, it does not strike me as a reasonable proposition, however popular the belief in it may be. Hence, on an intellectual level, I must reject the notion of free will, not by "free" choice (which seems entirely random to me), but, for a very definite reason; because it does not make sense to me.

If free will is a reality, it is a reality which can only be intuited, and not supported by use of the intellect.

I think all things are ordained by God, so to speak. I think there is a hierarchy of wills in the spiritual universe, and, to the extent that we are operating from the level of our personal egos, we are not at the summit. To imagine that I have free will would be, as I understand it, to imagine that I am omnipotent and omniscient, otherwise, wouldn't my behavior be determined by the level of knowledge and power I possess? So, it seems reasonable to conclude that, if we are to believe in free will, we ought to believe that we, as individuals, are all omniscient and omnipotent beings. This may be the intuitive reality, but, as I have said, it is not intellectually supported.

I do not deny that, at some very real level, I am one with the Infinite Will, but, as I percieve it, this would suggest that my will is determined by God's, not that my will determines the will of God. I think that observance of the former is what was once called humility, while observance of the latter is what was once called hubris.

I think there have been individuals who attained a level of self-mastery that allowed them to transcend themselves (and I think its almost certain that this potential would be strongly highlighted in the birthchart!), and become direct channels for the higher will of God. In a sense, they were then able to direct the will of God, but, only because they were united with God in Spirit, and, so, their purposes were not divergent from that will. So, while, on a certain level, I think it makes sense to say that we are all gods, there is no difference, etc., on another level, I think that someone like Jesus or Buddha had a right to claim authority, and to identify themselves with the power of the one and only truly free and divine will, while, someone like myself, if I claimed free will, would be "taking the lord's name in vain," because I would be making myself one with God, on the physical level of manifestation, while I am only really one with God (at this point in my karmic evolution) on a deeper, spiritual level.

On the other hand, we come to the question of co-creation. What is, and what appears to be, may be closer than we know (or, only as close as we know -- hmm...). Perhaps, by repeating to ourselves, words like "I have free will," or, "I am united with the power and wisdom of God," we can manfiest this as a reality in our lives. Perhaps, simply by affirming such things to ourselves and eachother, we can tap into and access a divine level of wisdom and power. But, I dont think this is a short-cut on the path of karmic evolution; I think it implies that much development has gone before, in order to get us to the point where we are willing to let go of what appears to be, and begin to create what is (or what will be) by the application of our imaginations/wills. To conclude that everyone is capable of doing the same, simply because we ourselves, or someone we know or heard about, can do it, without having been prepared by karma/destiny/fate, seems illogical to me. "Can a man reap what he has not sown?" Again, this is not to say that it is not intuitive. It may be true, but it is unsupported by the nature of appearances (at least, as I have perceived them, or, to be very precise, as they seem to have revealed themselves to me), and any inferences we can make about that nature based on the application of logic alone.

~hsc

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

Posts: 4725
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted February 08, 2006 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
My thoughts..

We have Free Wi11 choice in the sense
that we do not follow our destiny and our path
our Purpose through God, thus further incarnations
that is the Free Will

Once One has realized the God
and purpose, and has sought Truth
and Wisdom
then Free Wi11 is not an issue
you are now working from your soul
trinity
Physical, Mind, HigherSelf, to
OverSoul=God

Our Mission though is from what we have reaped and sowed, each thread weaved into our tapestry, which in essence really
weaves US all back together
as sisters and brothers..

Love and Light and Magic to ALL. ...

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AcousticGod
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From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
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posted February 08, 2006 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
It's too wordy for me to get through.

I do sort of agree with you, though [HSC]. A person isn't generally inclined to act in opposition to their own inherent nature.

Lotus,

Why are you spelling 'will' with two ones?

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

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From: piopolis, quebec canada
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posted February 08, 2006 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
the 11 doorway is open

Salome had something she posted about that!

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Planet_Soul
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From: The Universe
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posted February 09, 2006 12:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Planet_Soul     Edit/Delete Message
~Remembers physics lecture on the big bang theory~

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Devilfish
Knowflake

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From:
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posted February 09, 2006 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Devilfish     Edit/Delete Message
HSC that post really stirred me up inside,
it seemed defeatist to me ..............
to think one has no free will means one is not responsible for his or her own
actions/ thoughts/choices.
i am unique in my dna , my astro map, and my enviroment.every moment of my life i continiously make choices.whether my choices are based upon knowledge or impulse is up to me.the more conscience i become of all paths of decision the better my choices serve me.
good/ evil positive/negative is all relative to an individuals experience.that relativity proves that our reality (consciencness blooming into manifestation)is an individuals unique experience.
omnipotence, we are energy and energy is everywhere!all i know is me & as I experience those things and/or people that become most meaningful to me i become aware that they are meaningful because i can identify with them,in other words i see myself in them.so the more i become aware of myself the more i realize IAM everyone and everything.i am a teacher, a mother, a father, a saint, a sinner, Jesus, the devil, the rapist, the healer, the child, the adult ect. ect. to infinity. does this not prove that I AM, YOU ARE, ALL ARE Gods of there own design.for all i know maybe nothing exsit beyond my own conscience awareness of its exsitense. humility comes from acknowledging that everyone is Lord of his life and accepting that what they choose to do is as it should be ,for them.
please keep in mind that i am ,as i write, sharing my reality with you but whether or not you can see ,you in me ,is a matter of perception.

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Hexxie
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Posts: 401
From: California
Registered: Jul 2005

posted February 09, 2006 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hexxie     Edit/Delete Message
I believe...
All humans have free will. Most are not conscious of this. We get back Karma (good or bad) based on the (free will) choices we make at every moment. Every choice either pushes us up closer to 'God' (higher vibratory rate of angstrom units until we don't need these heavy earth suits anymore) or pulls us further down into the 'dense' human existence for more learning.

I have a friend who thinks bad things just shouldn't happen to good people. He thinks it's 'not fair' and 'why would 'God' do this to good people'. My answer to him was that we are constantly getting back what we give out. Sometimes it's within a matter of minutes that the Karma catches up with us. Other times (this was my explination to my friend, the good guy hehe) it may take lifetimes for the Karma to come full circle back to us! What will you do if something 'bad' comes back to you now? End it!!

A quote from The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe:

quote:
Creatures, I give you yourselves," said the strong, happy voice of Aslan. "I give you the woods, the fruits, the rivers. I give you the stars and I give you myself. The Dumb Beasts whom I have not chosen are yours also. Treat them gently and cherish them but do not go back to their ways lest you cease to be Talking Beasts. For out of them you were taken and into them you can return. Do not so.

I believe that you are right, free will isn't something you can 'grasp' with the intellect. Logic is a tool of the brain. The brain may not be able to comprehend free will, but the soul can!

Free will is a gift and a curse. Ignorance is bliss they say (though I disagree). I think that the more you learn the less you really know. We are all on our own Paths here with the illusion of sometimes walking with others. To get out you must go inward 1st...I posted the following on a different thread. It's from a book (that I recently got as a lovely gift) called Das Energi:

quote:
It's all up to you.
You are completely responsible for your life.
You are the creator.
It's an awesome burden and a great freedom.
It's all up to you.
When you take responsibility for one life, you assume
responsibility for all life.
If you fail to take responsibility for your life, you
do not exist.
Tough, isn't it?
When you finally realize how really tough it is, when
you finally accept life, when you finally find there is
no way out but self-awareness and the incredible pain and
loneliness and responsibility it brings, then and only
then will you begin to be alive, and begin to know the
joy of freedom.


My brainstorm has ended. Lightning words and thunder thoughts

------------------
`Who are you?' said the Caterpillar. This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, `I--I hardly know, sir, just at present-- at least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.'
~Lewis Carroll

:::Libra Sun / 29* Gemini Rising / Aquarius Moon:::

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SunChild
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From: Australia
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posted February 09, 2006 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
Devilfish

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Iqhunk
Knowflake

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From: Chennai
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posted February 10, 2006 06:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Iqhunk     Edit/Delete Message
Have any of you been aware of actual past lives ?
Based on my expereinces, Free Will exists partially in the physical plane and Karma is generated ONLY for Free Will acts with which we self identify. There is no karma when we allow our Higher Self to act for us or we do something without self identification. Higher Selves have 100% Free Will. Our evolutionary purpose is probably to balance and heal our multiple lifelines to evolve enough to turn into a Co Creating Higher Self.

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Devilfish
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posted February 10, 2006 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Devilfish     Edit/Delete Message

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sesame
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posted February 11, 2006 12:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
I believe 100 percent in free will, but let's think outside the square. If you consider we are all one, then who's free will do you speak of? Can your will manifest others' realities? Do you control more than one fate, or just your one, or the one? So in this sense, free will is bound by your perception of who;s will you speak. Linda kinda spoke of using your higher self to ask other higher selfs for favours but to not speak directly to the person. When you bypass someones higher self, you are ignoring their free will in a sense. Maybe they are linked? Maybe your higher self is the middle entity to the one? In any case, your free will isn't necessarilly bound by your body/mind/soul, but to everything. To try to use your will against everything would be impossible as you are everything. It's like if God chose not to exist then no one would know she ever existed. So... there's that.

...

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sesame
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From: Oz
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posted February 11, 2006 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
The other thing I wanted to say is that I believe there are limitations or rules to your free will. One mentioned above concerns your higher self, but more powerfully who you are. Do you comprehend your divine nature, or do you prefer to learn off imperfect humanity? If you're learning, then you will always be confined by this mentality. If you are divine, then the world is your oyster. To know is to be powerful. Imagine being a yogi. Do you think they think about karma? they don't seem to experience relationships and such because I think they realise karma is a tool. It allows you to peak at your evolutionary level, but it is just a tool. You can step outside of it, but then you create new karma, or as the yogis, you can just experience existance. Us Western people live so much in the material world. To remove that is to lose who we are. Yogis are beyond this but do you think that's boring? Are they bored? They have chosen to exist and breath and to tap the higher concsiousness of the planet, something I think TV would dliate.

...

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sesame
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From: Oz
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posted February 11, 2006 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Society creates he bounds of who you are. People like Jesus and Buddha are beyond society. They are their true selves. Jesus seems to me like someone who was dissapointed but accepting of humanity. He knew what was going to happen to him, but he was looking for the higher purpose - to try to reach people thousands of years later and get them to teach each other like family. We are family, but we're so primitive. Our material nature makes things so difficult to truly exist with ultimate free will but that too is a choice. If you choose to be a yogi, then best of luck. You you choose to wake up on a sunday morning and watch MTV then that's great too. Do you need to be a yogi to fully appreciate existance? I think not.

OK, a question (if you're still with me). If you wanted to exploit your ultimate free will, then what would you choose? That is the question.

Heaps of Love,
Dean.

------------------
Always think compassion... The Dalai Lama
My numerology program based on "Star Signs" by Linda Goodman
Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!)

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted February 13, 2006 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Free will is an illusion created by the imaginary distinction between Me, Myself, and I.

I will surely take responsibility for Myself,
but who will take responsibility for ME?

Who wills must first be conscious.
Who is conscious is conscious of Something.
That "Something" determines the nature and shape of consciousness,
just as light only appears in the form of the objects it touches.

Devilfish -

"i am unique in my dna , my astro map, and my enviroment."

Yes, and your very uniqueness determines your fate. If you were not different, you would make the same choices as everyone else. You choose according to your tastes, which are unique, and are what you experience as You.

"every moment of my life i continiously make choices."

Choices based on information and impetus, software and hardware, like a computer. Just as a computer takes time to process information, and make selections based on circumstantial criteria, you take time to process the experience of choosing. But, you cannot choose your choice any more than you can choose your thoughts before you think them.

"whether my choices are based upon knowledge or impulse is up to me."

So you say. But, I would be interested to know, on what grounds (((((on what information or impulse))))) do you decide whether to base your choices on information or impulse?

"the more conscience i become of all paths of decision the better my choices serve me.
good/ evil positive/negative is all relative to an individuals experience.that relativity proves that our reality (consciencness blooming into manifestation)is an individuals unique experience"

That relativity, also known as Subjectivity, is precisely what detemines our dependency upon the ever elusive object of consciousness. You are unique, and you make unique choices, because your point of view is one of a kind. You are not percieving what any other sentient being in existence is or has ever percieved. No one has ever been faced with the same choices, because you (that is, your perception/what you are perceiving) are an element of every choice you make. You make it because of who you are. And, if you were to choose to change yourself, you would change who you are because of who you are! You would not initiate this change, but would fulfill the law of your destiny. All creation is dynamic. Things are already in motion. You can never act, but only react. You are not able to influence it from the outside because there is no outside! Your ego requires the illusion of freedom. Look, Listen, Feel, your undeniable interconnection to all things. How can a thread be free?

"omnipotence, we are energy and energy is everywhere!all i know is me & as I experience those things and/or people that become most meaningful to me i become aware that they are meaningful because i can identify with them,in other words i see myself in them."

Exactly. What you see is DETERMINED by your point of view. How can you be free? You MUST see only yourself, a reflection of a reflection of a reflection, ad infinitum. Will you call this hall of mirrors freedom?

"so the more i become aware of myself the more i realize IAM everyone and everything.i am a teacher, a mother, a father, a saint, a sinner, Jesus, the devil, the rapist, the healer, the child, the adult ect. ect. to infinity."

Yes. As you become self-aware, you transcend, enlarge upon, and re-evaluate your former perspective. You grow to encompass a little more of what you were formerly unconscious of.

"does this not prove that I AM, YOU ARE, ALL ARE Gods of there own design?"

I dont see how it could. All this proves is that you can have no foreknowledge of your destiny, since your destiny is tied to the widening of your perspective, and, if you were to preconceive your own destiny (or future), there would be nothing (no present) to transcend. You would have to purposely induce a dream of ignorance. But, if you did this, you would only be determined by your ignorance, rather than your knowledge.

Its like designing a course of study for yourself. If you wanted to design, let's say, a 4th grade course, you would have to be, at least, a 5th grade student, else, how could you see fit to design the course? But, this would imply that your destiny in this life is unnecessary and without true purpose, because you already know all this stuff, else how could you have designed it? If you are to learn anything new, your destiny must be mapped by some intelligence exceeding your own.

"for all i know maybe nothing exsit beyond my own conscience awareness of its exsitense."

And, for all you know, you, your consciousness, all you are conscious of, and all the choices you make, are determined by what exists beyond your own conscious awareness of it.

"humility comes from acknowledging that everyone is Lord of his life..."

Humility is thinking men and women have more power over their lives than God? Forgive me, but, isn't this the very definition of "hubris" ("the pride of putting oneself before God"). "Call no man or woman Lord, for there is one Lord, and that is THE LORD, thy God."

"and accepting that what they choose to do is as it should be ,for them."

I believe it cannot be any other way. They will choose as their understanding and ignorance dictate. And whether they choose based on ignorance or understanding, the only possible result is enlightenment/integration in the area that is needful.

"please keep in mind that i am ,as i write, sharing my reality with you but whether or not you can see ,you in me ,is a matter of perception."

Dito.

~hsc

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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From: 11/6/78 11:38am Boston, MA
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posted February 13, 2006 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."

- Albert Einstein

"In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity."

- Baruch Spinoza

"Everything happens through immutable laws, ...everything is necessary... There are, some persons say, some events which are necessary and others which are not. It would be very comic that one part of the world was arranged, and the other were not; that one part of what happens had to happen and that another part of what happens did not have to happen. If one looks closely at it, one sees that the doctrine contrary to that of destiny is absurd; but there are many people destined to reason badly; others not to reason at all others to persecute those who reason."

- Voltaire

"The first dogma which I came to disbelieve was that of free will. It seemed to me that all notions of matter were determined by the laws of dynamics and could not therefore be influenced by human wills."

- Bertrand Russell

"You will say that I feel free. This is an illusion, which may be compared to that of the fly in the fable, who, upon the pole of a heavy carriage, applauded himself for directing its course. Man, who thinks himself free, is a fly who imagines he has power to move the universe, while he is himself unknowingly carried along by it."

- Baron d'Hobach

"There but for the grace of my determinants go I."

- Peter Gill

"Whether or not we have personality disturbances, or the ability to overcome deficiencies of early environment, is a matter of luck. It is important to keep this in mind, for people almost always forget it, with consequences in human intolerance and suffering that are incalculable."

- John Hospers

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Devilfish
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posted February 15, 2006 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Devilfish     Edit/Delete Message

maybe i interpert these words wrong.
freewill = the act of choosing according to ones conscience.
responsibility= being accountable for ones choices & conduct.

you said :
your very uniqueness determines your fate. If you were not different, you would make the same choices as everyone else. You choose according to your tastes, which are unique,"
-------------------------------------------
to me this sounds like free will, because im NOT choosing like everyone else, but am choosing for my unique will.
---------------------------------
you said :
But, you cannot choose your choice any more than you can choose your thoughts before you think them.
-----------------------------------
i cannot choose what thoughts ener my mind true but i can choose which to dwell on.when a thought enters my mind i play out the conclusion of it then i examine whether or not it is accordance to my conscience .the result of this examination becomes my choice to reject said thought or accept said thought.
you asked:
I would be interested to know, on what grounds (((((on what information or impulse))))) do you decide whether to base your choices on information or impulse?
----------------------------
by impulse i meant emotion.by emotion i mean energy in motion.when i think about a thought as explained above i am basing my choice off of information.when i react on pure emotion without considering conseqeunce i am at my most primal , and am choosing based on impulse.combining my impulses with intellectual examination provides me with the best possible choice.

relative= as in a thing having a relation to or connection with or necessary dependence on another thing.........

subjectivity =characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states

it is true that we are subjective beings ,yes,but to pull back from this subjectivity in order to widen our perception,is that not rising above self imposed limitation in order to free our mind from preconceptions?
if we percieve something as bad we reject that any good can be within it.likewise if we percieve something as good we cannot see any bad in it BUT what if we judge a thing as neutral ,as containing the possibilities of both, then are we not looking outside of self in order to align our thoughts within, as well as without,the self?
you said : Look, Listen, Feel, your undeniable interconnection to all things. How can a thread be free?
----------------------------------
this is a truth, all are connected but in order for unity to exsist there has to be individuality present as well.if there is two sides to every coin then slavery is the opposite of free will.now i will admit every body has to seve somebody but who they choose to seve proves ones freewill.choosing what one sacrafices him/herself for is the ultimate freedom.

you said:
What you see is DETERMINED by your point of view. How can you be free? You MUST see only yourself, a reflection of a reflection of a reflection, ad infinitum. Will you call this hall of mirrors freedom?
---------------------------------
i am able to choose to narrow or expand my perception, and do so based upon the views/info. of those i encounter.
just because i am reflected in my interconnectedness, as is all energy at all times, does not mean it detracts from my freedom of choice.what i choose to see, as in what i limit myself to viewing, or what i further expose myself to veiwing,is my freedom.
----------------------------------------
you said:
All this proves is that you can have no foreknowledge of your destiny, since your destiny is tied to the widening of your perspective, and, if you were to preconceive your own destiny (or future), there would be nothing (no present) to transcend. You would have to purposely induce a dream of ignorance. But, if you did this, you would only be determined by your ignorance, rather than your knowledge.
-------------------------
i must ask you then , what do you believe about God,if you apply this to me ,as in this invalidates my opinion that we are Gods of our own design, then what makes God different is he/she/it not subject to the above statement?

------------------------------------
you said:
And, for all you know, you, your consciousness, all you are conscious of, and all the choices you make, are determined by what exists beyond your own conscious awareness of it.
-------------------------
i agree!


you said:
Humility is thinking men and women have more power over their lives than God? Forgive me, but, isn't this the very definition of "hubris" ("the pride of putting oneself before God"). "Call no man or woman Lord, for there is one Lord, and that is THE LORD, thy God."
-------------------------------
if we are speaking in biblical terms may i point out that the old testament was externalizing God, the nt internalized God.
your quote says to me call no person outside of self YOUR God.
"with God all things are possible"
"Christ in you the hope of glory"
"if you have seen me you have seen the father"
i truely believe Christ was teaching man to quit looking outside themselves and start looking inside the self first.
the greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart mind and soul,& the second is like unto the first to love your neighbor as thyself, ALL commandments hang upon these two.
"beloved let us love one another for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God he that loveth not knoweth not God for God is love,let us therefore love."
i believe we can not love anyone until we learn to love and value ourselves first.when we love ourselves we begin to love others as ourselves because we see ourselves in them through true empathy.a man is made up of all energy not one not two or a few ALL energy.
this knowing of self is linked to the intimacy of knowing God.that is why we are called the sons and daughters of God.it is our divine heritage to love and be loved.
i am no better or worse then anyone that has ever lived,and yet i am a valuable soul ,as is everyone i meet.to think one is worthy of more or less is disrespectful,what right have i to judge a man unless i have the very same heart as the one i judge,this is a humbling thought.
the humble does not place himself above others in importance,the proud does not place himself beneath others, unity is found in equality & the two walk side by side.

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Lialei
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posted February 16, 2006 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lialei     Edit/Delete Message
Unity

Every moment are we not in the middle space between the two; freedom/restriction,
will/fate? Is there one or either?
Or is it beyond us and of us?
Are we returning or becoming?
Perhaps, in this realm anyway, we are
both carnal and spiritual...forever striving for spiritual freedom in lue of carnal repression.
I believe we are as Free as our acceptance opens us to Be.
Thought is the most potent of Energies that will either burden us in its own captivity...or soar us to embrace a freeing Destiny....that is forever a gift from beyond us, just waiting to be realized as within as well and opened.

We are Islands in Sea.
We are erected; Alone...willful.
Yet, without the Sea surrounding us...we would be seen as the mass of land we are~ connected to a vastness of land far reaching our Vision.

If we may discover we are both; All... while One unto ourselves simultaneously...perhaps we could relax within that and simply BE.
From that we are allowing God to flow through us....as we are Shining the Uniqueness of our Souls as well.
I see no seperation.

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lotusheartone
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From: piopolis, quebec canada
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posted February 16, 2006 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Hmmm, Free Wi11..

Once you have connected with your higher-sself to over-Soul..with God
you have now realized why you have come to Earth School
once this is realized and you know why you are here, and what will bring you to clear karma..
thus, the free will is gone
if you choose to live your life according to your destiny, whatever that may involve..
acceptance of who you are and what you have done and what you will do..

this is where free will comes in

you can choose to walk away from enlightenment and God

THAT is your free will choice...


ignorance is bliss, yes in many ways

Knowledge is responsiblity...

Love and Light and Magic to ALL...

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Love
Knowflake

Posts: 42
From: Canada
Registered: Feb 2006

posted February 18, 2006 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Love     Edit/Delete Message
Read the book "Conversations with God" for an excellent collection of ideas on free will versus destiny. I don't know that any of it can be completely explained.

All of life is based upon perception anyhow, so maybe how you perceieve events as occuring or having certain expectations of how events could or should occur will in fact be reflected in your experience...

I can't say enough, however, about the book.
Conversations with God by Neale Donalad Walsch.

Even if you disagree with everything the man writes it will make you think (hard), evaluate and possibly re-evaluate.


Love xo

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sesame
Moderator

Posts: 1215
From: Oz
Registered: Nov 2003

posted February 18, 2006 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Right on Love

Welcome to LL!

Dean.

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valcap
Knowflake

Posts: 16
From:
Registered: Jan 2005

posted February 24, 2006 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for valcap     Edit/Delete Message
Ironically,I think you must first completely lose intellect in order to approach the question honestly!

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 4725
From: piopolis, quebec canada
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posted February 24, 2006 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
You have to lose EGO. ...

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sesame
Moderator

Posts: 1215
From: Oz
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posted February 25, 2006 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Become the empty container...

Dean.

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fayte.m
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Posts: 3320
From: ~out looking for Schrodinger's cat~
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posted February 25, 2006 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fayte.m     Edit/Delete Message
Know Thyself Archives
Search others for their virtues, thyself for thy vices. -- Benjamin Franklin.

Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. -- Eric Hoffer

So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another. -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

I define comfort as self-acceptance. When we finally learn that self-care begins and ends with ourselves, we no longer demand sustenance and happiness from others.
-- Jennifer Louden

Look in the mirror. The face that pins you with its double gaze reveals a chastening secret. -- Diane Ackerman

Every time you don't follow your inner guidance,you feel a loss of energy, loss of power a sense of spiritual deadness. -- Shakti Gawain

The most important thing is to be whatever you are without shame. -- Rod Steiger

You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don't try.
-- Beverly Sills

Blessed are they who heal you of self-despisings. Of all services which can be done to man, I know of none more precious. -- William Hale White

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool. -- Richard Feynman

You are in control of your life. Don't ever forget that. You are what you are because of
the conscious and subconscious choices you have made. -- Barbara Hall

Cherish your own emotions and never undervalue them. -- Robert Henri

Each person's only hope for improving his lot rests on recognizing the true nature of his or her basic personality, surrendering to it, and becoming who he or she really is.
-- Sheldon Kopp

What I am is good enough if I would only be it openly. -- Carl Rogers

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Let the world know you as you are, not as you think you should be. -- Fannie Brice

Men and women are not prisoners of fate, but only prisoners of their own minds.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

It is the habitual thought that frames itself into our life. It affects us even more than our intimate social relations do. Our confidential friends have not so much to do in shaping our lives as the thoughts which we harbor. -- J.W. Teal

Kwitchyerbellyakin. -- Irish saying

Take pride in how far you have come, have faith in how far you can go. -- Anonymous

We know what we are, but know not what we may become. -- William Shakespeare

You grow up the day you have your first real laugh - at yourself. -- Ethel Barrymore

If you are all wrapped up in yourself, you are overdressed. -- Kate Halverson

At some point your heart will tell itself what to do. -- Achaan Chah

Be honorable with yourself if you wish to associate with honorable people.
-- Welsh Proverb

Enlarge your consciousness. If your consciousness is small, you will experience smallness in every department of your life. -- Robert Pante

We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. -- Anais Nin

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-- William Shakespeare

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. -- Aristotle

The shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world, is to be in reality what we would appear to be. -- Socrates

To thine own-self be true;
And it must follow, as the night the day.
Thou can'st not then be false to any man.
-- Hamlet. Act I. Sc. 3

Look well into thyself; there is a source of strength which will always spring up if thou wilt always look there. -- Marcus Aurelius

It may be all right to be content with what you have; never with what you are.
-- B.C. Forbes

Some say that my teaching is nonsense.
Others call it lofty but impractical.
But to those who have looked inside themselves,
this nonsense makes perfect sense.
And to those who put it into practice,
this loftiness has roots that go deep.

I have just three things to teach:
simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and in thoughts,
you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.

-- Tao Te Ching

He that respects himself is safe from others;
He wears a coat of mail that none can pierce.
-- Henry Wordsworth Longfellow

Seek out that particular mental attribute which makes you feel most deeply and vitally alive, along with which comes the inner voice which says, 'This is the real me,' and when you have found that attitude, follow it. -- William James

Man is what he believes. -- Anton Chekhov

Never think you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. People will take you very much at your own reckoning. -- Anthony Trollope

I thank God for my handicaps, for through them, I have found myself, my work and my God. -- Helen Keller

Everyone should carefully observe which way his heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength. -- Hasidic Saying

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.
-- Carl Jung

The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within. -- Mahatma Gandhi

When we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inwards and examine ourselves. -- Confucius

No bird soars too high, if he soars on his own wings. -- William Blake

The more things a man is ashamed of, the more respectable he is.
-- George Bernard Shaw

No one can give you better advice than yourself. -- Cicero

The most common sort of lie is the one uttered to one's self. -- Nietzsche

An old man sat outside the walls of a great city.

When travelers approached, they would ask the old man, "What kind of people live in this city?"

And the old man would answer, "What kind of people live in the place where you came from?"

If the travelers answered, "Only bad people live in the place where we came from," the old man would reply, "Continue on; you will find only bad people here."

But if the travelers answered, "Good people live in the place where we came from," then the old man would say, "Enter, for here, too, you will find only good people."

-- Yiddish folk tale

Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power. -- Tao Te Ching

If you have a skeleton in your closet, take it out and dance with it.
-- Carolyn MacKenzie

People often say that this or that person has not yet found him or herself. But the self is not something that one finds. It is something one creates. -- Thomas Szasz

There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. -- Aldous Huxley

I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.
-- Winston Churchill

People travel to wonder at the height of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long courses of rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars; and they pass by themselves without wondering. -- St. Augustine

No one can be caught in places he doesn't visit. ---Danish Proverb

People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

He knew that insofar as one denies what is, one is possessed by what is not, the compulsions, the fantasies, the terrors that flock to fill the void. -- Ursula K. LeGuin, The Lathe of Heaven

I would rather be the man who bought the Brooklyn Bridge than the one who sold it.
-- Will Rogers

Don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got. -- Betty Ford

Do you see the world as it is, or do you see the world as you are? -- anonymous

Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him -- Bible, Proverbs 26:12

The temptation to moralize is strong; it is emotionally satisfying to have enemies rather than problems, to seek out culprits rather than the flaws in the system. God knows it is emotionally satisfying to be righteous with that righteousness that nourishes itself on the blood of sinners.

But God also knows that what is emotionally satisfying can be spiritually devastating.

-- William Sloane Coffin, The Courage to Love

Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.
--Anonymous

The graveyards are full of indispensable men. -- Charles De Gaulle

Love not what you are, but what you may become. -- Cervantes

Do not attempt to do a thing unless you are sure of yourself; but do not relinquish it simply because someone else is not sure of you. -- Stewart E. White

The way life treats you is a merciless mirror image of your attitude toward life.
-- Anonymous.

They all laughed. I drew their pictures and they asked for copies and I handed them out as if they were my tickets to the show. In the Navy Yard, I could drink with men because I worked with men; in the Parkview, I could drink with men because I drew their pictures. The world was a grand confusion. Finally, when I was bleary, when my hand wouldn't do what I wanted it to do, I went home. I would lie alone in the dark, feeling that I was a character in a story that had lost its plot. -- Pete Hamill, A Drinking Life

They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.
-- Job 21:18

Maturity begins to grow when you can sense your conern for others outweighing your concern for yourself. -- John MacNaughton

If you want to test your memory try to remember what you were worrying about a year ago today. -- E. Joseph Cossman

A man's greatest strength develops at the point where he overcomes his greatest weakness. -- Elmer G. Letterman

Be not merely good; be good for something. -- Henry David Thoreau

We can never be certain of our courage till we have faced danger.
~ Duc Francois de La Rouchefoucauld

Freedom from desire leads to inner peace. -- Lao-Tzu

As long as you think you're green, you'll grow. As soon as you think you're ripe, you'll rot. -- Scott Horton (courtesy of Nicole Smith.)

Once to every man and nation comes the moment to decide. -- James Russell Lowell

The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. -- Anonymous

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
-- Anonymous

Signs of Emotional Security

1. Ability to deal constructively with reality.
2. Capacity to adapt to change.
3. Few symptoms of tension and anxiety.
4. Ability to find more satisfaction in giving than receiving.
5. Capacity to consistently relate to others with mutual satisfaction and helpfulness.
6. Ability to direct hostile energy into constructive outlets.
7. Capacity to love.
-- Dr. William Menninger

HOW TO BE PERFECTLY MISERABLE.

1. Think about yourself.
2. Talk about yourself.
3. Use "I" as often as possible.
4. Mirror yourself continually in the opinion of others.
5. Listen greedily to what people say about you.
6. Expect to be appreciated.
7. Be suspicious.
8. Be jealous and envious.
9. Be sensitive to slights.
10. Never forgive a criticism
11. Trust no one but yourself.
12. Insist on consideration and respect.
13. Demand agreement with your own views on everything.
14. Sulk if people are not grateful to you for favors shown them.
15. Never forget a service you may have rendered.
16. Be on the lookout for a good time for yourself.
17. Shirk your duties if you can.
18. Do as little as possible for others.
19. Love yourself supremely.
20. Be selfish.

This recipe is guaranteed to be infallible.

-- Gospel Herald.

And a hymn for Easter, a celebration of mankind's redemption from selfishness.

Eternal Mind the Potter is,
And thought the' eternal clay;
The hand the fashions is divine,
His works pass not away.
Man is the noblest work of God,
His beauty, power and grace,
Immortal; perfect as his Mind
Reflected face to face.

God could not make imperfect man
His model infinite;
Unhallowed thought He could not plan,
Love's work and Love must fit.
Life, Truth and Love the pattern make,
He is the perfect heir;
The clouds of sense roll back, and show
The form divinely fair.

God's will is done; His kingdom come;
The Potter's work is plain.
The longing to good and true
Has brought the light again.
And man does stand as God's own child,
The image of His love.
Let gladness ring from every tongue,
And heaven and earth approve.
-- Mary Alice Dayton

Every great mistake has a halfway moment, a split second when it can be recalled and, perhaps, remedied. -- Pearl Buck

There is no satisfaction that can compare with looking back across the years and finding you've grown in self-control, judgment, generosity, and unselfishness.
-- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity. -- Cicero, De Oratore

The goal in life is to die young -- as late as possible.
-- Ashley Montagu, Anthropologist

Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Werner von Braun

You will find poetry nowhere unless you bring some with you. -- Joseph Joubert

When you are looking in the mirror, you are looking at the problem. But, remember, you are also looking at the solution. -- Anonymous

God holds each of us by a string. When we sin, we cut the string. But God ties it up again, making a knot. Each time our wrongdoing cuts the string, God ties another knot drawing us up closer to Him. -- Meister Eckhart

Think. Believe. Dream. Dare.
-- Walt Disney's "Four Most Important Words."

Still I am learning. -- Michelangelo, on his death bed

I am obliged to exercise unlimited forgiveness because, if I did not forgive, I should thus act as if I were not guilty in the same way as the other has been guilty with regard to me.

I must forgive the lies directed against myself, because my own life has been so many times blotted by lies.
I must forgive the lovelessness, the hatred, the slander, the fraud, the arrogance which I encounter, since I myself have so often lacked love, hated, slandered, defrauded, and been arrogant.

I must forgive without noise or fuss.
-- Albert Schweitzer

He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Love work.
Turn a deaf ear to slander.
Be considerate in correcting others.
Do not be taken up by trifles.
Do not resent plain speaking.
Meet offenders half-way.
Be thorough in thought.
Have an open mind.
Do your duty without grumbling.
-- Cicero

The accusations really say more about the condition of the accusers than that of the accused. -- Roderick MacLeish

Take time to laugh.
It is the music of the soul.

Take time to think.
It is the source of power.

Take time to play.
It is the source of perpetual youth.

Take time to read.
It is the fountain of wisdom.

Take time to pray.
It is the greatest power on Earth.

Take time to love and be loved.
It is a God-given privilege.

Take time to be friendly.
It is the road to happiness.

Take time to give.
It is too short a day to be selfish.

Take time to work.
It is the price of success.

-- Anonymous

Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others. -- Anonymous

No conflict is so severe as his who labors to subdue himself. -- Thomas A. Kempis

It is what it is. -- Tony Sasso, Marblehead Town Adminstrator

You grieve you learn
You choke you learn
You laugh you learn
You choose you learn
You pray you learn
You ask you learn
You live you learn
-- Alanis Morissette, from her album "Jagged Little Pill"

The remarkable thing is that we really do love our neighbors as ourselves; we do unto others as we do unto ourselves. We hate others when we hate oursleves. We are tolerant toward others when we tolerate ourselves. We forgive others when we forgive ourselves. It is not love of self but hatred of self which is at the root of the troubles that afflict our world. -- Eric Hoffer: U.S. Writer

Most of the shadows of life are caused by standing in our own sunshine.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

If you live only for yourself you always in immediate danger of being bored to death with the repetition of your own views and interests. -- Walter Beran Wolfe

He who believes in nobody knows that he himself is not to be trusted.
-- Berthold Auerbach

The mind may wander, but let not the senses wander with it. If the senses wander where the mind takes them, one is done for. -- Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

Posts: 4725
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted February 25, 2006 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Wow! Thanks for posting that Fayte..
Awesome!

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