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Author Topic:   RIGHTEOUS ANGER!!!
Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 25, 2008 11:51 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Does it exist?

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted November 25, 2008 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Sure but are we Spiritually evolved enough to know the difference much less Taste it?

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 25, 2008 01:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message
quote:

Sure but are we Spiritually evolved enough to know the difference much less Taste it?
juni


I know I'm not.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 25, 2008 01:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Here's the thing...

If the wise people justify their anger,
how can we expect fools not to follow suit?

And if fools are not evolved enough to know the difference,
surely, they will assume they are justified when they are not.

So, isnt it irresponsible to direct anger at a person, regardless of our motives,
since it will only be likely to provoke the person you are trying to enlighten?

And if the very thing you wish to cure him of is his provocative nature,
it would appear dishonest to attempt this by being provocative yourself.

But I really don't know.

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted November 25, 2008 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
If the wise people justify their anger,
how can we expect fools not to follow suit?


I have never known a truely "wise" person who justifys anger... perhaps we have a different definition of wise?

But in light of your question, anger is anger and is not justifiable in the Spiritual sense so both are unwise fools.

Many times we are fooled by what appears to be anger in another when it is not.

juni


------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 25, 2008 02:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Juni,

I asked, "Does RIGHTEOUS ANGER exist."

You answered, "Sure."

And then suggested there is a distinction between righteous anger and nonrighteous anger.

And I'm assuming you mean that a wise person could tell the difference?

Now you seem to be saying all anger is bad and a wise person discards it.

???

"Many times we are fooled by what appears to be anger in another when it is not."

You don't fool me, juni.

But seriously,
what appears to be anger and is not?

If a wise person knows the fool will be fooled,
why would the wise person use methods likely to fool him?

Then he is the one responsible for the fool's misjudgement,
since he was not ignorant of the potential for misunderstanding,
and therefor not innocent of the misunderstanding that occurred
as a result of his expression of what he knew would very likely be received as anger.

Its like, why talk in a language you know a person wont understand?

Why use words that you know are offensive in his language?

Is that skillful?

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AcousticGod
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posted November 25, 2008 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
So, isnt it irresponsible to direct anger at a person, regardless of our motives,
since it will only be likely to provoke the person you are trying to enlighten?

And if the very thing you wish to cure him of is his provocative nature,
it would appear dishonest to attempt this by being provocative yourself.

But I really don't know.


I'll opine. I believe the purpose is to achieve the residual thinking that happens when someone gets emotionally invested in something. If Righteous Person (RP) stirs the anger of Foolish Person (FP), RP knows FP will stew on the subject for awhile. If RP is lucky FP's private thoughts will eventually confirm RP's point, and the emotion will serve to integrate the new knowledge.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 26, 2008 02:37 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Not a bad answer, AG.

I have more thinking to do on this.

Seems to me that we are pretty well aware of most of our own problems,
and when people think they are brilliantly informing us of something,
they are just clumsily poking at our open wounds and sore spots,
judging and guilting us for things which we already judge and guilt ourselves for,
and already exhibit signs of trying to overcompensate for.

And while they may imagine that their provocation is what is needed,
it may in fact be the very thing that rendered us immobile to begin with.
Everyone thinks they are qualified to be some kind of spiritual surgeon,
but aren't we all using hatchets as scalpels, and scalpels as paintbrushes?

Is anybody qualified?

Know what I'm talking about?

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AcousticGod
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posted November 26, 2008 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Sounds like you're bringing it to the realm of merely personal disputes, whereas I was talking more generally.

quote:
Everyone thinks they are qualified to be some kind of spiritual surgeon,
but aren't we all using hatchets as scalpels, and scalpels as paintbrushes?

Is anybody qualified?

Know what I'm talking about?


I do, but I don't see myself as taking their counsel when that's the case. In a dispute with such a person they'd have to prove their argument was superior to mine just to have a chance of breaking through.

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heart cakes
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posted November 28, 2008 10:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted November 29, 2008 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
I noted we don`t have a common definition of righteous anger

I am interested in how we are defining it!

I use it in the Hebrew as it is used in the Holy Text.

The Hebrew word for righteousness is tseh'-dek, tzedek, (Gesenius's Strong's Concordance:6664)—

righteous, integrity, equity, justice, straightness.

The root of tseh'-dek is tsaw-dak', (Gesenius's Strong:6663)

—upright, just, straight, innocent, true, sincere. It is best understood as the product of upright, moral action in accordance with some form of divine plan.

My intended meaning is of the root in 6663:

It is best understood as the product of upright, moral action in accordance with some form of divine plan.

So HSC, no, I don`t believe I have tasted it either.

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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juniperb
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posted November 29, 2008 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
heart cakes, thank you for sharing!

You sound like you have endured much and survived well

This thread reminds me of the Mystic Ibn Arabi and his Teachings.

What the Seeker Needs

If you wish to find the truth and have God/Allah's pleasure and support in it, then avoid being negative and control your temper and anger. If you cannot stop anger, at least do not show it. When you do this, you will please God/Allah and disappoint the devil. You will begin to educate your ego and straighten and shorten your path. Anger is a result and a sign of the ego not being under control, like a mean wild animal untied and uncaged. As you hold your temper, it is as if you put a bridle on its head and barriers around it. You begin then to tame it, teach it how to behave, to obey, so that it cannot hurt others or itself (because it is a part of you).

When this discipline reflects from you, revealing someone who can control his temper and hold his anger, your adversary will be calmed. You will not be reacting to his provocations. You will not be punishing him or responding to his negativity, but ignoring it. This is more effective than punishing him. He may be led to see the reality of his acts, to realize what is fair, and to confess his faults.

What the Seeker Needs
Ibn Arabi, 1200

This statement is what holds me straight:

quote:
You begin then to tame it, teach it how to behave, to obey, so that it cannot hurt others or itself ( because it is a part of you).

Further, this discipline is perhaps what leads us to the higher ground of spiritual, moral and ethical realms of righteous anger?

juni


------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 29, 2008 12:44 PM           Edit/Delete Message
What is the definition of "anger", juni?

Or "righteous anger", since that is the topic.

We should define both words separately.

But what we want is to understand if these two words belong together.

What would righteous anger look like, if it were possible?

What would its purpose be?

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted November 29, 2008 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
HSC, would you give us your intent and definition as you used it in the title of this thread :

RIGHTEOUS ANGER

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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ListensToTrees
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posted November 29, 2008 01:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I think righteous anger can exist, as we are all human and it is only natural to get angry sometimes at some of the things we must face in the world. But it is always best if anger can be limited/ controlled by wisdom.

I can't help it...it must be that firey DNA in my blood from my Celtic roots.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 29, 2008 03:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Interesting, LTT.


Juni,

I can only define it in the abstract,
as "anger expressed righteously,"
or "righteousness expressed angrily."

I'm not really attempting to go further,
since, I am not suggesting such a thing exists,
and have no idea what it would look like if it did.

If you think it exists, please, tell me your definition.
Because the term remains thoroughly ambiguous to me,
and, to my thinking, resists a concrete definition.

If you'd like to define free will while you're at it,..

Feel free, lol.

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juniperb
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From: Blue Star Kachina
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posted November 29, 2008 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
I don`t have an acceptable answer for all... but

This is what works for me.

You already have my definition of righteous so using the Hebrew again with the word anger

Anger, an English abstract word, is actually the Hebrew word ŕó (awph) which literally means “nose”, as a concrete word.
When one is very angry, he begins to breath hard and the nostrils begin to flare. A Hebrew sees anger as “the flaring of the nose (nostrils)”.If the translator of the Bible literally translated a passage “slow to nose”, it would make no sense to the English reader, so ŕó, a nose, is translated to “anger” in the passages.

Candidly, I found that funny but it shows how fickle word translations and usages are.

Anger also means sorrow and grief.






anger:
Lexicon: s(k

Noun Masculine

Definition
anger, vexation, provocation, grief
vexation
of men
of God
vexation, grief, frustration

ETYMOLOGY:

Middle English, from Old Norse angr, sorrow; see angh- in Indo-European roots

A excellent example of righteous anger/grief/sorrow is given in Jesus and the money changers:


Mat 21:12
And Jesus entered into the temple of God, and did cast forth all


those selling and buying in the temple, and the tables of the money-changers he overturned, and the seats of those selling the doves,

Mar 11:15

And they come to Jerusalem, and Jesus having gone into the temple, began to cast forth those selling and buying in the temple, and the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those selling the doves, he overthrew,
Jhn 2:14

and he found in the temple those selling oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
Jhn 2:15

and having made a whip of small cords, he put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,



Just one view

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

- George Eliot

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted November 30, 2008 06:06 AM           Edit/Delete Message
LEXX has a good theory on the money changers story, you should hear it.

According to her, there were two men named Jesus who came to prominence,
and whose biographies and teachings became entangled into one.

I believe she says the Jesus of unconditional love and nonresistance
is not the man who whipped the sick merchants in the temple.

I think the translation into "sorrow, grief" is fascinating.

There is something so human about Judaism.

The primal, psalmal, cry to the Father.

Submission, but in that submission, a wrestling.

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:
but I will maintain mine own ways before him."
(Job 13:15)

The translation of anger into vexation is more disturbing.

Don't the Buddhists consider anger a poison to the heart?

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lotusheartone
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posted November 30, 2008 06:14 AM           Edit/Delete Message
hey, go within..the story is there..
and LEXX is not right!

I am leaving, you all make me crazy..
because you cannot see..

well...

you will see soon...

All my love, with all my heart
To ALL. ...

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D for Defiant
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posted December 23, 2008 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D for Defiant     Edit/Delete Message
HSC, will you still come back to this thread?

I personally think the whole idea and the questions asked are all too abstract for me. I'm not saying they're not good, I'm just saying they're too "out there" for me.

Anger is also associated with hate.

I personally believe in a certain situations, anger can be justified, and can be understandable. Anger can be provoked by an individual who has intentionally harmed a loved one or yourself. Even more so when it's a loved one. We all have the potential of being provoked, it's only natural. But anger's justifiability depends on the given case.

Indeed, anger is negativity. Negativity is better recognized and dealt with than repressed.

Unconscious anger should be explored so it becomes conscious, thereby the person becomes at least aware of his/her anger.

Repressed anger is worse than released anger. Because it is yet to be recognized. And it is self-denial. It is better to express anger in legally and socially acceptable ways than repressing one's anger and lying to oneself and those around him/her that s/he is not angry. That's self-denial, not enlightenment.

Then there comes silent rage. I'd feel calm and yet I'd know I have fury inside me toward a certain individuals who have done something really bad on purpose and a certain condition.

Most of the time, even if I am having a quarrel with another person, I remain calm and peaceful, not losing my temper or feeling that surging rage, after having witnessed utter barbarity, hypocrisy, and discovered the alpha and the omega of the universal mystery, of my own karma, of my shared karma with my significant other, and of all the lies in various fields of human endeavors.

Even when I am debating with someone on the Internet, over some heated disagreement, I feel calm. I don't try hard to "control" my temper. I simply feel calm. I feel more silent rage these days, however. Nonetheless, most of the time I can keep my cool. I have a much cooler head now.

Anger is considered one of the five vices in Hinduism and one of the five passions in Sikhism, but to me, anger is not exactly a vice or a taboo. It is human. Controlling your temper is the first step to becoming more civilized in your manners, and applying more logic and common sense to your interactions with others and with your inner self. Only when you have come to terms with a great deal of things in life can you truly minimize your anger, or completely eliminate it from your life.

I am reluctant to admit it nowadays, but I am a perfectionist. I get annoyed easily by clumsiness, carelessness and unprofessionalness. I am quite irritable when it comes to errors. But I have a much smaller temper now.

I personally think under some circumstances, anger is justifiable, therefore righteous anger does exist for me. Although rage should not be encouraged, it should not be denied, either.

And yes, being a non-Buddhist, I believe anger poisons your whole being, as any other form of negativity does.

D

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D for Defiant
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posted December 24, 2008 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D for Defiant     Edit/Delete Message
I still cannot view my own post due to possible cache, so I cannot even edit it to correct the English language-related mistake(s) I've made. I'll try again soon.

Happy holiday!

D

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted December 24, 2008 10:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Definitions are funny.

"A unicorn is a horse with one horn in the center of its forehead."

This would be an acceptable definition for a unicorn,
except that it ignores the fact that horses dont have horns,
and unicorns do not, in fact, exist.

Perhaps the same may be said of "righteous anger"?

Sure, we can define it, but, does that make it less of a myth?


He that will be angry for anything will be angry for nothing. ~ Sallust

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MyVirgoMask
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posted December 25, 2008 04:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MyVirgoMask     Edit/Delete Message
I like being angry, it gets me out of ruts

Anger justified...and righteous.

I don't feel anger is negative. Saying it is would be a judgment. Why would I do that? There is justifiable anger. The anger of an abused woman who one day wakes up and realizes what's been happening to her, and who gets angry enough to go and do something about it, and changes her life. Yes, perhaps we can argue that well, she's got herself to blame for getting into an abusive situation, but that doesn't make the anger any less justifiable. Hell no.

Anger is fuel. Anger is beautiful.
I'm tipping the scale here.

Buddhism believes in a state emptiness, but that emptiness isn't attained out of a state of nothingness...it's attained through a series of everything. Sadness is defined by joy. Despair is defined by hope. Anger is defined by calm. The extremes need each other in order to be defined BY one another. How would you know you were calm if you didn't experience anxiety, or anger? Love is defined by hate. Saints need sinners (sorry, I'm a huge Alan Watts fan).

Nothing wrong with ANY emotion. I'm pretty sure Buddhists never say you shouldn't be
angry - just don't be defined by it. But it must be experienced. It's a baptismal immersion which makes you fully aware. And when you are aware, you are able to relate. And when you can relate, you have compassion. You can *justifiably* understand why someone hates just as well as why someone loves. Not from a theoretical, abstract point of view. But from your heart. Where it counts.

We should surrender to our emotions and know that they pass, because they do. Emotions change constantly. I don't for a second believe in trying to remain calm. The more I try, the more ****** off I get. It doesn't feel authentic to me, this enforced calm. I don't try to control my feelings anymore, just my behavior.
Experience it all and let it flow through you, and move on. Why try to be anything more or anything less than you are? All anger and emotions are justifiable. Compassion becomes accessible. The root words basically mean to suffer with. Why would you deny yourself of such a thing as emotions, especially anger???


PS - Surrender. That's actually the key word to Islam, by the way. Surrender to god. That's what the literal translation means. I just thought I'd point that out as someone who was born Muslim but who is very happily agnostic, but who is also a Muslim at heart.

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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted December 25, 2008 11:04 AM           Edit/Delete Message
The law of polarity is not fatalistic.

By aquaintance with it, an individual may use one end of a pole in order to gravitate towards the other end.

At least, this is the Hermetic teaching found in The Kybalion.

I dont disagree that anger is natural and has its apparent uses,
but, I wonder, is it ever really the best and only way?

Perhaps love may be equally rousing and motivating,
and equally capable of honing our empathy and perception?

I think surrendering to anger must mean letting it pass.

I posted this about a year and a half ago:

I was troubled in my heart with anger,
and I asked the Lord to show me a sign,
and this book was close by, so I opened it.
This is the very passage my eyes fell upon.
Perhaps it may be of assistance to others as well:

"This adversary (ours and God's) knows that the ruler of the excitable part is the thinking power. Consequently, he directs his first arrows against it by means of thoughts, as I have said, of suspicion, envy, argumentativeness, quarrelsomeness, deceit, and vanity, and presses the mental power to abandon its natural authority and relinquish the reins of government to excitation itself, thus leaving it with no government. Then excitation, overthrowing its master, unrestrainedly pours out through the lips everything that the enemy [Satan] had previously implanted in the heart, and concealed there by means of thoughts allowed by negligence of mind. Then the heart shows itself as filled, not with the Spirit of God and Divine Thoughts, but with unbridled malice, for, as the Lord says, 'of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh'. When in this way the evil one brings a man to the state when he pours out in words what was previously secretly devised within, then this captive of the enemy will not only say to his brother Raca or Fool, but will utter the most offensive things and may later even go as far as murder. These are the wiles used by the evil one in relation to the commandment given us by the Lord of not being angry... And yet it is possible not to come to offensive words and what follows if, immediately upon the appearance of the excitable suggestion, the thoughts, which inflame the heart, are driven away by prayer and attention to what takes place within. Thus this destroyer of souls attains his evil ends only when he finds a man ready to transgress the Divine commandments under the influence of thoughts introduced into his heart."

- Philotheus of Sinai
"Forty Texts On Sobriety" (text #16)
"Writings From THE PHILOKALIA On Prayer of the Heart"

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katatonic
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posted December 27, 2008 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"anger is a weapon if you know how to use it" - joe strummer.

"anger while not desirable is preferable to depression and apathy" abraham-hicks, (quote approximated)

i don't think anger which takes you over is ever righteous. if you "use it" for effect, it CAN be, though not necessarily. sometimes anger is the only way to get someone's attention when they are a) walking all over your boundaries b) hurting themselves or others...but if you IDENTIFY too much with it it hurts as much as it helps, and to me that's not righteous. still, it CAN clear the air when people have been in denial or suppressing their true feelings, and so i guess that could also be considered righteous IF the cleanup is done meticulously and to the benefit of all involved...

just my two cents. does anyone know what lotus keeps going on about? that none of us "SEE"??

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