posted September 23, 2006 12:15 AM         

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted August 29, 2006 09:27 AM
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(***Part of post omitted by Eleanore so it doesn't seem like someone is being dragged into the conversation involuntarily on another forum. Sorry if this seems absurd but I don't want to accidentally crush the eggshells ... which may be in my imagination so no one get offended here either, please ...***)

If you wish to find the truth and have God/Allah's pleasure and support in it, then avoid being negative and control your temper and anger. If you cannot stop anger, at least do not show it. When you do this, you will please God/Allah and disappoint the devil. You will begin to educate your ego and straighten and shorten your path. Anger is a result and a sign of the ego not being under control, like a mean wild animal untied and uncaged. As you hold your temper, it is as if you put a bridle on its head and barriers around it. You begin then to tame it, teach it how to behave, to obey, so that it cannot hurt others or itself (because it is a part of you).

When this discipline reflects from you, revealing someone who can control his temper and hold his anger, your adversary will be calmed. You will not be reacting to his provocations. You will not be punishing him or responding to his negativity, but ignoring it. This is more effective than punishing him. He may be led to see the reality of his acts, to realize what is fair, and to confess his faults.

What the Seeker Needs

Ibn Arabi, 1200

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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Eleanore
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posted August 29, 2006 05:28 PM
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juniperb
Thank you for sharing that!
Are you familiar with Eckhart Tolle? I recently read one of his books, "A New Earth" and he speaks much of the same ideas in it.
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TINK
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posted August 29, 2006 05:33 PM
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Reminded me of "Keep you temper. You'll get used to it in time." from Alice in Wonderland.
Wise men all around.

juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted August 30, 2006 08:02 AM
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This not being divisive, I didn`t expect to see it again

wouldn`t a conversation between the three be Enlightening??

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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TINK
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posted August 30, 2006 08:39 AM
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It might be a repeatative conversation. But a good one. I sure wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall.

It's also extremely Steinerish - particularly reminiscent of the will-strengthening exercises from "A Modern Path of Initiation". Which, in turn, are very similiar to the Buddhist means of opening the Chakras. Isn't it wonderful to watch such seemingly diverse people, from various points of the globe and various moments in time, all find their way to the same mountain summit?

Balance, harmony and a choir of wise voices singing in tune. Makes me all giggly inside.

Eleanore
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posted August 30, 2006 04:08 PM
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Ah, Steiner. Thank you, Tink. Anything written by him is worthwhile and, yes, his ideas go along the same path. It's not an easy path, to be sure, and requires real work on yourself and not much trying to "fix" everyone else. Now if everyone could do that, at their own pace and in their own way, mind you ... what a wonderful world this would really be. Just my idealism carrying me away there ... erm ... hope no one takes offense to that, either.

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TINK
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posted August 30, 2006 04:58 PM
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Uh huh.
His take on what exactly Jesus was referring to when he mentioned "the meek" is awfully appropriate. And demanding too. I've been thinking about it today.

It's a hard row to hoe, Lord knows .... but what else is there really?

Thinking about these wise men .. and others ... reminded me of one of my favorite poems.

Defenseless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

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juniperb
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posted August 30, 2006 06:19 PM
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tink, I have searched the cobwebs of my memory for Steiners insights on Jesus`s reference to "meekness". No can do ... care to share?
Are you or Eleanore considering a Waldorf School for the young uns?

Thanks for sharing some Auden

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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juniperb
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posted August 30, 2006 06:36 PM
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Mirandee, I am still processing your post and attempting to make a connection between Seeker and Saint.
The fault is mine by not posting the title of the Work first rather than last.

What the Seeker Needs.

I am a Seeker, nothing more, nothing less.

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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salome
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posted August 30, 2006 06:44 PM
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Waldorf Homeschooling
In the first seven years of life, the child seeks to see that the world is a place of goodness, and will learn primarily by imitation and through activity. In the next developmental phase (through puberty) the child most naturally learns through beauty, from adults who merit being authorities. (This is why storytelling and art are employed as teaching vehicles throughout the elementary curriculum.) Finally, entering into the third developmental stage, and ready at last for true independent thinking: the teenager naturally begins a quest for truth.

"I am beginning to suspect all elaborate and special systems of education. They seem to me to be built upon the supposition that every child is a kind of idiot who must be taught to think. Whereas, if the child is left to himself, he will think more and better, if less showily. Let him go and come freely, let him touch real things and combine his impressions for himself, instead of sitting indoors at a little round table, while a sweet-voiced teacher suggests that he build a stone wall with his wooden blocks, or make a rainbow out of strips of colored paper, or plant straw trees in bead flower-pots. Such teaching fills the mind with artificial associations that must be got rid of, before the child can develop independent ideas out of actual experience."

- Anne Sullivan

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TINK
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posted August 30, 2006 08:24 PM
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As schools go I like what I've seen of Waldorf. They're charter schools though so there are differences. There's only one in my state and it has a very good reputation. Unfortunately, at nearly 10,000 a year for tuition I'm not sure the Bambino will be attending. The high tuition is the one thing about Waldorf I don't like.
I'll find something about the Sermon on the Mount for you Juni.

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Eleanore
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posted August 30, 2006 09:38 PM
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I'd love to be a fly on the wall if that conversation ever happened ... or happens, juniperb. (*edited* to add ... omg, I didn't even realize that Tink said the same!)
And yes, hubby and I are very heavily considering a Waldorf school.
The cost seems prohibitive but it doesn't start off at $10,000 from kindergarden ... at least not at the schools we've looked in to. They start somewhere at about $2/3000 a year and work their way up to the full amount at, if I recall correctly, middle school. It all rather depends on where we choose to settle down after hubby's enlistment is up.
Either way, that's a lot of money ... but they do offer tuition assistance. I'd rather send him there than anywhere else, regardless of the sacrifices we might have to make to do it.
Otherwise, salome's got my second choice. I'm not afraid of homeschooling my child(ren), especially not with the spirit of the Waldorf schools guiding me.
I just can't imagine putting my child into a public school. Been there, not doing that to him.
We considered Montessori for a while but completely disagree with their methods and theories. So Waldorf, one way or another, it is.
*Edited* to add: Tink, are you sure they're all charter schools? I've looked into a few and some are charter but most are not ... unless I'm not recalling correctly. Btw, congratulations on a boy! I want to bombard you with questions ... but I won't ... at least, not here.

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TINK
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posted August 30, 2006 10:24 PM
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No, I don't think they all are, Eleanore. Just the ones in my area. The one closest to me charges $9450 for grades 1-8. The least expensive is 3 half days of nursery school at $4100. Plus several hundred dollars in assorted fees of course. Oy. I haven't looked into tuition assitance but I know of a family of 6 who survive on around 60,000 a year who were denied any help. Honestly, the only complaints I've heard about our local Waldorf school is the sense some have that only the wealthy, who can afford the full tuition, and the poor, who are given assistance, are students. The middle class seem to have been inadvertantly shut out.
But I feel the same way about public schools, especially in the younger grades.

We have a Montessori school here as well. I don't know much about them. What did you uncover?

Ask away. You've got my address.

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TINK
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posted August 30, 2006 11:17 PM
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Juni ~
Basically, and I'm oversimplyfing terribly I suppose, he claimed that "meek" referred to one of the many tasks given an initiate -that no ego-driven, hurtful words escape his mouth. Nothing may be said out of anger, jealousy, spite etc.

Mirandee made mention of Christ "losing his temper". It might very well look that way from our point of view. It is, after all, the sort of thing we do on a daily basis. But the motives of the Wise are quite different. He didn't lose emotional control, in other words. If something he said hurt someone - and I admit fully there were plenty of instances where he stirred someone's pot - he did so always with sublime compassion and precise calculation. We must learn to do the same.

But I'll go through my books and look for Steiner's exact words.

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juniperb
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posted August 31, 2006 08:57 AM
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Lovely recap tink!
There was a Teaching function and purpose to all Jesus said and did.

He clearly shows us the difference between Righteous anger and self - righteous anger

May we learn to discern

Thanks!

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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TINK
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posted August 31, 2006 10:08 AM
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Yes Even the seemingly small and inconsequential things had purpose and function.
'Course the catch 22 for most of us is the inability to know exactly what should be said and when to say it. This requires a level of perception I know I don't generally possess. So the only other option is to tread veeery carefully ... and sometimes, let's face it, only a "gentle silence", as Steiner called it, will do. Which brings me back full circle to what Eleanore said ... "It's not an easy path, to be sure, and requires real work on yourself and not much trying to "fix" everyone else."

They are guided unto gentle speech; they are guided unto the path of the Glorious One.

Sura 22-24

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Eleanore
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posted August 31, 2006 10:35 PM
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It's made me so happy to read what you guys have posted here, Tink, juniperb and salome. I'm sure you know the feeling ... that warm-bubble-growing-knowing-you're-not-alone feeling that I just love!
Here's one I keep in mind and I believe I read it in one of Steiner's books though I haven't been able to locate it:

"Before the eyes can see, they must be incapable of tears.
Before the ear can hear, it must have lost its sensitiveness.
Before the voice can speak in the presence of the Masters, it must have lost the power to wound.
Before the soul can stand in the presence of the Masters, its feet must be washed in the blood of the heart."

Also love this one:
"For all forces strive forward into the widths,
To live and work here and there;
Against this from every side the stream
of the world narrows and hinders
and carries us forth with it.
In this inner storm and external strife
the spirit perceives a barely understood word;
From the power that binds all people
that those free themselves who overcome themselves."
- Goethe, "The Mysteries", taken from Steiner's, "The Christian Mystery"

******

Oh yeah, Montessori schools, Tink ...
I couldn't find the exact link I wanted but this one pretty much covers it: http://www.awsna.org/awsna-faq2.html
I realize the comparison is from a Waldorf source and perspective but I have a friend who worked as a Montessori educator for a while and from what she's told me about her work, it seems right on. I completely agree with the Waldorf method, though, so I might be a bit biased.
There are a number of books that I can personally recommend, "The Child's Changing Consciousness", "The Spirit of the Waldorf School", and "The Education of the Child".
I found a great website once that offers Waldorf homeschooling lesson plans and you can actually view some of the sample lessons on line to see for yourself the subject matter involved which I thought was great. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find it again.
Sorry to toot Steiner's horn so much but he is sincerely one of my heroes.

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Eleanore
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posted August 31, 2006 10:48 PM
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(forgot something)
But yes, I've heard the same about shutting out the middle class, Tink. It's rather sad, although I understand that running a school like that is pretty expensive. I may be wrong, but I believe charter schools are more expensive than the others. It's supposed to be very difficult to not only start a Waldorf school, but to get it established for a few years due to way the curriculum is set up and that hikes up the cost of tuition. I remember reading that Steiner did not see anything wrong with paying a tuition to go to school ... neither, do I, frankly, considering our other options. I just am not quite sure why they don't offer at least some help to middle class families. Maybe it's time for an e-mail? I know you have to apply a couple of years before you expect your child to be ready for it so maybe I will start asking the big questions ... soon. First have to get moved overseas and then, when we finally settle on a place to live for good, lol, I'll start making inquiries.
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salome
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posted September 01, 2006 01:10 AM
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Waldorf Homeschoolers
I say spend all the time you can with your young ones. I say submerge yourself in their hugs, kisses, laughter, playtimes and smiles. I say WAKE-UP and realize how lucky you are for the little treasure you have. I am an absolute believer of allowing your child to be selfish and alone with just you! It's wonderful, and in reality, IF we were living in Steiner's time we would all be doing just that (unless we were factory workers in which case, at age 6 or so, they'd be at the factory (school) while we did our work.)

Most families knew that the foundation of the child was being developed at that time, and also knew that the roots, the strength of the family unit and the community were what was best for a child of such age. I never had Zachary in school until he was 6 years old... and even then, it was only for about 2 1/2 months (that was all I could stand) at only 2-3 days per week. I also didn't want to leave him there alone, so I volunteered to be the Parent Toddler Group leader, and the misery that I put Zanna through (17 mos.) was such, that I retired early, and packed them both up and took them both home.

My children are so happy to be able to complete a task undisturbed, to be able to come up with original ideas, to be able to wake when they are ready, and to be with the people they love and trust the most... US! They are pleased to see how the world works on trips to the bank, the market, the post office... they are happy to be at the library looking, in quiet, in the morning hours, at all of the wonderful books full of ideas and plans... (if/when we went later in the day-when LOTS of school kids were "unwinding" from school, it was so chaotic that Zachary asked that we go at "the other time when it is like a library and not a playground")

I agree with everyone that what happens is that your child models and takes in all of the wrong behaviors, even at the Waldorf schools. It's too early to separate from Mom, and forming strong attachments to peers at this age is not "natural". IMHO, what is wrong with our society is that everyone needs to busy themselves with friends, gatherings, meetings, clubs, social events, etc... because they cannot figure out what to de when they are faced with the quiet of home and just themselves... They have forgotten how to be intimate, and how to be quiet within... Everyone wants to be entertained, and expects that their children want and need it too, when nothing is further from the truth.

If we lived 100 years ago, and all of time before that, we would look forward to the few "festivals" a few times a year... and that would be about it. The majority of our time would be spent within our own community, where we would be doing the jobs and deeds of friends... knitting baby booties for John's new baby sister, making a new warmer quilt for Granny Smith for this coming winter, canning peaches for the unfortunate Mrs. Widow, etc... Our social event would be a celebration of bringing in the harvest, welcoming the new family or saying our last goodbye to Old Man Jones...

There would be no carpool, no little league, no night at the pizza place. It seems so unnatural to me that it isn't "obvious" to everyone where the problems arise. We are too busy to simply "live". Everyone is walking around in a depression, looking for meaning when it is the simple deeds that give meaning.

The simple daily moments.

We have spent the last 2 days making a "cheer up book" for our friend who is in the hospital. He is 5 years old, and had a blood clot between his skull and his brain after a fall onto the pavement from a tall tree... we went to the hospital where we delivered our home-made gifts and spent time... Zachary crawled into the hospital bed with his friend, held his hand, and told him "I sure am glad you are still alive", and his friend looked into his eyes and said "me too".

It was simple, but so meaningful.

They sat in bed together talking quietly about dragon pictures, climbing trees (yes) and getting ready for Halloween. They visited. They shared, they cared... Zachary got into the car and said "It was a good visit mom, you are right, love is good medicine". Yes (beaming with pride) it is... as is one on one time and giving of yourself.

I wholeheartedly believe that expecting that a child's soul gets what it needs in a playgroup, or a classroom setting, is just selling the child and parent both short. Friends are fun, yes... but they should not make up the largest portion of our days, and the days should not always be structured, well planned and filled up and busy-busy. Young children need time to wonder, to dream, and to have you all to themselves. They need to just "be" and not to be learning how all of the time. When again in their life will they have this? Never! Maybe that is whey there are so many "adult children" with problems in our society...

Young children, and young adults need a strong foundation, strong roots... they get that from YOU the parents! Your job is the most important job in the world, and anyone trying to "sell" you their playgroup, class, or social agenda is just trying to fill up their own empty longings for what they don't have the courage to create and face in their own lives! (whew: talk about soapbox queen..!)

I love the women who write to my discussion list and participate in the conversation because we are pioneers and courageous women who are fighting for what is right in our hearts. We living it, and not just shrugging it off saying "well, we don't live in those times anymore"... We live in whatever we make of our lives, and everyone else is just making an excuse because what we have chosen requires a lot of dedication and work... but the proof is in the pudding!

Our children will benefit and grow into wonderful people because we fought the good fight! My suggestion is begin to take care of what matters.. teach your children the importance of cutting vegetables to make a soup for all to share, to sew a blanket for the cats new kittens, to loan, borrow, barter and trade, to care for the house, the yard, the neighbor... there will be plenty of time to "play"... remember, "daily work is the play of childhood" and and imitating you at work at home is what is most important to a young child.

I shudder to think of what "soul forces" are at play in a child who is being taught vanity ("Let's get pretty for school") and societal expectations ("We have to go... this is our play day") at such a tender age. What messages is that sending? That you cannot rely on yourself to make fun? That you "need" friends to have a happy day? That family is not enough, or that the party is more important that the work that needs to be done?

When was the last time your child folded daddy's shirts? When was the last time s/he swept the floor clean? IMHO what matters most now, is being a family and caring for the home and the family... tending to the garden, the pets, and the days work... People with teens complain that all they want to do is hang out with their friends, that they don't want to do their chores, etc... and I wand to say "What did you think? You had them in playgroup since birth... you TAUGHT them that was what was important!" and most people just simply don't get it.

I am amazed by this, I mean, isn't it simple logic and common sense???? The teens I know are putting on plays for the elderly at the nursing home, and looking at internships at Camphill, while most other teens are planning what outfit they'll be wearing on Friday night. They were taught, by their parents, what was MORE important... Taught by the way their lives were structured and their days spent, when they were young. That is when the seeds are planted!

Of course, these are my strong thoughts and feelings... and I do admit, I don't have many friends because of them.

But to me the size of my "circle" doesn't matter... it is what it's made of that counts.

That said, we have soup to make for a dear friend in the hospital....
http://www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/plantingseeds.htm

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TINK
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posted September 01, 2006 06:36 PM
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The voice must lose the power to wound!
That's it!!! That's the Steiner phrase I was looking for!

Thanks Eleanore I like that feeling too.

"those free themselves who overcome themselves"

Beautiful!

Salome ~ Kytka's great, isn't she? I've been wandering around her website for a few months. How old is your boy now?

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salome
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posted September 01, 2006 08:27 PM
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my babe had his 4th birthday recently....guess i can't call him 'babe' much these days...he's already stronger than i...
have you heard of A.S. Neil Tink? his ideas about education and the nature of children are unconventional and very insightful. his book Summerhill i found amazing and fundamental in my understanding of child education.

it's funny, everywhere we go these days, my babe, being such a charismatic leo, inevitably draws the spotlight to himself...and as he does, we also get the inevitable question...does he go to school?? i mean without fail, no other question but that one, and always that one. everyone asks that, people we meet in shops, restaurants....everywhere. it's not always hostile, but usually always judgemental, with the slightest hint of authoritarian disapproval should our possible answer be 'no'.

i've begun to say simply 'yes', as he is, as our home is his school. he loves learning, he's totally precocious and inquisitive...and it's an organic, ongoing proposition in our house.

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TINK
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posted September 01, 2006 09:13 PM
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Salome, I know so many who rush it. 3 year olds in school sponsered play groups to learn "social skills", 4 year olds in nursery school for 6 hours a day. I don't get it. I can't help but think children of that age just need home and family. That's the foundation for everything that follows. My nephew is 8 years old and the rigidness and excessive structure of his school environment astonishes me. What they expected of him at 6 years old in the 1st grade was enough to make me cry. Children of that age need movement. Their senses are still brand new to them - they need to touch and feel and experiment. But everything was written exercises on paper, and homework(homework in the 1st grade!), and sitting still in their little seats for hours on end. *sigh* No wonder half of them are diagnosed with ADD.

quote:
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he loves learning, he's totally precocious and inquisitive...and it's an organic, ongoing proposition in our house.
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An organic, ongoing proposition. Yes, that's what it should be ... and so rarely is.

I haven't heard of AS Neil. I'll check him out.

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salome
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posted September 01, 2006 09:56 PM
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wow, how nice to hear sympathetic words about this subject.
so often it seems like such a struggle to hold these views. i just found the Kytka wisdom website and so glad i did. i havent looked much online in a while...a lot of what i learned about things like this i did before babe's arrival...enjoy it while you can.

we're still trying to adjust to some things in our lives, but we try to have a consistent dance/yoga hour in our day. little guy LOVES dancing with utter abandon. the pure joy inherent in this activity with him is astounding.

about A.S. Neil, the sheer unconventionality of his ideas leaves him wide open for a lot of criticism, not dissimilar to the kind of criticism you can readily find about anthroposophy and waldorf education. he was friends and shared ideas with Wilhelm Reich. i would suggest reading his words from an original source...what he says is most compelling from his experience and personal standpoint, and quite obliterates the criticsm his ideas have evoked.

Harpyr
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From: land of the midnight sun
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posted September 15, 2006 02:41 PM
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(Part of post ommitted by Eleanore, also.)

What's really sad is that there's a wonderful conversation about waldorf and homeschooling, two topics I'm interested in right now, buried under heaps of garbage on this thread.

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/002598-5.html

posted September 23, 2006 01:37 AM         

No, I don't believe totally in home schooling. It is what the parents want for their kids and not their children. I have seen children going to private school and not doing great career wise too.

A child really applies his learnings in an environment when he is away from home.

Sending your kids to out of state where the education is cheap may be an option too. Inculcate in 'em sense of self control and responsibility. Treat them as friends. They won't spoil.

Cheers....Don't have kids so won't know. But I trust my instincts.

posted September 23, 2006 06:43 AM         

It would worry me if I felt our son was not separating from me as I didnt from my Mum. Luckily, since he has been at school, he has become independant and very sociable, quite the social butterfly actually.

As a point of interest, there is a child in his class, they were born on the same day with similar placements and this child has problems separating from the mother. I have watched them and noticed that she "holds onto him tightly". The first day back at school, she shouted after him "come back, what will I do without you". Later on that day I asked Jacob what he thought of that and he replied "sad, she is treating him like a baby, and he is not", They are both soon to be 8. I am glad that little boy is in school!

On the Steiner thing, my accupuncturist has a 5 year old boy who has been attending a Steiner playgroup. The problem they face now is finding a Steiner primary school. Also I have heard parents say that when their children leave Steiner education to go into mainstream education (cos there isnt any other option), then the children face a huge change....and have found it hard to adapt.

Our son is extremely sensitive and very artistic and into drama and music. The school he attends allows the parents to go in from time to time to do crafts, music, story telling etc....and also they are very open to parents meetings and discussions etc.

I know when he moves to secondary school in a few years time, things will be different. There are two choices in this area....a boys school and a mixed one. He tells me he wouldnt like to be with all boys, I too agree and feel in my heart it wouldnt be good for him.

I feel its important to stay involved with our children's education and more so to watch how they are being treated. I would have no problem with going into any school and pointing out where I thought things could be improved, as my father always did for me. It felt very reassuing and supportive. And I feel children need to feel they are being heard.

I always say to Jacob, if you ever feel sad or struggle with stuff tell me and also I have explained there is always a link between us....just tune into the violet light (or blue or white or whatever he feels)....

To some degree I think it works, cos he tells me "you are the person I can most be myself with Mum"...bless him and thanks be to God for that...

Sorry I am rambling...hope this helps...

Love to all

posted September 23, 2006 12:51 PM         

I agree with what Mannu and Sue said regarding the home schooling. I think it is good for kids to be interacting with other kids and making friends. It makes for a better, more well rounded adult. There will be good and bad experiences in a child's life but it is the reality he/she will also have in adult life. Kids who are sheltered and over protected from bad experiences in childhood will not learn how to deal with the realities of life. Human beings are by nature "pack animals." We are designed to be with other human beings or peers and learn to live socially with others. I think that being in a public school setting is good for children to learn to be socialable. But I also think that parents need to keep close tabs on the teachers and what the child is learning in school. Parents need to involved.

Regarding my remarks about Jesus getting angry that were discussed here, I stand by those remarks. He clearly did in Scripture. I also think it clearly shows an emotional response on Jesus' part. He got ticked off at what he saw happening in the temple and he not only got angry about it he dumped over tables and yelled for them to all get out. You can't get much more emotional than that. There was clearly a physical display of his anger that went along with his words. He dumped over a lot of tables.

Was that righteous anger on Jesus' part? You bet it was. But is it also not righteous anger on our parts when we are verbally abused or attacked personally by others? Yes, because we know it is wrong to treat others that way and our own self-respect as children of God is what prompts that righteous anger in us.

Jesus was upset at the injustice being done to his Father in his Father's house. I think to deny that Jesus got angry at times is to deny his humanity. Jesus was not just divine. He was also human. There was not only this incident in the temple where Jesus displayed his anger, there were times that he verbally displayed it at the Scribes and Pharisees, he called them a "brood of vipers!" That was not said in the nicest way.

In response to a personal attack on his person when the Pharisees were pretty much insinuating that Jesus had no father but was ,instead a b*stard, while their Father was God, Jesus came back with, " Your father is the father of this world who was a liar and murderer from the beginning." Not a nice way of saying it either.

It takes a great stretch of the imagination to think that Jesus replied in all of these instances with a gentle, sweet tone to his voice and a halo of light around his head. No, Jesus was also human and God did not intend that we be doormats for other people to work out their negative attitude on us.

There are also accounts in Scripture, though few, where Jesus cried. He shed tears over Jerusalem as he looked down from a hill onto the city. He was moved to tears at Mary's grief over the loss of her brother Lazarus. Clearly human reactions to the situation.

God would not have given humanity the emotion of anger if it was a negative thing entirely. My sister in law is a fundalmentalist. She would say things about my faith that were not true and then when I did get angry and reply to her she would say, " We are not supposed to get angry." Then stop ******* me off!! We have that emotion for a reason just as all of our emotions are for a reason. I agree that we should learn to get a handle on our anger to a degree, but not squelch it completely. It is not mentally nor physically healthy to surpress emotions for any reasons. I feel that how easily we can learn to control our anger depends on our individual temperment from birth and our learned behavior patterns from our backgrounds. We cannot change the temperment we are born with. We can only work towards getting a handle on it. Depending on the role models that each individual grew up with - their parents- we will either learn healthy ways of dealing with and expressing our anger or we we will learn negative ways. Learned behavior.

I do agree with you guys in that it is not good to let our anger go unchecked to a degree and that we should meditate on what is prompting that anger and come to understand it better which is the only way that we can learn to control it. However, I don't like the word "control" when it comes to any emotion. Coming to terms with it and discovering what there is in us that prompts certain emotions and retraining ourselves to find healthy ways of dealing our emotions is the only way change will ever come about.

When it comes to Jesus it is my belief that he was a human being as well as divine. Not all people believe in the divinity of Jesus and some people believe he was totally divine. I believe he was both. Righteous anger can also be due to personal attacks on ourselves if we have a healthy self-respect. Turn the other cheek gets carried too far by some people to mean being a doormat for the abuse of others and that is not what Jesus meant when he said that. He was talking of letting go and forgiving I think.

Just be yourself, the good, the bad and the ugly of it and grow at your own pace. Accept yourself with all your imperfections and allow others the same grace of acceptance and growth time. That is how I see it. Just as Jesus described the Pharisees as putting on make-up and donning white robes and parading around in order to be seen in a certain light by others, I also think that many people are doing the same thing instead of just being themselves, imperfections and all. And in the process of doing that they may only be surpressing emotions because that is their learned behavior patterns from childhood. It was mine for many years because many times I as a child I was frightened by the outward, sometimes verbally violent ways in which my parents displayed their anger at each other. I learned that anger was a bad thing. So I surpressed that emotion and was a doormat for others. I took a lot of verbal abuse from others. I learned from a disfunctional family that my feelings did not matter. Yeah, other people saw me as being sweet all the time but the trade off of impressing others with that behavior was that I was a seething volcano inside and I started having anxiety attacks and was a very unhappy person. I learned that it was very unhealthy for me to surpress my feelings and I have been working all my life at developing more healthy ways of expressing my feelings or emotions. But many times in certain situations I still fall back on those negative learned behavior patterns from childhood due to not having parents who exhibited anger in positive ways. I don't beat myself up over that when it happens but instead pick myself up and keep trying. That is all I can do and all any of us can do.

posted September 23, 2006 02:37 PM         

One parent told me she was invited to a child's birthday organised by two teachers of the local steiner school and at the party, all the parents were smoking hash in the kitchen whilst the kids were running in and out.

The woman who told me the story, said the house was like an opium den.....

Maybe not the best environment for the kids....I wonder if they smoke it whilst they are teaching too...

There are a lot of people here who are into the new age stuff and who dont have their feet on the ground and have their head stuck in the clouds....they drive me nuts to be honest...

Aaah well, takes all sorts I suppose, but I wouldnt want our son breathing in hash and tobacco fumes to be honest...he is a little too young for that!

posted September 23, 2006 03:05 PM         

I opted for co-ed private schooling for mine and never regretted it. (The Waldorf wasn`t financially available to me).

I never gave homeschooling any consideration. I wished my children to be a part of the community yet have the advantages of smaller class`s with a one on one teaching approach the parents were closely involved in.

They moved from private to public school at grade 7; the transition was smooth and they both skipped a grade.

In essence, our adventure in private schooling was an excellent investment for their future.

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 23, 2006 08:55 PM         

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One parent told me she was invited to a child's birthday organised by two teachers of the local steiner school and at the party, all the parents were smoking hash in the kitchen whilst the kids were running in and out.

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How strange. Steiner was adamantly against any and all drug use. In fairness though, here in America there are a good portion of parents who send their children to Waldorf Schools not because of an affinity for Anthroposophy, but rather because they are looking for an "alternative" private school. Possibly the same in Ireland?

Personally, I have little use for New Age mumbo jumbo myself. I can't speak for Steiner, of course, but practical man that he was, I don't suspect he'd have much tolerance for most of it either.

Speaking of practical ... suppresing the lower self is silly and counterproductive in the extreme. Who would argue? These things simply won't be swept under the carpet. They must be purified. And that's another thing entirely, not to mention a long, hard battle. But I believe Jesus won it.

"generation of vipers" sounds like nothing more than a common insult to our modern ears. As such, one would understandably imagine Jesus angrily spitting out the phrase at those mean, nasty Pharisees. I'm of the opinion that it meant more than just "hey, you guys are scum". Given that, I imagine it was said quite calmly. When able to see the true nature of a someone, why be angry about such a thing?

Manly P Hall wrote about that viper phrase and, if memory serves, Goethe too. Here's a small quote from Steiner regarding the same ...

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Those, therefore, who are followers merely of the Law as given on Sinai - that is, the Pharisees and Sadducees - are exposed to the danger of their development coming to a standstill. They are those who at the Baptism of John will see, not the Lamb, but the Serpent.

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That only touches upon the subject and I certainly don't expect anyone to swallow anything hook, line and sinker. Just expressing my little onion.

As for homeschooling, I like the idea of homeschooling little ones. I can't see throwing a 5 year old into the school system. But I think I might feel differently about a teenager.

posted September 24, 2006 01:57 AM         

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I agree with what Mannu and Sue said regarding the home schooling. I think it is good for kids to be interacting with other kids and making friends. It makes for a better, more well rounded adult.

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The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.