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Author Topic:   i'm confused (question on religion)
neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
Christians believe that Christ will one day come back and that his second coming is near. But i was watching 'the real mary magdalene' on the history channel and the speaker stated that Jesus told magdalene that there will be no messiah coming from the heavens and that salvation is about enlightenment, this statement is found in the gnostic gospels, i think the book of Mary. But what i don't get is that both ideas contradict one another.

I just don't get it. Can someone help me understand why the bible and the gnostic gospel both have opposing views of salvation yet are influenced by the same man, Jesus Christ?

something doesn't seem right...

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Mannu
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posted February 27, 2008 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
The mainstream bible gives you hope. The gnostic is different in the sense it throws you back to your truer selves. You have to achieve the state that Jesus was in. Nothing else will give you enlightenment.

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neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The mainstream bible gives you hope. The gnostic is different in the sense it throws you back to your truer selves. You have to achieve the state that Jesus was in. Nothing else will give you enlightenment.

I'm not sure if i understand your statement, mannu. So you say that the gnostic gospel is whats realistic, right?, okay then. My question is, why won't Christians give up the fantasy of the second coming, to face reality? Its only going to hurt mankind more if we keep perpetuating that fantasy.

I don't understand how nothing else but Jesus' example can bring us enligthenment, when the time we live in, in the here in now, the nuclear age, is drastically different from the time Jesus was around.

The last two sentences in your statement don't make any sense to me either, because in this age we live in, we have more technological capabilities that exceed the limitations of Jesus's time, and so we have to acquire new ways of thinking, which utterly means new ways of approaching enlightenment. And this means using philosophies that help us adapt to our growing capacities. We need to think in ways that help us grow, rather than stagnate our growth, wouldn't you agree?

(i just want to make sure were on the same page, please don't take my comments as offensive or mean, i just want myself and other people to understand the truth)

For some reason, to me, the new testament and gnostic gospels, some parts of both texts seem kind of misleading. Why not 1 truth? instead of multiple ones?

honestly i just think people need realism, not hope. Realism first, hope later is how i think things should be. But in Christianity, its the bible first, gnostic gospels later, which is hope first, realism later, which can be very misleading.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
As I see it...

Contradictions are everywhere, in the Bible, among interpreters of the Bible, and among the Apocryphal texts and their interpreters. We are talking about a kitchen with a lot of cooks in it. Even where there is consensus in the writings, there is division among the interpretations. It is the nature of spiritual revelation to be metaphorical and symbolic, and, frequently, to have more than one interpretation. We may argue over which interpretation is correct, but, often, both, or numerous, interpretations are correct (although some are just plain wrong, lol). Much confusion is the result of people with no spiritual insight interpreting these symbols literally and/or one dimensionally.

Christ says:

"I did not come for the righteous,
but to bring sinners to repentance;
For the well need not a physician,
but them that are sick."

Still, people await the second coming, thinking that the righteous shall be delivered.

But, Christ also says,
"The righteous already have their reward".

It is the "sinners" who must be delivered!


Many of the dogmas of the Church have divinely inspired origins, and their intention is good. They are not meant to be obeyed, but fulfilled. That is to say, the rules of conduct are not there to "rule" you, but, to measure your progress, more like the kind of rulers made up of centimeters and inches. Some dogmas are universal (i.e. divinely inspired) and can be found among all religions worthy of the name (with only superficial differences), while others were merely appropriate to their time and place, and/or to the level of understanding of the person or persons who proposed them.

Rituals are designed to symbolize processes that take place in the soul, and, by acting them out, we are encouraged to reflect upon these processes. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a ritual is worth a thousand pictures. Ritual is also a form of Theurgy, or Divine Magick, in that it assists in bringing divine awareness into being. Religion is in a state of decay when people forget the deeper, symbolic meanings of the dogmas and rituals, and, instead, merely parrot and perform them mindlessly, thinking that the only thing that matters is the belief or the action, and not the intention, attitude, and understanding behind it.

It is worth reflecting on the origins of religion. All religions have their "genesis" in the mystical experience, and, specifically, in either a single mystical experience, or a series of mystical experiences, all occuring to a single individual. From there, the individual tries to conceptualize this experience by using symbolic language, and endeavors to communicate the experience to others by the use of words. This becomes a "teaching". If others are sympathetic to this teaching, they begin to contribute their own experiences and intepretations to it. Consequently, numerous mystics and non-mystics combine their perceptions into what eventually comes to be known as a religion. The original symbols communicated by the solitary mystic become a kind of framework, or language, which other mystics and non-mystics may make use of to understand and communicate their own perceptions. So, instead of many disconnected mystics and non-mystics conceptualizing their experiences in totally different and idiosyncratic ways, we get what amounts to a community of minds, hearts, and souls, sharing a similar vision of the spiritual worlds.

This is what Saint Paul refers to in his first epistles to the Corinthians (chapter 14), when he tries to illuminate the distinction between prophesy and "speaking in tongues". "Speaking in tongues" may have more than one interpretation (as is frequently the case with scripture), but, I think, the most significant meaning is that a person who speaks in tongues speaks in the symbolical language of his own personal understanding, or, of the particular religion to which he/she belongs. Paul tells us that, when we speak in these symbols, we will be understood by our fellow Christians (or Muslims, or Buddhist, or Hindus...), but, we will not be understood by the adherents of other religions, who are accustomed to speak in another "language". Just as a person speaking French will only be understood by others who speak that language, so, a person speaking the spiritual language of Christianity will only be understood by other Christians (unless the listener is "multilingual", and has the gift of translation, or "prophesy"). So, in this epistle, Paul encourages Christians not to speak only in the language of Christianity, but, to learn to translate this language into the languages of other religions, for that is the only way to foster understanding between religions. Ultimately, the same feelings and ideas may be communicated in French, English, Italian, or any number of other languages; although the words they use look and sound different, the underlying meanings are essentially identical.

It helps to reflect that the founder of a religion is, in one sense, an extremely gifted type of artist. What he presents are not facts, but truths. Spiritual insight is the ability to distinguish between fact and truth; the letter and the spirit. Ultimately, we are talking about the artistic/spiritual vision of a single individual; an artist, whose gift is so powerful and compelling, that it is capable of inspiring many other artists, and even people with no artistic/spiritual talent, to share their vision, and to create similar works of their own, reflecting the profound influence of the artist who came before them. And, in many cases, it is not so much a matter of inspiration and influence, but, really, it is just that Jesus was the one to say it first (and maybe best). In the case of the Christian world, Jesus was not necessarily the greatest artist, but, the first. He even referred to himself as "the first fruits". This is similar to what the German philosopher, Nietzsche, had to say about the German philosopher Goethe, who preceeded him. According to Nietzsche, Goethe was the first German, and maybe the first human being, to have captured the spirit of his time. Goethe got there first, and, although others came after him, and had the same insights, the credit had to go to Goethe. He was original in the sense that he came first, although the insights of later thinkers were not necessarily inspired by Goethe, and may have been discovered independently of him. The same may be said of Jesus, although Jesus was more of an artist than a thinker, and his insights are, therefor, communicated symbolically. Moreover, Jesus, as it is recorded in the Bible, "spoke as one with authority". His charisma and conviction were such that, when he delivered his message, it was received as, not just another interpretation of the eternal mysteries, but, a revelation; not as another form, but as the form. At least, the form most appropriate to his time and place. This claim was not made by Jesus himself, but, he assented to accept the application of "Messiah" or "Son of God", which others insisted upon attributing to him, because he could see that it was proven, not by anything he said, but, by the profound depth of the responses his words awakened in others.

That should give you enough to chew on for a while.


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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
The Book of 1 Corinthians
Chapter 14

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

http://www.justbible.com/bychapter.asp?bookchap=B46C014.htm#V6

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
~ Matthew, Chapter 22

'Would you know your Lord's meaning in this thing? Know it well. Love was his meaning. Who showed it to you? Love. What did he show you? Love. Why did he show it? For love. Keep yourself therein and you shall know and understand more in the same. But you shall never know nor understand any other thing, forever.'
~ Julian of Norwich

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Reflections


Metaphor is the mark of all Sanskrit. To see metaphors is to read from the book of life. A metaphor is a bridge between peaks. Where there is distinction, metaphor illumines a common identity. Metaphor is meandering as truth is. Sure-footed is light-footed.

We are full. We are brimming. Life unfolds. Worlds overflow. Contemplate beginnings. Once more, with feeling. All of us spinning. Doctors of nothing. Come again, full circle. You are well remembered. All of us beginning.

Love. Begin with Love and you can never go wrong. Take aim at love, and you can never "sin", which is "to miss the mark". Love is lighter than the wind, lighter than the ether. Your arrows will cut fire and fly straight. A single arrow will point you the whole way to the Kingdom, if its aim is true. Begin with love, or repeat history.

The most incredible experiences are not realized until after they are over. During such experiences, guiding spirits shield from our vision all but the moment. Only in time do great lessons come to light. They are given in an instant, to be pondered for an eternity. Philosophy is the high art of devoting oneself to wisdom, and honoring one's experience of the world, by the patient application of thought to the ephemeral moments which impress their significance upon us. When you chew your food, every bite you take makes it easier on your stomach. Without reflection, indigestion. So, in remembering God, let us remember "Him" frequently. In this way, it must be easier to digest His Word for us, our lesson in the world.

Our Father desires only our freedom. He comes only when we beckon Him, and otherwise leaves us free reign. Like a servant, the Lord waits on our command. Such a servant is worthy of reverence, and what deserves reverence, deserves frequent remembrance. For, truly, a man is indebted to his servant, as the beneficiary of his graces. And how much more are we indebted to our Lord, whose graces themselves serve us, and bestow graces beyond themselves? For by means of gifts, more gifts are discovered. Always, the gifts of gifts.

Everything is holy. A line crossed out is a bible unseen. The scriptures are woven with jewels, and all of them rejected. Even to discover them is to reject them. Every discovered jewel is a rejected star. Every star is a rejected sun. Every sun the center of a cosmos. Sages abandon themselves in this orbital dance and are senseless.

Who does not love to write does not write to love. The work one loves is the work of love. When you love what you do, what you do is love. You all have gifts to be discovered. The light that reveals your gifts shines out from within them, and is one with them.

You are not a chronicler, but a composer of songs. There is nothing to be. When it is said, "Be this," or "Be that," you are already "this", you are already "that". It is your voice that speaks. It is your song that would be sung. And it is not a command but a declaration; a declaration of love for "this" or "that". You ask, "But, how will I know when it is love that speaks?" Because love, my friend, always comes singing, gently singing.

I will beg the muses to linger, though the darkness is all but replaced by the light, and the Moon is barely a shadow. But if the muses be silent, I will read and reflect upon their gifts with the deepest gratitude, lest I stray by following my mortal lights. For truth is alive, and speaks only through the mouth of a muse, - and does not speak, but sings. And all that is not sung is dead; untrue and unmoved. Truly, the greatest sages have all been poets and singers of songs. Lesser sages, at their best, sang us a song. And if they had only one song in them, they learned it well, and sang it often. All truth is sung. All truth is poetic. All poetry cryptic. All love is rejoicing. All life is homecoming.

What is to be remembered? Only what is dead. Shall we remember the Lord in this way? Or do we perhaps mean something different, something unique, when we speak of "remembering" the Lord, who is all life? Truly, to "remember" the Lord means only to forget all that is dead and past, and, rather, to dwell in the life of His infinite presence. Shall we remember a person when he or she is with us? Would this not be to neglect our guest? So, a song is well remembered only when it is sung, for that is not to bury it, but to give it new life. Just so, the Lord is well remembered, even resurrected, when we love.

Love. Begin with love and you can never go wrong. Ending in love, you know you've done right. Love is the beginning and end of all good labors, and all true questions. But love does not seek to uncover, only to leave things be. Love knows that all is well.

To open the Ark is not to heed its inscription: "This ark is Love. All you will find inside it is Love. But if you see no Love in this outer form, or in the modesty, the secrecy, of this form, how shall you see it inside?" Love is fond of mysteries, but does not press. Love is not greedy for more than what is revealed. Love will not undress the truth, but patiently seduce her to disrobe. Love love's foreplay. Love is always on the edge of her seat, but never hurries the truth. Love needs no reason or argument to love, and does not seek for something more to love, but is content at all times to find the universe in a grain of sand. The Ark is a Pandora's Box, and Love's inscription is the soft lock upon that box. It is locked for love of you, but the key is granted upon request, also for love.

Let them interpret these and other sayings. All they shall discover is love. All they shall ever learn is love. Let there be interpretations. For true words are many layered, and many secrets go undiscovered when any secret is disturbed. The noonday sun shuts out from our sight a thousand stars. Love keeps all secrets. For the only secret is love, and the only mystery is our ignorance and indifference to love.

The mystery does not trouble itself to confound us, or to be mysterious. Its nature is mystery, so it is infinitely mysterious. But if you ask a sage, he or she will tell you every time, "The answer is love." Love. So light, it floats away on the breath when we call it. So heavy, it comes pregnant with mysteries, desperate for a bed. So fine it can't be seen. So dense it cannot be fathomed. A blinding vision to behold.

Darling one, come again! My wonder. Like a grandmother, let me behold you, grandchild. And run free like a child at your choosing, unbound by love. All your choices are for love. And when you have gorged yourself on love, in one form or another, it is to love's bed that you retire. And both forms of love are divine. Both are prayers well received. All love is divine, and all prayers are holy. For God hears only love, and God hears all love. Even the faintest love is a chorus attended by God. And all that speaks of unholiness speaks to unholiness, and is itself unholy. Do not disturb the mystery. Let the mystery be holy. Leave the questions unhurried. Let the questions be holy.

Love is certain. For, to be certain is to rest, and there is no rest but in love. Only love is at rest. Only love is certain.

Breathe in, when you meet with resistance, and breathe out when you meet with acceptance. The greatest wisdom is simple, as a seed is simple. Every seed can sprout a thousand Vedas, and nourish many nations. True wisdom is self-perpetuating. To grasp it is to be inspired with it. Where the song of love is resonant, it is creative.

Can you sing a hurtful word? Who will permit it in her song? The song of love is melodious, and by its delicacy you shall know it. But harsh tones of accusation do not soothe, and bitter reproaches are clumsily sung. Even to make note of them here would be a disservice, were it not done in the service of love.

Let all lessons not be in vain. Leave them be, if they are learned. All lessons are but the restless spirits of lives already passed, crying only to be left in peace, unreconciled and unresolved; their legacies entrusted to living descendants. You are not your lessons or your karma, though the spirits of your ancestors move within you unperceived. Your heart is a ghost yard, restless and disturbed. Your questions and answers are the plaints and groans of the dead. Relax yourself, and give them peace.

Abandon your lessons, child, and partake of the summer breeze! You have appointments to keep with the flowers and the trees! They have new, adventurous secrets to impart, to whosoever would meet them. Then let the present life inform you! You are not a historian, but a maker of history! In this knowing there is only love, and only love is this knowing. For love is all that is known, and all that can ever be known.

There is no end to God's love for you, and no end of love songs to sing. Only be still, and you shall hear the strains, and they shall move you to dance and sing by themselves. Singing along to this song, you will know you keep synch with the Lord. Dancing, you will know you keep step. Speak of the eternal and your words shall be eternal, immortal. Speak of troubles and your words shall be as dust, shook loose from the soles of His feet. The great work is only interrupted when you doubt yourself, for that is to doubt God's love for you. Speak, then, as the Son of our Lord shines; He does not cease to shine for eclipses. So is my love for you uneclipsed.

We only ever reject ourselves. We only ever reject love. If we had love for ourselves, we would rest safely in that love, and not desire to move from there, in order to heap scorn on another. All we ever want is love, and love is ours to give! Hear this and rejoice! Know your understanding is lifted. And with it, love is lifted from the depths of your spirit, and poured out freely over the parched earth of your soul. You love yourself; tired, beaten down by a thousand ungentle truths; not in glory, but in ruin; not perfected, but incomplete; not the bread, but the flower, ground exceedingly small. You are the child, fit to pass through the narrowest gate.

The Lord gives us all that we have, and is not done giving. Open the gifts of the Lord. Children, do not wonder: All is welcome. All is forgiven. As you ache, I ache for you with you. I'm there, inside you, like a child, welcome or unwelcome. Your contractions are only occasioned by my hastening to you. You, the Virgin Mother, and I, the Lord, your God. To some it is madness, to others a secret bliss. Mother, will you love me, small as I am? Will you carry this child to term? Embrace the formless spirit within this broken form? I, the Lord God, am this child.

God love us! God deliver us! Love is infinite. The only thing is love. The only thing you reject is love. Blessed are the rejected. Loved are they, even as all are loved. But this love is greater in a relative sense, for "The stone that the builder rejected shall be the head stone of the corner." There is nothing to embrace but the Christ, nothing to reject but the Christ. Discard nothing! That which you have in hand is the Christ, and the first stone which must be set. Asking ourselves, "What do I reject? What do I despise?", we locate the stone. Speaking unto the Lord, "This shall I love," we embrace the stone. Silent in our hearts, "Loving the stone," we carry it to the appointed and anointed place. Losing ourselves in love for the stone, we affix it there. Such labor is a joy incomparable. Who labors with the Lord, gives birth to love, and lives in love with love. That which is weakest is wanted. All who grow tired grow strong. To be low is to be flooded in God's love, for God's love must fill all the rivers and channels it runs down, and gather force along the way.

My beloved one, do not trouble yourself to understand this. These mysteries are boundless and not to be circumferenced. There is nothing to know, nothing to be won. All love is free and flows everywhere like the air. Will you only breathe deeply when you draw your last breath?

Alas,
That flesh is hunted, and taken before its time,
While love grows on trees, and dies on the vine!

Love is everywhere ripe, and everywhere engenders itself. As you reap it, so is it also sown, as the seeds fall from your lips. To love is not difficult. To love is only to be forgiven. Is it so difficult to be forgiven? Don't ask Saturn. Don't ask Neptune. Ask yourself, if you are given.

You, who hide your beauty under a veil of shame. You are the virgin bride of the Lord, worthy to bear the true prince. Let your tears be for joy. Let His mercy enfold you. There was nothing before, and there is nothing now, but love. Always, it has been so. Only you have desired to hear. Hear me, then. Love me, if you would reject me. And, if not me, love another, for I am in all things, and am not an object to be loved, but the love itself! Only love, love, love, and all accounts shall be balanced, all laws perfectly fulfilled.

Why beat your head against a wall? The only way through it is love. Behold, I shall stand before you in the nakedness of my flesh, and not move from your path until I am fully embraced. My body shall be as an impenetrable wall around the garden of my spirit, and only those who can love the body shall be able to pass through it as spirit. This is the way, the truth, and the life. This is the eternal law of love.

Amen.


~ Heart-Shaped Cross

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BlueRoamer
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posted February 27, 2008 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
HSC why aren't you a preacher?

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
LOL

Aren't I?

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BlueRoamer
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posted February 27, 2008 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueRoamer     Edit/Delete Message
You are?

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neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
you'd make a good one. Oh and thanks for all the info, it helps,

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
You are?

Maybe not.

You be the judge.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted February 27, 2008 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you and you're welcome, Neptune5.

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neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
deleted

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ListensToTrees
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posted February 27, 2008 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
The way I see it....is that there is truth in many things....the doors of perception....etc,

And that what really matters is how we live, how we love.
Love is all that really matters.

I hope that makes some sense.

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Mannu
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posted February 27, 2008 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
>>>mannu. So you say that the gnostic gospel is whats realistic, right?

Well each book has its own significance in time. The holy bible had its moments because it gave rules to unevolved men. Remember men had no rules thousands and thousands of years ago. They were killers and barbaric. Rapers of woman. Drunkards. Fighting with people who would enter their territory. The OT was written to build some kind of fear in them so that they can refrain. I am glad that worked. People did good things out of fear of hell. So the bible served its purpose. Along comes Jesus and he says "God is not that dreadful picture that you have painted all along but God is Love". He even said "You are children of the living father." And in the gnostic he even adds You are also the Father. It sounds contradictory but when you achieve that oneness state you can comprehend. Nothing else will do.

I guess 2000 years ago and even now its impossible for people to recognize their divinity within. Its only approx 35 years that those treasured books were discovered. People are still interpreting it as we write. I would even say "enlightenment of many christians would have been delayed for a very long time (if not impossible)
without those books".

Always read and question and then accept no matter who says or what is said.


quote:
>>>>>My question is, why won't Christians give up the fantasy of the second coming, to face reality?
Its only going to hurt mankind more if we keep perpetuating that fantasy.

That question has been answered several times in the "The Mustard Seed". So I won't spend much time reanswering them.

Did you read Mother Theresa's private letters? Do you think these christians don't know what was said in it? Majority will still prefer to live in disillusionment despite all that.
A true seeker will learn his/her lessons and progress spiritually but not those idiots. But their idiocracy can't last longer. Hopefulness will tire them and they will fall back. Man is much more capable than any one can think. Again "The Mustard Seed" answers many of those questions on hope and faith. I wanted to hear my voice and I found my voice in that book
But as always "take what is best and leave the rest". Every one has travelled different paths over so many years. Same truth will have different level of impact on the readers based on their makeup. People will never accept a naked Diogenes. They always want a cover up.
It pleases their mind. If you love this world too much , you will still not be ready to make mind your slave. You will rather chose to be a slave
of your mind.

I know all this still raises more questions. I am surprised that you posted 2022 posts so far and were not reading what I or many others had to say on so many things on this web site? I too miss many of the posts at times for lack of time and some because I chose to LOL. Point is that can be a good starting point. There is mystery in the most mundane tasks we do. Only we need to be aware. The mystery will reveal itself to you. So no need to jump ship also forum to forum is what I was saying. Nevermind.

quote:
The last two sentences in your statement don't make any sense to me either, because in this age we live in, we have more technological capabilities that exceed the limitations of Jesus's time, and so we have to acquire new ways of thinking, which utterly means new ways of approaching enlightenment. And this means using philosophies that help us adapt to our growing capacities. We need to think in ways that help us grow, rather than stagnate our growth, wouldn't you agree?

All these advances is meant to give us more personal time to us for our internal reflections. Instead man is still struggling to find his time for his soul. I can't imagine Americans just gettin 2 weeks of vacation a year. In their sparetime man has become more and more dependent on machines and gadgets to entertain them. I see lawyers struggling adding simple numbers hehehe.... Brain must be run constantly and at an optimal level for it to function best.

And no. Philosophies, code of conduct and ethic rules, none of that will give you the ultimate freedom that you long for.
I know I sound vert mysterious or illogical or whatever. Keep reading books by author who has been their and tasted freedom.
Rest of us are all slaves. Not slave as in household. But slave as in our boundedness to things that do not lead to ultimate enlightenment.

Sorry I can't add much more for lack of time.


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neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
good point LTT, i also do believe that there is truth to every concept of reality and nature around us, because we all make it happen, together, and i believe we are all connected, through our individual truths. And through our distinct beliefs, we complement each other, in the grand scheme of things.

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ListensToTrees
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posted February 27, 2008 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ListensToTrees     Edit/Delete Message
I agree. We need more love and true wisdom in the world rather than cleverness without wisdom. If people in power only honored the sacred truth that all is One, then we would see a totally different world than we do know. I read this wonderful book recently, a re-telling of an ancient story told by Satish Kumar, called "The Buddha and the Terrorist". It was truly profound....if only more people could understand. These are the furthest you can get from naeive ideals, or anything "sugar-coated", which a closed mind may dismiss as such at a simple glance.

And what you said- about everybody's beliefs complimenting each other, in the grander scheme of things- I feel that too.

I liked this saying in a book I read when I was 14 or 15 called "The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying" by Soygal Rinpoche.
That human beings could be likened to a necklace of various coloured jewels; each jewel bringing out more of the beauty in the others.

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neptune5
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posted February 27, 2008 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
oh, thanks mannu, for clearing that up, i think i understand a bit more, and you do actually make a lot of sense.

this is an interesting point,

quote:
And no. Philosophies, code of conduct and ethic rules, none of that will give you the ultimate freedom that you long for.
I know I sound vert mysterious or illogical or whatever. Keep reading books by author who has been their and tasted freedom.
Rest of us are all slaves. Not slave as in master-servant. But slave as in our boundedness to things that do not lead to ultimate enlightenment.

your very correct, and you also mentioned freedom a couple times, when you get time tell me what you think of this quote:
(its from Rollo May's book Love and Will, its an older text, but i think its still relevant)

quote:
One thing which is clear since Freud is that the 'first freedom', the naive freedom of the Garden of Eden before the 'fall' into consciousness or the infant before the struggle to acheive and enlarge consciousness, is a false freedom. The present struggle with the machine is the same question all over again. If our freedom is what is left over, what the machine can't do, the whole issue is lost to start with: we are doomed when, in some future day, a machine can be invented to do it. Freedom can never be dependant upon a suspension of necessity, by God or science or anything else. Freedom can never be an abnegation of law, as though our 'will' operated only in a temporary margin of relief from determinism. But the planning, the forming, the imagination, the choosing of values, the intentionality are the qualities of human freedom.

intentionality is - the structure that gives meaning to our experiences. For example, someone chooses to be in a love affair, intentionality questions what this love affair does for both partners. How does it give their lives, prespectives on their individual lives and lives together, and overall growth as a person, meaning? The center of that question, the HOW, is the intentionality.

tell me what you think of the quote in terms of us (mankind) being enslaved to ideas and lifestyles that are not leading us to the ultimate enlightenment.

(anyone can give an opinion on the quote, not just mannu)

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MysticMelody
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posted February 27, 2008 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
oh Steve, your words FILL me with love
the beauty
I could read this again and again.
I saved this version too.
It puts me in touch with God and draws my gaze to the window to soak up nature's beauty.

I feel so mellow again.

Thank you


Good luck on your searches and on the thread everyone, I hope you find what you are looking for...

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Mannu
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posted February 27, 2008 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
neptune5
-----
I think it is wrong to compare man and machine. The dumbest man on the planet earth is much smartest machine. So I do not completely agree with that author.

Machine is just a part of society of a bigger society created by Men for his requirements.
But it is created nevertheless. And Man alone is creativity.

All structures are forms of God including machines. When we break it down smaller and smaller you
will realize that 80 percent of it is really empty. Man still does not know realities of matter. He is left to guessing.
I have posted a thread on "wonderful world of quantum mechanics" out there. Its a good idea to understand what has been
going on in the science world to understand the emptiness of matter world. The outside world is a representation of the inside.
So you will get some idea if you are seekers to know what is in the inside of us?

Now if I go in to the origins of Man, some one will state this is just philosophy. Therefore I only answer the
questions on "Whys" privately to known person.


I respect Freud because he is the one who gave us words such as ego that the
west have been using so widely. But guess what majority is always fool LOL
For instance he says son has a instinct to sleep with his mother and all that bull **** .
He says that because he is objectively a part of mind analysing the whole mind.
If I get in to why he is wrong it will take several chapters.
Some of his other psycho analysis are good though I think.

He has not analysed a enlightened master in his whole life? How can he ? Perhaps he never got a chance to.
I haven't studied Freud in detail - perhaps will go to one of those free tutorials before commenting the authors views on him.


>>>tell me what you think of the quote in terms of us (mankind) being enslaved to ideas and lifestyles that are not
leading us to the ultimate enlightenment.

Yes this is true. Karl Marx (taurus) said the same. He said all ideas are prisons of mind in which a man lives and he is fooled
in to believing he is free. I want to add that he is free but unless he is awakened he does not know his freedom.

>>>>>intentionality is - the structure that gives meaning to our experiences. For example, someone
chooses to be in a love affair, intentionality questions what this love affair does for both partners. How
does it give their lives, prespectives on their individual lives and lives together, and overall
growth as a person, meaning? The center of that question, the HOW, is the intentionality.


I remember a reader who I don't wish to name for being accused of name calling reading Linda Goodman's books and preaching
that there is Osiris for every Isis. And I kept saying no. The Isis and Osiris must be meeting in your heart.
There must be a perfect balance. Marriage, Lovers etc are all external representations.

Each of us journey must be alone. Get rid of all dogmas. Isis and Osiris could be real kings and queens in Egypt who got mythologized.
Mind is fantastic in creating prisons for us. To keep us captivated. And it achieves that because we have not learnt to tame it yet.


And intentionality is indeed the structure that gives meaning to our experiences. If a boy is hit by a father from behind. He turns
around and sees the expression of his father. If he is happy he will not feel the pain. If he is angry then he will feel the pain.
The context is important. The context influences his intentions. And he ends up acting on those intentions.

I think there is also a video link somewhere on the movie "What the bleep do we know". Again an understanding of quantum mechanics
and chemistry is required to appreciate what the authors are saying for the doubting toms. Do dount. No harm in that. But study all
contexts and then doubt. That is what a seeker must do.

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neptune5
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posted March 01, 2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neptune5     Edit/Delete Message
i understand we've talked about quite a few things up to now, but i don't really feel we've answered the question. So is it not worth believing in neither the bible nor the gnostic gospels because they present elements so contrary to the other?

the existance of both these texts and their contrary meanings just don't make any rational sense to me, i feel like somone or something is keeping the minds of humanity in the dark. It just seems like a trick of some kind. Thats what my intuition is telling me, am i wrong for feeling this way? Does anyone else feel this way?

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted March 01, 2008 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Supposedly there are many ancient texts locked up in the Vatican.

Yes, I think someone is hiding something.

But its not about figuring out what to believe.

Its about opening your heart and mind.

And contributing your own unique perspective.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted March 01, 2008 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you, Melody.

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Mannu
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posted March 01, 2008 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mannu     Edit/Delete Message
>>>> Thats what my intuition is telling me, am i wrong for feeling this way? Does anyone else feel this way?

Probably its not your intuitions but your fearful mind that is keeping you see the light. Our illusions makes even a rope look like a snake.

This is season of lent - catholic religion teaches one to fast and let temptations come to you one by one. You have to face each negative thoughts head on. Both Buddha and Jesus went thru the ultimate experience of the most negative mind and got totally demagnetised. No more thoughts of the mind could attach to them. I call them 'conqueror of their mind and ruler of their soul' from that point on. They realized the truth about themselves. And once you go thru that ultimate experience you will never fall back. Most stories in the bible are really symbolic including the 'Garden of Eden'. Some of the stories have been borrowed from ancient cultures existing then such as egypt and sumeria. The earth is not 2000 or 3500 or 10000 or 75000 years old. It is 4.5 billion years old and it will be around another 10 billion (who knows). Life of our sun is 10 billion year more. Therefore who knows how many times both you and I have come to earth during those times or will be coming again in the future. No not Jesus or Buddha in the future. Their feets cannot touch earth, for they must return to dust if they do. I doubt that they will want to become dust

The main essence of both books (mainstream and gnostic) are same. It teaches you liberation from body. They , also amongst many other things, documents examples set by Jesus that you can follow to become more intelligent and aware like him and be liberated from flesh forever.

The Vaticans from ancient times made sure that they have the right to administer what seekers of christianty must see and how much. And Just as US government controls the yearly budget from tax receipts. Perhaps Constantine collected donations as some kind of religious tax as christianity was getting popular in his time. That should keep the royal treasure filled up. Point is that any kind of Groupism will only lead you somewhere to a certain place. Beyond that you have to carry all alone. A self introspection and a self journey that you undertake is the only way to develop wings of awakening. May be in your journey a guru will come as a spouse, a child , a parent, a teacher (or messiah). These are ok upto a certain time. However the ultimate awakening must happen inside of you as an individual. Thats what is true freedom.


I have read the gnostic long ago. Can't remember much. But it does seem to me that they were essene (a sect of jews). Jesus and many of his followers were essene. I doubt that the vatican people are essene, hence you see a difference in their books. The romans used to have lots of ancient gods and they did not completely give up their older gods but incorporated christianity in to their religious pattern.

It is also very possible that Buddhism reached all the way to the mid-east and some of the people who captured what Jesus spoke were followers of buddhism. Remember buddhism was almost six hundred years before Jesus. Hence the gnostic writers perhaps grasped Jesus more than the mainstream authors (referring to tax collector - Matthew and others) and thats why they wrote something much more.

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