posted November 25, 2008 09:04 PM         

32 ‘Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven;
33 but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.
Not Peace, but a Sword

posted November 25, 2008 09:23 PM         

Good to have it thrown in the mix!

juni

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~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 26, 2008 03:39 AM         

quote:

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A carpenter's tools were having a conference. Brother Hammer was presiding, but the others informed him that he'd have to leave because he was too noisy. "All right," he said, "I'll go, but Brother Plane must withdraw too. There's no depth to his work. It's always on the surface." Brother Plane responded, "Well, Brother Rule will also have to go. He's constantly measuring people as if he were the only one who's right." Brother Rule complained about Brother Sandpaper, saying, "He's always rubbing people the wrong way."
In the midst of the discussion the Carpenter of Nazareth entered. He went to His workbench to make a pulpit from which He would preach the gospel. He used the hammer, the plane, the rule and the sandpaper. All were important in their own way.

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You got it, juni.

That's all I've ever been trying to say.

posted November 26, 2008 03:59 AM         

quote:

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*Dial-up is my enemy.

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quote:

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quote:
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The concept of an enemy,
and belief in the enemy,
doesnt seem to be going away.
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Oh really? Hmm. Very interesting.
For whom? And why not?

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paging doctor Freud, lol

I see what you're trying to say, and its very clever and all that.

I guess, I mean, for me, yes, but also for everyone I can think of.

And you may be right, that may just be an error in my thinking.

But, it seems to me the world is full of personal conflicts which,
although we can certainly see the eventual good in them,
are characterized by horrors which, were we in their presence,
would not find us so blaise about their existence.
What people are doing to people all over the world is beyond sick.

I can't help thinking that what you are suggesting
is that we bury our heads in our own backyards,
and create a safe little echo-chamber that takes no account of
what the world is really like and what people are thinking in the world.

quote:

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"Reclaiming 'them'" ?

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Freudian type-o.

quote:

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What's taking so long?

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Indeed. What is?
All over the world, wars are raging.
Perhaps, for you, it has become a non-issue,
but I wonder if some of us have a calling
to confront these issues as they exist in the world,
rather than preserve our personal, isolationist philosophies
(which may work fine, if one's aim and concern is only to secure one's own happiness,
but which tend to lose relevance when we are directed into more public areas of endeavor).

Like everyone else, I can only articulate it in my own crude, biased way.
But what I suspect is that we are both partly correct, and both have a different part to play,
in correcting the world, and in correcting each other.

quote:

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quote:
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Or do we just have to try to somehow block it out?
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You cant block out the sun.

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Really?
What do you call nighttime?

Sure, the sun keeps on shining...

But the earth keeps on turning.

Thats why I speak about reclaiming, rather than denying.

posted November 26, 2008 04:14 AM         

quote:

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Matthew 10:32-39

32 ‘Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven;
33 but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.
Not Peace, but a Sword

34 ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.

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Good one, NosiS.

This is a lovely and profound passage.

It is a shame to think that it has been misused,
more than any other passage in the Bible I can think of,
to justify the use of violence in the name of love.

We all think we understand these things.
And its true, we have some very definite notions of what it means to love,
to be loving, to be good, to think right thoughts, to live righteously,
but then we find everybody else has different ideas of what these things mean.

And we all feel justified in putting our own ideas first,
because we are so convinced they are the right ones,
and, anyway, didnt Christ say, "f*ck everyone and everything
and put the truth (i.e. me) first, before anyone or anything?"

The words are useful in their context..
But it seems like only Jesus was certain of their proper context, or contexts, --
or, at least, of the contexts in which he understood them at various times.
Once you take them out of context, they can be used to mean anything.
These abstract truths must be partnered to the appropriate
particular behaviors, in their approproate particular situations.
And since all situations are in some way unique, can we really depend on any rules,
let alone on abstract rules, which may just as easily be misapplied as well applied?

Speaking of "The Purpose of the Devil"...

"The devil can quote scripture to his purpose."

posted November 26, 2008 04:37 AM         

Let us be careful, lest we mean,

"It's all my perspective."

Or, rather, let us understand these words soberly,
since, in at least one sense, it is all our perspective.

Focusing on one's own perspective should also mean
"putting one's own perspective in perspective".
And that means taking into account the perspectives of others.
Not just labelling and dismissing them as categorically false,
but, finding the seed of truth which they are expressing in themselves;
and not merely dismissing them and calling that the lesson.

posted December 02, 2008 02:44 AM         

Am I not to forgive my enemies, or am I to find fault in them? I've met many an enemy in my life that have turned out to be some of my best friends. They can't help it sometimes, they just need someone to care and show them the way, at least that's been my luck in my life.

Wish I had my Kipling quote, I'll put it in my signature line asap.

posted December 06, 2008 08:33 AM         

Juni, I love that story, and knew straight away that it must've been from Daf. I swear this place misses him, but I think he's still here occasionally. Another story of his that I often think about, was about learning patience by eating a bag of seeds one by one. Might not have been seeds.

NosiS, I love that passage, but don't understand how people can read so violently into it. To set a man against his father, and daughter against her mother sounds like puberty, not war. The point is obviously to put things into perspective, as has often been mentioned here.

quote:

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those who lose their life for my sake will find it

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This isn't about death, but really about foresaking your life for the higher "good". ForeSake! For Goodness Sake. For Godness Sake. Why do we do stuff? For our own sake? Does anyone try to see the bigger picture? One of my biggest annoyances about religions is that people seem to use them to think for themselves, or to instruct them on what to do, but really, people need to be themselves. How else can God be God, if we, as angels, do not provide every angle? Do we really need to do this through conflict? If we are pupppets, then there are no right or wrong decisions, and no real experiences. To be the sword is to be the action that will enable you to be who you are. I think that this metaphor is akin to discipline - not justification to kill.

Heaps of Love,
Dean.

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I realized it for the first time in my life:
there is nothing but mystery in the world,
how it hides behind the fabric of our poor,
browbeat days, shining brightly, and we don't even know it.

Sue Monk Kidd, "The Secret Life of Bees", p79