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katatonic
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posted July 10, 2009 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i stumbled on a tv show last night... about a dig in peru that uncovered what MAY be the first civilization - and though archeologists thought people came together for protection from war and conflict, they discovered here NO SIGNS of warfare and a civilization that flourished for 1000 years...before egypt, before macchu picchu...
this is not a particularly new story but to me it is..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/HealthScience/The_mother_of_all_civ ilisations/articleshow/2625053.cms http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfJntU5C4yg

so those (majority) who believe man has ALWAYS waged war, that he grouped together out of fear and protection needs, that he is naturally covetous...might want to think again. 1000 years of peaceful trade and coexistence! apparently they enjoyed music, farmed(main cash crop - cotton), ate a lot of fish, took coca(!) for pleasure, trance and aphrodisiac purposes...and built this beautiful city in which they lived a civilized and peaceful life.

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Valus
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posted July 10, 2009 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

PUMA PUNKU

Pre-Incan Peruvian Ruins


The Ancient Structures

They are arguably the oldest and most baffling ruins on the face of the Earth. It is hard to imagine how they did not come to be known as one of the wonders of the world like the Great Pyramid. Spectacular in its own right, the Great Pyramid pales in comparison to the ruins of Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco, in South America.

The ruins of Puma Punku are one of four structures in the ancient city of Tiahuanaco. The other three structures are; The Akapana Pyramid, the Kalasasaya Platform, and the Subterranean Temple

Even with modern day technology and information, these structures defy logic, and confound those who seek to solve the mysteries that lie within them. The ruins of Puma Punku are said to be the most fascinating, and most confusing of all.

What Makes The Ruins Unique?

It is highly unlikely that any of the stones in Puma Punku were cut using ancient stone cutting techniques, at least not those that we are aware of.

The stones in Puma Punku are made up of granite and diorite, and the only stone that is harder that those two, is the diamond. If the people who built this place cut these stones using stone cutting techniques, then they would had to have used diamond tools. If they didn't use diamonds to cut these stones, then what did they use?

Not only were these stones really hard to cut, but they are also extremely heavy. One of these stone ruins weighs in at about 800 tons! These are big stones, and they are really heavy. The nearest quarry is at least 10 miles away from the site of the ruins. How in the world did these people move these blocks that weighed many tons, and how were they able to form a structure with them?

With the technology that we currently have today, it would be extremely difficult to recreate the site of these ruins, if possible at all. If we can't do it, then how did these ancient people accomplish this task? This could have taken place anywhere from 500 b.c. all the way back to the Ice Age.

These ancient people had to have been very sophisticated, knowing astronomy, geomancy, and mathematics. However, there are no records of this work. To build a place like Puma Punku, there must have been significant planning, and writing involved, but there is no record of any of this.


Interlocking Stones

There is one more significant thing to mention regarding the ruins of Puma Punku. Not only were these stones cut somehow, but they were finely cut. The cuts on these stones are perfectly straight. The holes cored into these stones are perfect, and all of equal depth.

How is it that these ancient people were able to cut stones like this?

It is as if only master builders were allowed to come in and construct Puma Punku. All of the blocks are cut so that they interlock, and fit together like a puzzle. There is no mortar. There are only great stones that once fit together creating a structure some four levels high.

If these people could have moved these large stones to this precise location, then obviously they also had a way to place them one on top of another, but how in the world was this accomplished?

There are no trees in the area, the nearest quarry is at least 10 miles away, and we have no records as to how any of this could have been done. As far as most are concerned, there is no way that the Andean people could have done this 2500 years ago. If they couldn't have done it, how is it possible that an even older group of people accomplished it?


http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco

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Valus
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posted July 10, 2009 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message


Puma Punku, truly startles the imagination. It seems to be the remains of a great wharf (for Lake Titicaca long ago lapped upon the shores of Tiahuanaco) and a massive, four-part, now collapsed building. One of the construction blocks from which the pier was fashioned weighs an estimated 440 tons (equal to nearly 600 full-size cars) and several other blocks laying about are between 100 and 150 tons. The quarry for these giant blocks was on the western shore of Titicaca, some ten miles away. There is no known technology in all the ancient world that could have transported stones of such massive weight and size. The Andean people of 500 AD, with their simple reed boats, could certainly not have moved them. Even today, with all the modern advances in engineering and mathematics, we could not fashion such a structure.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm


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Valus
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posted July 10, 2009 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
You should read The Chalice and The Blade, katatonic. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003812.html There were numerous Partnership Societies before the dominator paradigm took hold. Minoan civilization, on the island of Crete, was probably the last great stronghold of the partnership model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

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katatonic
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posted July 11, 2009 05:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
well according to the program, as i'm no archeological expert, the ruling paradigm has been that every civilization has BEGUN because of warfare, with defenses at LEAST from attack, but artwork depicting war, evidence of aggression and fear inbuilt in the society - enough to make them believe protection and territory were the main reasons for civilization to begin in the first place.

caral is important because it appears to be the MOTHER city, ie, the starting point of a civilization, and stunned them by not having ANY provisions - even defensive walls - and NO evidence of conflict whatsoever.

"Evans argued that there is little evidence for ancient Minoan fortifications. But as S. Alexiou has pointed out (in Kretologia 8), a number of sites, especially Early and Middle Minoan sites such as Aghia Photia, are built on hilltops or are otherwise fortified. As Lucia Nixon said, "...we may have been over-influenced by the lack of what we might think of as solid fortifications to assess the archaeological evidence properly. As in so many other instances, we may not have been looking for evidence in the right places, and therefore we may not end with a correct assessment of the Minoans and their ability to avoid war"

it seems the minoans were at the very least ready for attack from without even if they were a peaceful society themselves but

were they into human sacrifice? isn't that what the minotaur was all about? which was another thing they did not find here...

but i will look up the book for sure!

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katatonic
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posted July 11, 2009 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
"According to A. B. Cook, Minos and Minotaur are only different forms of the same personage, representing the sun-god of the Cretans, who depicted the sun as a bull. He and J. G. Frazer both explain Pasiphae's union with the bull as a sacred ceremony, at which the queen of Knossos was wedded to a bull-formed god, just as the wife of the Tyrant in Athens was wedded to Dionysus. E. Pottier, who does not dispute the historical personality of Minos, in view of the story of Phalaris, considers it probable that in Crete (where a bull-cult may have existed by the side of that of the labrys) victims were tortured by being shut up in the belly of a red-hot brazen bull. The story of Talos, the Cretan man of brass, who heated himself red-hot and clasped strangers in his embrace as soon as they landed on the island, is probably of similar origin.


The bronze "Horned God" from Enkomi, CyprusA historical explanation of the myth refers to the time when Crete was the main political and cultural potency in the Aegean Sea. As the fledgling Athens (and probably other continental Greek cities) was under tribute to Crete, it can be assumed that such tribute included young men and women for sacrifice. This ceremony was performed by a priest disguised with a bull head or mask, thus explaining the imagery of the Minotaur. It may also be that this priest was son to Minos.

Once continental Greece was free from Crete's dominance, the myth of the Minotaur worked to distance the forming religious consciousness of the Hellene poleis from Minoan beliefs." (wikipedia)

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