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Author Topic:   When BAD things happen to Good People
raj_105_2001
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posted August 30, 2002 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This book by Ken Blanchard is worth a read. It speaks a lot of sense.

The author attempts to explain why terrible, evil things happen to perfectly good, pious, god fearing people. He rejects all explanations of them as 'part of god's plan' as fallacy - he explains God didn't create 'something out of nothing' - he took a chaos that existed already and is building it into order - and the apparent bad things happening to good people - are part of the chaos. When an earthquake happens, the earthquake is not the act of God, but the courage of the people facing it, and the kindness of those who rush to help ARE acts of God. God is still working on the chaos.

In Indian Mysticism, we have an equally unsatisfactory and disgusting answer as the christian 'part of god's plan' - which we all are already familiar of - Karma. While I don't say whether Karma is theoretically correct or incorrect, attempting to explain all miseries perfectly innocent people suffer in terms of Karma, is as one would say 'throwing knife on a burning wound' - it sounds as fallacious as christian god plan. Rather sufferings as part of the chaos is a perfectly legitimate and consoling proposition. Yet, it is so easy and simple to blame it on something 'out there in the karmic past'. If at all, someone's child loses a leg in an accident, and a mystic appears and says "millenia and millenia ago in the rome, you worked as a street soldier, you took away the legs of a peasant, that is why your child lost his leg" - I hope the person would have the guts to tell the mystic "i clearly dont remember taking away anyone's leg - if i was there millenia ago now, i wouldn't have taken away the peasant's leg - if you can show me the peasant now, i will give him enough compensation - that seems more appropriate instead of tic for tat." I am not sure whether the mystic would be able to answer it. To be karma seems very pointless - why should someone suffer when he clearly doesn't know any responsibility for it? Imagine someone being taken to the court sentence and when asked what his crime is he is told - "6,323 births ago you stole money from the prosecutor's purse" - how funny it is!

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Sineya
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posted August 30, 2002 07:14 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Raj,
The idea of Karma is not nearly as fallacious as you make it sound. First of all, just because you dont' remember doing something does not negate your responsibility for doing it. For instance, if one day you are in a bad mood and you off handedly make a nasty remark to one of your friends without thinking about it and forget about it the next day you will still have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Karma is consequence. If in a past live (which are possible to remember with practive by the way) you stole from someone, you are going to have something stolen from you in this life. The universe doesn't care how or who, it just makes sure that it happens. Your soul or Higher S-elf remembers all of you're past lives anyway and your soul is the one who is behind everything while you are paying the consequences for your own Free Will actions.

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Randall
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posted August 31, 2002 03:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting discussion.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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raj_105_2001
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posted August 31, 2002 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who said Karma is fallacious? I didn't. But using it to 'explain away' the miseries of good people is what I am against.

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juniperb
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posted August 31, 2002 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Karma has gotten a bad name for it`s self in recent times. ly overused & unjustified. I DO believe in karma, but also lifes lessons we came here to learn and throw a little s*** happens in the mix and, well I humbly believe we have a human life.
juniperb

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Randall
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posted September 01, 2002 03:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 01, 2002 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Karma is most often used to rationalize sufferings. In fact, it has been the heaviest use of the concept.

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Randall
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posted September 02, 2002 02:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Under such arguments, why should we help anyone? It's just their bad Karma causing suffering.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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aquamoon
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posted September 02, 2002 03:57 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the Universe leads by example. According to Universal Law, revenge is pointless, harmful and wrong, correct?

So how does Karma fit in with this Law? As you sow, so shall you reap. If you didn't sow very well, you're not going to reap well either. That sounds rather like *** for tat, wouldn't you say?

So then, how do I learn not to inflict pain on another, without the inherent understanding that pain isn't a pleasant sensation?

When's the last time you saw a homeless, starving man on the road and felt terrible for him?
What would you say if you knew that this man was the cruel landlord who threw you out of your house when your wife just gave birth and you had no place else to go?
You'd probably say, 'Now you know how it feels to not have any place to live, you son of a she-dog!'

First off, that emotion is not going to help you grow. Compassion and empathy for that man IS!
Second, the Universe is not avenging itself on the poor old man. It is helping him understand how it feels to be homeless. Through the pain and the hardships, the lesson of understanding and empathy will be instilled in this man and he may go on to open a home for destitute children in the future.
Also, it has broken the chain of Karma between you and that man, because instead of wanting to hurt him back, you feel compassion and tenderness.

So! The Universe has actually achieved two things at one time - it has taught the man who hurt you what he needed to learn, and it has taught you to forgive. So you have both grown. NO revenge! And lessons still learnt all round. Wise old owl, ay??

I'm not implying that people deserve rubbish happening to them, it is just that Karma is all about learning and NOTHING about being paid back for one's sins.


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aquamoon
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posted September 02, 2002 04:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, sorry. Am I not allowed to use that word? Asterisks for tat, hee hee!

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 02, 2002 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are people who instinctively feel "This should not have happened to me" - no matter what rationale (including Karma) tells them. You will understand this better if you read the book. Two murderers just released from prison decided outside life is no better than prison, so better return - they would kill the first person turning up at the gas station. Who turned up was not a President or Prime minister, but a taxi driver - he was shot - he had a wife and a child and no relatives. It is a real incident. Try explaining Karmic reasoning to the wife. It doesn't make sense. While the laws of reason and order may say the wife or the taxi driver must have suffered the result of some past karma- that is the only possible explanation - the truth could actually be - it is the beginning point of the murderer's karma - may be the two will be shot at a future time in a similar way.

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Swan song
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posted September 02, 2002 03:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I tend to believe that one person's Karma can be interrelated to several other people at once. When bad things happen to good people, how do we explain this? I'd like to think that it was all predestined, part of a plan set of events that was decided upon long before we incarnated.

For instance, my mom died of cancer when I was 10, leaving behind 4 children and a husband who wasn't too keen on having to raise us. She was not an evil person; in fact, she was one of the kindest, most gentle spirits I've ever known. Now, do I look at this and say, "Geez, my mom suffered with this pain, and all of us suffered from losing her; the universe is so unjust! I am angry, it doesn't make any sense."
OR, do I look at this and say, "My mom, in her physical self, certainly didn't want to leave us, but her soul had decided upon this - as had ours - long ago. We have so very many life lessons to learn, and this was her soul's contribution to us learning some of them." Through my mother's death and the chain of events that followed, I learned how to deal with huge losses in my life, and how to not blame others for my pain. I much prefer to look at life in this context, rather than sit back and get angry, thinking, "It's so unfair!" and being bitter throughout my life.

I think if we sit back and realize just how infimitessimally small our worlds really are...a lifetime is nothing more than the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things...then we could look at events around us a bit differently. Doesn't mean I'm not going to get upset about apparent injustices, that's a very human thing to do, but if we can learn to put things into context and realize that there really is a meaning for everything, then coping and developing compassion for others may come a bit easier.

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Randall
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posted September 02, 2002 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree Raj; we create new Karma from time to time.

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"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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aquamoon
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posted September 03, 2002 04:06 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Swan Song, that is very nicely put.

Raj, your last post provoked a good, long think. Here's what I came up with.

Perhaps the taxi driver and his wife were not targets as random as they seem on the surface of the situation.
As for the wife, hopefully she will be able to explain the karmic reasoning to herself so she can move on.

My point is that the circumstance would make more sense if we viewed Karma as our means to learn the lessons we need to in order to understand and accept emotions and situations that we donot (because we have never been in a situation that allows those emotions to be felt by us up until now), for the purpose of soul growth; RATHER THAN atonement or retribution for past misdemeanours/sins.

As for the new Karma aspect, I agree. But, here's a thought. Is it possible that if this man wanted to make new karma for himself, the Universe would arrange it so that his victims would be ones who have the most to learn/gain from the man's unenlightenment? Maybe the taxi driver wasn't planning to stop there at all and suddenly caught sight of this station and figured he might as well stop now rather than later at another gas station even though he had enough gas to take him a good way farther? I'm just wondering. Opinions welcome.

As for the murderers being shot in the same manner later......quite possible. Or they might have to live on and deal with the murder of someone precious. But this Karma depends to a great extent on the stage of enlightenment of the person to commit this murder and his FREE WILL choice NOT to. So! Karma Vs Free will?? Or are they intertwined?

I'm enjoying the different points of view. Good topic, Raj!

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 03, 2002 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my view, Karma doesn't stem from the attempts of Universe to balance the energy imbalances. Rather when Don hurts Dun in one Life, Dun re-members it subconsciously in the next life when he meets Don. He might consciously not aware of his venegance, yet at a subconscious level he would be keen at taking revenge - so he would somehow do it - unless he becomes conscious of it and stops it. It would have been 10,000 years ago when Don and Dun could have been tribal men when they fought for a piece of meat. May be if they re-membered it today, they would know what a foolish fight it was - in present life they would be millionaires - and the 'original venegance' is pointless. I believe the solution is not to 'pay back' but to recall and solve it in the present life. I am sure mystics won't like the idea - they would be out of business. The aura surrounding their mystical pronouncements of Karma would fade.

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 03, 2002 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Without reading the book, you would be incapable of understanding what I mean.

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Soma
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posted September 03, 2002 03:43 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Two travelling angels stopped to spend the night in the home of a wealthy family. The family was rude and refused to let the angels stay in the mansion's guestroom. Instead the angels were given a small space in the cold basement. As they made their bed on the hard floor, the older angel saw a hole in the wall and repaired it. When the younger angel asked why, the older angel replied,
"Things aren't always what they seem."

The next night the pair came to rest at the house of a very poor, but very hospitable farmer and his wife. After sharing what little food they had the couple let the angels sleep in their bed where they could have a good night's rest. When the sun came up the next morning the angels found the farmer and his wife in tears. Their only cow, whose milk had been their sole income, lay dead in the field. The younger angel was infuriated and asked the older angel how could you have let this happen? The first man had everything, yet you helped him, she accused. The second family had little but was willing to share everything, and you let the cow die.

"Things aren't always what they seem," the older angel replied. "When we stayed in the basement of the mansion, I noticed there was gold stored in that hole in the wall. Since the owner was so obsessed with greed and unwilling to share his good fortune, I sealed the wall so he wouldn't find it."

"Then last night as we slept in the farmers bed, the angel of death came for his wife. I gave him the cow instead. Things aren't always what they seem.“

Sometimes that is exactly what happens when things don't turn out the way they should. If you have faith, you just need to trust that every outcome is always to your advantage. You might not know it until some time later...

Some people come into our lives and quickly go…

Some people become friends and stay awhile...leaving beautiful footprints on our hearts...

and we are never quite the same because we have made a good friend!!

Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present!

I think this life is special...live and savour every moment...
This is not a dress rehearsal!

Take this little angel
And keep her close to you
She is your guardian angel sent to watch over you.


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~Life if Beautiful~

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aquamoon
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posted September 04, 2002 02:49 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Soma

Raj, that holds true for the kind of Karma that depends on the Free Will decision of another.
What about the kind of Karma that the Universe imposes on you? Like placing you in certain situations that don't depend on another person's willingness to mess with you? Poverty, unemployment etc.?

Yup, the book is on my list of stuff to read, but for now, I'd be more interested to hear what YOU think.

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 04, 2002 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Karma is never imposed on any soul. Infact, nothing is ever imposed on the soul. We tend to think the soul always chooses happy and pleasant lives - because that is how the rational mind chooses. Alas, no, the soul has a different way of 'thinking'. When you die and enter the white light, guides there will explain you (your soul) what has happened and you will allowed to choose your next life or remain in the spiritual plane its-elf incase you (your soul) wants it. Some of us, choose to meet God, some of us have numerous queries to ask the guides, some grieve for a long time in the spiritual plane because we are missing the loved ones - but eventually the soul chooses the next life out of its own choice - the guides are careful never to influence the soul's choices. The soul might choose to be homeless, or a poverty filled life - because in the spiritual plane, we tend to grieve for our sins too. Thus if you are now "paying back" it is not a trick from the Universe making you do it. It is what you have subconsciously chosen at a deeper spiritual level.

Add one more book to your list - Conversations with God - Book 3. God never spoke about Karma.

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aquamoon
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posted September 04, 2002 12:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We are saying the same thing here in different ways - except I don't like the idea of 'paying back'. I learn what I need to learn.
Are you not a part of the Universe? So would the Universe not have any part to play in your subconscious decision to live a poverty-stricken life?

If you think of it as paying back you will live a good life out of fear. If you think of it as learning in order to grow you will live the life of a good person. Same difference? It's all in your perspective.

I have read the book you just added to my list but I disagree with a lot of what it says. I tend to do that with books sometimes


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raj_105_2001
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posted September 06, 2002 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It proves you are insensitive.

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aquamoon
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posted September 06, 2002 11:59 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What does? I didn't mean to be.

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raj_105_2001
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posted September 07, 2002 07:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for raj_105_2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't say you meant to be sensitive.

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aquamoon
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posted September 07, 2002 09:08 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know. I said I did ...... oh, never mind!

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booda
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posted September 09, 2002 02:51 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Soma:

Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present!


This is great stuff, I made a large sign and put it on the fridge. Just wonderful!!


Karma in Christianity:

Jesus couldn't have put it better:

If someone slaps your cheek, turn and offer the other.

Karma erased and heaven -
one soul-mile closer.

Booda

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