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Author Topic:   Circular Time/Reason why I don't believe in Immortality
Mannu
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posted June 10, 2007 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
Why I don't believe in an immortal body. This has been written by someone in grade nine. So wise.

http://www.rsiss.net/stepfolder/2karnik.html


quote:
"A story doesn’t need redeeming social value to keep us riveted by the details. Plot is key; so are passion and powerful people behaving their worst when the stakes matter the most." (Josh Tyrangiel, Time magazine, Feb. 12th, 2001).


Time is the real controlling force behind the plot of the Ramayana. It is Time who often is shown to end people’s lives, Time who talks to Ravana the night before his death, and Time who allows Rama to finally remember that he is Vishnu. Time is looked upon as circular in the Hindu belief system, which made the Hindus strong believers in fate. Fate is, in the Ramayana, simply another representation of Time. Death and Destiny are also closely related to Time in this manner, since it is Death who comes after life, which is a length of time (though a very short one, according to the Hindu beliefs). A person's Destiny is their Fate, so, since Destiny is the same as Fate, and Fate the same as Time. Time, Death, Destiny and Fate are all the same thing in the Hindu belief system.


Time, in the Ramayana, is shown as the twin of Death. He is personified as a thin, weak, bent old man who is often overpowered by others, including the evil antagonist of the book, the Demon King Ravana. Even so, it is Time who rules the plot of the story. Time, although weak in the short term, really has ultimate power over everything. Those who understand this and respect time, such as Rama, emerge victorious at the end of the story. Those who spurn time, such as Ravana, often meet an agonizing fate. When Ravana goes to conquer Death, a "corpse shrouded in brown sitting on the wasted ground…There were red fires in his dried and sunken eyes, and when he breathed it sounded like the death-rattle of the dying" (39) came to meet him. This is Kala, the personification of Time. Kala soon changes form before Ravana into "a fair young man, wearing fresh flowers and smiling". Soon afterward, Death is described as one "…who wears many faces…" (39) So, both Death and Time are shape changing, often do the same things, act in the same way, and are generally shown to be similar beings. However, Time also has another, stronger side.


Time is also sometimes shown as being all-encompassing, an all-powerful entity. However, only the wise are able to look at things in the long term and see him like this. When Rama is trying to console Dasaratha before he leaves in exile, Rama says, " Fear and bravery, freedom and bondage, birth and death, love and anger, all pivot on Time’s hub-wheel." (79) When Rama says this, he recognizes Time’s power. This is in great contrast to Ravana, who insults Time greatly- "And whatever you give you steal back, by fraud, from hiding, when you’re not watched". (337) In essence, Ravana and Rama are saying the same thing, but with different attitudes, and in different ways. Rama conveys that Time is all-powerful, and to resist Kala’s will is useless. He says that birth and death are a part of Time-which means that eventually, Time, although it gave us birth, will take our lives. Ravana takes a very different approach to the matter. He says that Time steals our lives away. He, like Rama, compares life with a gift. However, he feels that life is not Time’s possession to take away, and that when we die, Time is stealing our life. This shows how power-crazy Ravana is; instead of just accepting that he will die, Ravana wants to live forever-he wants to own his own life, and will not accept that it is Time’s right to take life away. Ravana also says to Time that "Death and misery are your good friends-but you are yourself unreal…"(337). Ravana is denying even the existence of Time. Ravana, in his ignorance, does not realize that Time and Death are really the same thing.


Ravana shows again his misunderstanding of Time and mortality when he wishes to be unslayable. This shows his desire for immortality, and thus his want to be invincible-the most powerful being in the universe.
At another point in the book, when Rama is about to leave for his exile in the forest, it is Sumantra who scorns Time. While trying to convince Rama not to leave in exile, Sumantra (who does not realize that, for Rama, 14 years a very short time) asks, "Why listen to his [Vasishtha] pretended talk of Time and Fate? What real man meekly bows to Destiny? (Ramayana, 77) Rama, however, who is portrayed as the perfect man in the book, promptly replies that he does. This episode depicts that it is only ignorance that allows people to spurn Time and Destiny. When Rama talks with Time, he does not give in to this ignorance. Rather, Rama presents a new view of Time.


When Rama is talking with Time, Time is seen as circular, never ending and never beginning. Rama, talking to Time says "Your end is your beginning, you start when you finish" (120). Often, Time is associated with Fate. Everything happens for a reason, and Time is all-powerful. Time describes this view of himself in his conversation with Rama: "Do you speak…I let you. Do you do good?…My hand guides yours…end and beginning are hard to see and they are one, Rama". (420) This again shows the Hindu’s circular view of time. Thus, Time’s omnipotence stems from the fact that Time has no end. Time may have but a small influence on any person, but as the ages build, the influences add up. For example, if Time wants someone to die, all he has to do is wait. Eventually, the person will die, and Time gets his way. Thus, Time is all-powerful and decides how everything will eventually turn out.


Time fates everything with a purpose in mind. Another way of saying this is that everything happens for a reason. An example of this occurs when Manthara convinces Kaykei to send Rama away to the forest in exile. Although it seems an evil thing for Manthara to do at the time, eventually the fact that Rama is sent to the forest works out for the best. If Rama had not been sent to the forest, Sita would never have been stolen, and Rama would never have killed Ravana. This is said when Manthara eventually apologized to Sita at the end of the story. Sita, consoling Manthara, says " Not only men, but even the gods have been freed from fear of Ravana…Rama killed Ravana only because of what you did." (386). In this scene, Sita is acknowledging the power of Time and Fate over everybody. She refuses to pass judgment on Manthara, because in the end, everything comes out all right. Thus, she concludes, the fact that Manthara sent Rama to the forest must be fated. This non-judgmental attitude also occurs in several other places, such as when Rama refuses to judge Dasaratha for sending him to the forest.


The Hindu view of circular time is also shown in the way the Ramayana is written. In the beginning of the book, the story jumps around, beginning at the end of the story, jumping back to the beginning of time, and jumping forward again. This made perfect sense to the Hindus, demonstrating their view of time. If everything were fated, then the Hindu ideology would be rather complacent, because anything that anyone did was going to happen anyway. Thus, there would be no need for anyone to take initiative. This is in fact the case. Rama admits he bows meekly to Destiny, and Guha, while talking to Bharata, offers his opinion about Time. "Time does what he must, powered by the past. When Time does us wrong, we are lucky just to live on and get another chance…" (120).


Yet, Time is also shown as being weak and easily defeated. This is shown when Ravana meets Time.


Then Ravana touched Kala but lightly…Time started to sweat…Ravana stood with his hands on his hips as he watched Time fade and vanish with a puzzled look, ever still trying in vain to say something more (Ramayana, 39).


But, before Kala disappears, he says that everything is covered with dust. Then, by going away, Time leaves almost with the last laugh-for dust is a symbol of Time past. When a place has been left for a long time without care, dust collects on it. Time, by foretelling dust on the walls, is foretelling that, sometime in the future, Lanka will not be taken care of. The only reason this could happen is if Lanka was defeated. Time, by seeing dust on the walls, is foretelling the fall of Lanka. The fact that Time leaves his imprint before leaving shows that Time is not really defeated in his showdown with Ravana; rather, Time just departs, knowing that Ravana would die in the end.


The Hindu view of time shows how impossible it is to escape from Time’s grasp. To them, everything is fated by time, and thus, impossible to change. Thus, even though characters are used to forward the plot, it is really Time/Destiny/Fate/Death who controls everything, including what happens. Without these elements, combined in the Ramayana into one being called Time, nothing could or would happen. It is Time who controls the story of the Ramayana.


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26taurus
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Posts: 10821
From: Paradise
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2007 12:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Wow !
Thank you for posting, Mannu. I cant believe that was written by a 9th grdr. So very wise. !! This boy is ahead of his "Time".

IMHO physical immortality is not the Way. After long meditations and extensive readings, this is my own conclusion. *dodging bullets*

Lately i've been immersed in the ancient scriptures of Patanjali and the Upanishads. It's food for my soul. Nothing else quenches it like they do....
Along w/ other Indian/Eastern yogis, sages and mystics. They resonate most strongly w/ me.

quote:
He says that Time steals our lives away.

As does anger, envy, jealousy, etc.

This boy K-Nows!

Bravo!

Thanks for sharing.

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 10958
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2007 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
I have to agree!

How long would one, want to live in one body temple, it is our soul that is immortal.
I think if we had balance and harmony, we could certainly live for a couple hundred years, but after say 200, wouldn't one want to move on?

Time, fate, destiny, birth, death, past, present, and future, an illusion of this world, but part of our Learning and Growing!

All connected by God. ...

LOve and Magic!

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26taurus
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Posts: 10821
From: Paradise
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2007 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
tick, tock...

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26taurus
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From: Paradise
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posted June 11, 2007 12:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
oh, hey lotus!

i agree!

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lotusheartone
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From: piopolis, quebec canada
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posted June 11, 2007 12:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Hi 26taurus

hehe, tick-tock

let's smash the clock,

and use a Sun Dial!

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26taurus
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From: Paradise
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2007 12:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
wah-bam!

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 10958
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2007 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
The good old days, Golden days
of LOve and Light and Magic!

abacadabra! hehe
I wish it was that simple, I bet it really is! LOL

or, we could click our heels, and repeat 3 times,
there's no place like home

realizing, we were already home, Soul to Soul to Soul to Soul. ...

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26taurus
Knowflake

Posts: 10821
From: Paradise
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2007 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
...simpliCity, Yes. That's the Key.

..there's a book i'll be reading soon, that i think you might like, lotus. it was recommended to my mom by a friend of hers.

you remind me of my mom in some ways...
anyway, she has read it now and says i must read it. i'll post about it in Pilgrim's Progress. Maybe you'll pick it up and tell me what you think. Or i could send it to you when i'm done.

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 10958
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2007 01:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
I'll look for your post, in the Pilgrim's Progress!

I LOve reading, right now, I am reading Weave-World, by Clive Barker!

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Lialei
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posted June 11, 2007 01:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lialei     Edit/Delete Message
Time is a merchant;
balancing coins
weighing debts

A wealthy hoarder of dreams,
doling just enough fulfillment
to urge us back for more;
the pitiful weakness
of a junky's nightmare

Time is satiated, smug
Royal sovereign in earthly domain,

yet a beggar seeking worth,
pathetic,
to Eternity's majestic refrain.


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26taurus
Knowflake

Posts: 10821
From: Paradise
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2007 02:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 26taurus     Edit/Delete Message
Lia, geez!

...no doubt you wrote that.

Such depth...

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lotusheartone
Knowflake

Posts: 10958
From: piopolis, quebec canada
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2007 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Lialei, I LOve your POem!

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Mannu
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posted June 11, 2007 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
Hello 26T , Thanks. Not shooting bullets as I am a Gandhian. I was hesistant to post it initially as it tells a story that not many people know. But nice to know theres a broad spectrum of souls here...what ever it means.


Lotusheartone, sometimes your words are pearls


Isn't there a movie where people who were supposed to die , cheats death and death comes looking for them. I can't remember the name of the movie, but there was this scene where a college girl is getting premonition about an accident that will happen on the highway.

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Mannu
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posted June 11, 2007 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
Lialei, Nice poem. Quite a serendipity (excuse my grammar hehehe)

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lotusheartone
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Posts: 10958
From: piopolis, quebec canada
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posted June 11, 2007 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lotusheartone     Edit/Delete Message
Awwww, Mannu, Thanks!

LOve and Magic to ALL!

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