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Author Topic:   On topic of Karma...
Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"I just feel it is a societal/religion excuse to have caste systems, and an excuse of the fortunate people and holier than thou self righteous, to go about guilt free when judging the less fortunate or suffering folks now and throughout so called "civilized" history."


I am not sure about reincarnation.
I have mixed feelings about it.
I like the books of Dr. Brian L. Weiss.

I have some doubts about reincarnation from an ethnic minority perspective.

I wonder about the origins of the beliefs of reicarnation. I would like when it began and why.

When it comes to reincarnation, I wonder if people had pastlife memories as other human species like Neanderthal,CroMagnon,Australopithecus,and Homo Erectus. Those are the early humans before Homo Sapiens existed.

also there are the Dalits in India

Dalit,Dr. Velu Annamalai who grew up as an Untouchable in India.

said the following:

"Let me find out what God he is? Who made me be an "untouchable"? Tell me what I did in my last life. I sure want to find out. OK. I sure want to talk to the God. Maybe I'll shoot him! Becasuse I know the life of an untouchable in India. But what the Aryans did, they made us completley dumb. Completely ignorant. Completely Illiterate. Completely poor. Completely weak in every sense of the word for 3000 years."

He doesn't believe in reincarnation. He definitely doesn't believe in Hinduism. He slams that whole culture and religion.

I think that minorities in countries tend to be resistant to reincarnation concepts. They might see reincarnation and religion as the root of the problem that leads to their oppression. Some might see it as comfort in a way. Take slavery for instance. When blacks were slaves, they turned to Christianity for hope of a better life and deliverance. Some blacks rejected Christianity because they thought it was the religion of the oppressors. These attitudes were also in the days of fighting for civil rights. Malcolm X rejected Christianity and decided to be a muslim. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's Christian faith was an inspiration for equality. It also made him speak out against American government in his later years when it came to the Vietnam War.
I don't think that either of these civil rights leaders believed in reincarnation.


Dr. Velu Annamalai - The Black Untouchables of India
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RJxyiWSwpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4rvbIGTLQY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5EhcDPkgC8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnAoFQyDkfo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lixiVF20s18&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTMZ5Z6c6_c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0XmXDfdVQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORuHFUmvX2w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OasgbYIac&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkOw-YEnMjU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mz_-ylbv60&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wws4VOd_HLw&feature=related

I read that many Dalits convert to other religions because they view Hinduism as being oppressive.

There are people that believe Mahondas "Mahatama" Gandhi was a racist....well..not actually a racist, but that he was normal as in racism was the norm back in the times that he lived. They believed that he started the movement because he didn't want to be treated like black people. I first read about this stuff in 2004, but I don't talk about it. I know that it would greatly anger people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeJQ1QXT2Lc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJsrAtbA0hs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRV8PYDIa8I

Here is stuff on Dalits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeifYS9jK6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkN0BgaJnR0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQO1uNhw_1s&feature=related

look how the Dalits:meaning "oppressed" (aka Untouchables) are treated there. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html http://www.untouchables.org/home.htm


Here is stuff on Gandhi and Dalits http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_603.shtml http://www.trinicenter.com/WorldNews/ghandi5.htm
http://www.robertbohm.com/analysis/indian_spirituality_and_the_mythic_gandhi.html
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082003/king_and_gandhi.htm

There can be various reasons about how the concept of karma came about.

Many people have created religious concepts to keep certain people in place.

religion was used for war

religion was used for killing by many

religion was used for slavery by many

religion was used for segregation by many

religion was used for interracial marriage bans

religion is used for gay marriage bans

religion is used to keep females in check/promote sexism

religion has always been used to control others and discriminate against them by many people

religion has been used to violate the human rights of others by many

maybe the karma,dharma,reincarnation concept set up to keep certain people in their place


------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Valus
Knowflake

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From:
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posted August 18, 2010 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

He's an inspiring guy, SunChild.

It shows how little outward things matter.

My compassion goes out to people who are missing arms and legs, but, even more than that, I have compassion for people who are lacking hope, faith, courage, resolve, or some other inner "limb" which would allow them to safely navigate their own interior depths. It's so much harder for us to see and to understand their condition. Perhaps, saying to a chronically depressed person "just think positive" is no less insensitive than saying to this man, "just get up and walk".

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Cancer/Scorpio729
Knowflake

Posts: 143
From: 6,000 feet above sea level
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posted August 18, 2010 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cancer/Scorpio729     Edit/Delete Message
Belief in God needs no religion. Every religion has dark facets where it is used as excuses for heinous acts. The belief of reincarnation in India is used in this way. I don't believe that proves reincarnation to be false, only used wrongly.

------------------
Echoes fade and memories die:
Autumn frosts have slain July

Still she haunts me, phantomwise,
Alice moving under skies
Never seen by waking eyes
- Lewis Carrol, Alice in Wonderland

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

I don't think anybody said that reincarnation has been proven to be false.

Lexx and I just merely made points that maybe reincarnation concept was made up to keep minorities in their place.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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LEXX
Moderator

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From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2010 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LEXX     Edit/Delete Message
The Karmic/sin concepts and reincarnation has been used, and is used for caste system/judging and to condone and justify abuses.

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SunChild
Moderator

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From: Melbourne. Victoria. Australia
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 19, 2010 03:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SunChild     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
My compassion goes out to people who are missing arms and legs, but, even more than that, I have compassion for people who are lacking hope, faith, courage, resolve, or some other inner "limb" which would allow them to safely navigate their own interior depths. It's so much harder for us to see and to understand their condition. Perhaps, saying to a chronically depressed person "just think positive" is no less insensitive than saying to this man, "just get up and walk".

I think that is what I needed to hear today ~ re: a slight issue with the ex.

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Cancer/Scorpio729
Knowflake

Posts: 143
From: 6,000 feet above sea level
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posted August 20, 2010 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cancer/Scorpio729     Edit/Delete Message
Oh, must have read your post wrong then

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katatonic
Knowflake

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From:
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posted August 21, 2010 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
re this: They believed that he started the movement because he didn't want to be treated like black people

in ghandi's time, and even a short while ago in present times (if not still amongst some older folk) the english, who were in control of india for years, called indians, and all darker skinned people "blacks". it was not reserved for negroid peoples. so ghandi not wanting to be treated like a "black" was in reference to the way the colonial english treated INDIANS not africans...(which was very similar to the way we americans treated our africans or the colonists treated all native africans).

i agree that reincarnation has been used by the establishment worldwide to excuse treating some as inferior...but i don't believe that negates reincarnation as a reality! any concept can be abused.

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Glaucus
Knowflake

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From: Sacramento,California
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posted August 21, 2010 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

There was stuff about when he was in South Africa and not want to be treated like blacks there which he had referred to as "kaffirs' which was an equivalent to the n'word.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
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posted August 21, 2010 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
shrugs

There can always be a possibility that the reincarnation concept stems from a conspiracy to control people and keep certain people in their place.

This is not far-fetched compared to all the conspiracy theories about illuminati,reptilians,aliens, and programming,vaccines,and AIDS that have been expressed in the forum.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind. http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
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posted August 21, 2010 04:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

more in regards to Gandhi:

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. might have heard the word of non-violence from Gandhi, but it is certain that Dr. King did not know the true colors of Mr. Gandhi. From the beginning to the end, M.K. Gandhi was loyal to imperialism. The Western news media and their Indian allies by a massive propaganda exercise created the illusion of sainthood around Gandhi and made people believe that he fought Apartheid in South Africa, and in the process of doing so developed a new method of non-violent struggle called satyagraha. Nothing is farther from the truth. Gandhi, for the major part of his life, worshipped British imperialism and too often proudly proclaimed himself a lover of the Empire. He was Kipling's Gunga Din in flesh and blood.

To understand Gandhi's politics in South Africa, it is essential to note the three fundamental trends which all along persisted underneath all his activities. They were: (1) his loyalty to the British Empire, (2) his apathy with regard to the Indian "lower castes", India's indigenous population, and (3) his virulent anti-African racism.

Gandhi was once thrown out of a train compartment which was reserved exclusively for the Whites. It was not that Gandhi was fighting on behalf of the local Africans that he broke the rule in getting into a Whites' compartment. No! that was not the reason. Gandhi was so furious that he and his merchant caste Indians (Banias) were treated on par with the local Africans. This is the real reason for his fighting race discrimination in South Africa, and he had absolutely no concern about the pitiable way the Africans were treated by the Whites. On June 2, 1906 he commented in the Indian Opinion that "Thanks to the Court's decision, only clean Indians (meaning upper caste Hindu Indians) or colored people other than Kaffirs, can now travel in the trains."

During the `Kaffir Wars' in South Africa he was a regular Gunga Din, who volunteered to organize a brigade of Indians to put down the Zulu uprising and was decorated himself for valor under fire.

Gandhi said on September 26, 1896 about the African people: "Ours is one continued struggle sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness."

Again in an editorial on the Natal Municipal Corporation Bill, in the Indian Opinion of March 18, 1905, Gandhi wrote: "Clause 200 makes provision for registration of persons belonging to uncivilized races (meaning the local Africans), resident and employed within the Borough. One can understand the necessity of registration of Kaffirs who will not work, but why should registration be required for indentured Indians...?" Again on September 9, 1905, Gandhi wrote about the local Africans as: "in the majority of cases it compels the native to work for at least a few days a year" (meaning that the locals are lazy).

Nothing could be farther from the truth that Gandhi fought against Apartheid, which many propagandists in later years wanted people to believe. He was all in favor of continuation of White domination and the oppression of Blacks in South Africa.

In the Indian Opinion of March 25, 1905, Gandhi wrote on a Bill regulating fire-arms: "In the instance of fire-arms, the Asiatic has been most improperly bracketed with the natives. The British Indian does not need any such restrictions as are imposed by the Bill on the natives regarding the carrying of fire-arms. The prominent race can remain so by preventing the native from arming himself. Is there the slightest vestige of justification for so preventing the British Indians?"

Gandhi always advised Indians not to align with other political groups in either colored or African communities. He was strongly opposed to the commingling of races. In the Indian Opinion of September 4, 1904, Gandhi wrote: "Under my suggestion, the Town Council (of Johannesburg) must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. It think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen."

In the Indian Opinion of September 24, 1903, Gandhi said: "We believe as much in the purity of races as we think they (the Whites) do...by advocating the purity of all races."

Again on December 24, 1903, in the Indian Opinion Gandhi stated that: "so far as British Indians are concerned, such a thing is particularly unknown. If there is one thing which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is purity of type."

When he was fighting on behalf of Indians, he was not fighting for all the Indians, but only for his rich merchant class upper caste Hindus!

In the Anglo-Boer War of 1899, Gandhi, in spite of his own belief that truth was on the side of the Boers, formed an ambulance unit in support of the British forces. He was very earnest about taking up arms and laying down his life for his beloved Queen. He led his men on to the battlefield and received a War Medal.

Gandhi joined in the orgy of Zulu slaughter when the Bambata Rebellion broke out. One needs to read the entire history of Bambata Rebellion to place Gandhi's nazi war crimes in its proper perspective. http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/gandhi.html


Velu Annamalai, Ph.D., a native of Tamil Nadu, India, is the President of the International Dalit Support Group and the author of Sergeant-Major M.K. Gandhi published by the Dalit Sahitya Akademy in Bangalore, India in 1995.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 21, 2010 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

e Durban Post Office
One of Gandhi's major "achievements" in South Africa was to promote racial segregation by refusing to share a post office door with the black natives.

Sergeant Major Gandhi
Learn how Gandhi became a Sgt. Major in the British Army and eagerly participated in the 1906 British war against the black Zulus.

Gandhi and South African Blacks
Gandhi wrote extensively about his experiences with the blacks of South Africa. He always termed them "Kaffirs" and his writings reveal a deep-seated disdain for these African natives.

Introduction

Gandhi is idolized by people of all political stripes around the world, and his life is popularly considered a model for the American Civil Rights Movement.

U.S. Senator Harry Reid called Gandhi “a giant in morality.” Former U.S president Ronald Reagan signed a bill creating a “National Day of Recognition for Mohandas K. Gandhi.” South African leader Nelson Mandela called Gandhi “the archetypal anticolonial revolutionary” whose “nonviolent resistance inspired anticolonial and antiracist movements.” African-American Senator Obama reportedly keeps a picture of Gandhi in his office.

Martin Luther King, Jr. associated Gandhi with the African-American struggle against inequality, segregation, and racism. Reverend King believed Gandhi was “inspired by the vision of humanity evolving toward...peace and harmony.” When the Indian government paid to place a statue of Gandhi at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial Center in Atlanta, Mrs. King spoke about her husband's admiration for Gandhi, saying, “It is gratifying and appropriate that this statue is installed in this historic site.”

Unfortunately, these people were never acquainted with the real, historical Mohandas Gandhi, who was a virulent racist.

Gandhi was hired to work as an attorney for wealthy Indian traders in South Africa. He moved there in 1893 and soon helped establish the Natal Indian Congress. The goal of this Congress was to “promote concord and harmony among the Indians and Europeans residing in the colony [of South Africa].” Instead of concord and harmony with the blacks, however, Gandhi promoted racial segregation. The major achievement of the Congress was the successful attempt, spear-headed by Gandhi, to fix the Durban post office “problem.” This issue is discussed in-depth here.

In 1904, Gandhi founded The Indian Opinion, a newspaper which he used as a political tool to promote his personal views. It is in this paper, which Gandhi edited until 1914, that we find a record of his extensive anti-black activism and opinions. A list of anti-black quotes from his writings, in which he invariably refers to the South African natives as “Kaffirs,” can be found here. Gandhi's opinion of the native is best summarized when he calls them people “whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

Finally, in 1906, Gandhi cheered on the British as they waged a war on the black Zulus. He then volunteered for military service himself, attaining the rank of Sgt. Major in the British Army and assisting the war on blacks in every way he could. You can learn more about this here.

One of the best-known heroes of the American Civil Rights Movement was Rosa Parks, the black lady who refused to sit at the back of the bus. While Gandhi is upheld as a champion of equality, the truth is that he probably would not even have allowed Mrs. Parks on the bus in the first place. He proudly said that among South African Indians, the “co-mingling of the coloured and white races...is practically unknown.” Gandhi also boasted, “If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes, more than any other, it is the purity of type.”

People remember Rev. King for his most famous speech, in which he said: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” To associate Martin Luther King, Jr. with Mohandas Gandhi, whose dream was to clear the way for Apartheid in South Africa, is an insult to the memory of Rev. King. http://www.gandhism.net/gandhiandblacks.php

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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Glaucus
Knowflake

Posts: 4288
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 21, 2010 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

Note: All quotes are direct quotations from “The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi,” here abbreviated as “CWMG.” All grammatical errors and misspellings are the responsibility of Mohandas Gandhi, the original author, and are preserved for historical consistency.

Before Dec. 19, 1894
“A general belief seems to prevail in the Colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than savages or the Natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.” ~ Vol. I, p. 193

Before May 5, 1895
“In the face, too, of financial operations, the success of which many of their detractors would envy, one fails to understand the agitation which would place the operators in the same category as the half-heathen Native and confine him to Locations, and subject him to the harsher laws by which the Transvaal Kaffir is governed.” ~ Vol. I, pp. 224-225

Before May 5, 1895
“When one reflects that the conception of Brahmanism, with its poetic and mysterious mythology, took its rise in the land of the ‘Coolie trader,’ that in that land 24 centuries ago, the almost divine Buddha taught and practised the glorious doctrine of self-sacrifice, and that it was from the plains and mountains of that weird old country that we have derived the fundamental truths of the very language we speak, one cannot but help regretting that the children of such a race should be treated as equals of the children of black heathendom and outer darkness. Those who, for a few moments, have stayed to converse with the Indian trader have been, perhaps, surprised to find they are speaking to a scholar and a gentleman…. And it is the sons of this Land of light who are despised as Coolies, and treated as Kaffirs.” ~ Vol. I, p. 225

Before May 5, 1895
“So far as the feeling has been expressed, it is to degrade the Indian to the position of the Kaffir.” ~ Vol. I, p. 229

Aug. 14, 1896
“The Attorney-General of Natal wants to keep the Indians for ever ‘hewers of wood and drawers of water.’ We are classed with the natives of South Africa - Kaffir race.” ~ Vol. I, p. 364

Sept. 26, 1896
“Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness.” ~ Vol. I, pp. 409-410

Sept. 26, 1896
“While, in other parts of South Africa, it is the railway officials who make the lot of the 1st and 2nd class passengers on the railway intolerable, the Transvaal people have gone one better in that there the law prohibits the Indians from travelling 1st or 2nd class. They are, irrespective of position, huddled together in the same compartment with the natives of South Africa.” ~ Vol. I, p. 415

Oct. 17, 1896
“A picnic party of European children used Indian and Kaffir boys as targets and shot bullets into their faces, hurting several inoffensive children. So deep-seated is the hatred that children have begun instinctively to look down upon Indians.” ~ Vol. I, p. 421

Oct. 26, 1896
“There is a bye-law in Durban which requires registration of coloured servants. This rule may be, and perhaps is, necessary for the Kaffirs who would not work, but absolutely useless with regard to the Indians. But the policy is to class the Indian with the Kaffir whenever possible.” ~ Vol. I, p. 435

Before May 27, 1899
“Your Petitioner has seen the Location intended to be used by the Indians. It would place them, who are undoubtedly infinitely superior to the Kaffirs, in close proximity to the latter.” ~ Vol. II, p. 270

Mar. 27, 1902
“All the anti-Indian laws in both the Colonies are in full force; under them, in the Transvaal, the Indians cannot own land or trade except in Locations, and must, like the Kaffirs, hold travelling and other passes.” ~ Vol. II, p. 453

Mar. 16, 1903
“The bye-law has its origin in the alleged or real, impudent and, in some cases, indecent behaviour of the Kaffirs. But, whatever the charges are against the British Indians, no one has ever whispered that the Indians behave otherwise than as decent men. But, as it is the wont in this part of the world, they have been dragged down with the Kaffir without the slightest justification.” ~ Vol. III, pp. 32-33

May 24, 1903
“The £3 tax is merely a penalty for wearing the brown skin and it would appear that, whereas Kaffirs are taxed because they do not work at all or sufficiently, we are to be taxed evidently because we work too much, the only thing in common between the two being the absence of the white skin.” ~ Vol. III, p. 74

Feb. 11, 1904
“I venture to write you regarding the shocking state of the Indian Location. The rooms appear to be overcrowded beyond description. The sanitary service is very irregular, and many of the residents of the Location have been to my office to complain that the sanitary condition is far worse than before. There is, too, a very large Kaffir population in the Location for which really there is no warrant.” ~ Vol. III, p. 427

Feb. 15, 1904
“I am extremely obliged to you for having paid a visit last Saturady to the Indian Location and for the interest you are taking in the proper sanitation of the site. The more I think of it, the uglier the situation appears to me, and I think that, if the Town Council takes up a position of non possumus, it will be an abdication of its function, and I do respectfully say that nothing can justify the Public Health Committee in saying that neither overcrowding nor insanitation could be helped. I feel convinced that every minute wasted over the matter merely hastens a calamity for Johannesburg and that through absolutely no fault of the British Indians. Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension.” ~ Vol. III, p. 428

Feb. 15, 1904
“Of course, under my suggestion, the Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly. I think it is very unfair to the Indian population and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen.” ~ Vol. III, p. 429

Apr. 30, 1904
“The Orange River Colony has entirely closed its gates against the Indians from the Transvaal. The Cape and Natal admit him under severe restrictions which have no scientific meaning. For instance, an Indian may be sharing the same compartment with a Kaffir. As soon, however, as the train bringing the passengers reaches the Natal border, the Indian is obliged to undergo 5 days’ quarantine before entering the Colony, whereas the Kaffir is permitted to do so without let or hindrance.” ~ Vol. III, p. 482

Jan. 10, 1904
“A correspondent from Warmbaths in the Transvaal writes to us in Gujarati, complaining that the authorities do not provide facilities for British Indians to make use of these famous healing waters. He says that, if any Indian wants to make use of them, he is merely directed to go to the rooms set apart for the Kaffirs. It appears that he offered to build a place for Indians, but the offer was not entertained. We are sure that, if there is any truth in the statement made by our correspondent, the Government will remedy the difficulty at once, and provide suitable facility for those Indians who may wish to make use of these waters.” ~ Vol. IV, p. 88

Mar. 12, 1904
“In South Africa, on the other hand, there are things which the white man would not do, and the Kaffir could not do. It has, therefore, been possible for the Indians to live in South Africa.” ~ Vol. IV, p. 129

Mar. 29, 1905
“Thus, the whites have begun to feel the need for Indian labour right from the beginning, for the Kaffirs are of no use and all the available Chinese are absorbed in the mines. Indian labour, is, therefore, in general demand.” ~ Vol. IV, p. 258

Oct. 6, 1905
“In all this computation, Lord Milner has overlooked one fact, viz., that, while the Kaffir hardly works for six months, the Chinese have to do so continuously for three years. Moreover, the Chinese being more active than the Kaffirs, much more work can be taken from them than from the latter. This is a very important point, but His Lordship utters not a word about it. Unless this is taken into account, Lord Milner’s figures are of no use whatever.” ~ Vol. IV, p. 312

Oct. 21, 1905
“We humbly submit that the decision to open the school for all Coloured children is unjust to the Indian community, and is a departure from the assurance given by the then Minister of Education, as also Sir Albert Hime and Mr. Robert Russell, that the school will be reserved for Indian children only.” ~ Vol. IV, p. 402

Dec. 30, 1905
“It has, we suppose, become a recognised thing in South Africa for such labour agents to be appointed for ‘inducing Kaffirs to work.’ Some call such a system a gentle coaxing; others call it a modified form of forced labour. We cannot question the policy that has been sanctioned for a long time, and its criticism does not lie within our domain. Unfortunately, the term ‘Coloured person’ is, in the Orange River Colony, interpreted invariably to mean ‘all coloured persons, who, in accordance with laws or customs, are called Coloured persons, or are treated as such, of whatsoever race or nationality they may be.’ It, therefore, includes Asiatics, Malays and others. Both the above-mentioned Ordinances on that account are open to very serious objections, and we cannot understand why the studied insult implied should be irritatingly kept up. Lord Selborne, in his reply to the British Indian Association, has admitted that there are very few Asiatics in the Orange River Colony. Why, then, should the offensive definition be maintained? If it is, in practice, inoperative, the only reason for its existence can be for the wanton pleasure of the inhabitants of the Orange River Colony, who wish to triumph over this implied degradation of the Asiatic races.” ~ Vol. V, p. 50

June 1, 1906
“The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs.” ~ Vol. V, p. 59

Mar. 17, 1906
“The ousting of the Kaffirs from the Bazaar at Pretoria is wrong; for, whatever the law, Indians have for many years now earned rentals from Kaffir tenants. It behoves the Government to ensured that Indians do not suffer any loss on this account.” ~ Vol. V, p. 129

Apr. 14, 1906
“It is not for us to say whether the revolt of the Kaffirs is justified or not. We are in Natal by virtue of British power. Our very existence depends upon it. It is therefore our duty to render whatever help we can. There was a discussion in the Press as to what part the Indian community would play in the event of an actual war. We have already declared in the English columns of this journal that the Indian community is ready to play its part;1 and we believe what we did during the Boer War should also be done now. That is, if the Government so desires, we should raise an ambulance corps. We should also agree to become permanent volunteers, if the Government is prepared to give us the requisite training.” ~ Vol. V, pp. 179-180

May 22, 1906
“It was a gross injustice to seek to place Indians in the same class as the Kaffirs.” ~ Vol. V, p. 226

May 26, 1906
“You say that the Magistrate’s decision is unsatisfactory, because it would enable a person, however unclean, to travel by a tram and that even the Kaffirs would be able to do so. But the Magistrate’s decision is quite different. The Court has declared that the Kaffirs have no legal right to travel by the trams. And, according to tram regulations, those in an unclean dress or in a drunken state are prohibited from boarding a tram. Thanks to the Court’s decision, only clean Indians or Coloured people other than Kaffirs can now travel by the trams.” ~ Vol. V, p. 235

June 30, 1906
“We have to learn much from what the whites are doing in Natal. There is hardly any family from which someone has not gone to fight the Kaffir rebels. Following their example, we should steel our hearts and take courage. Now is the time when the leading whites want us to take this step; if we let go this opportunity, we shall repent later. We therefore urge all Indian leaders to do their duty to the best of their ability.” ~ Vol. V, p. 273

Before July 19, 1906
“As we were struggling along, we met a Kaffir who did not wear the loyal badge. He was armed with an assegai and was hiding himself. However, we safely rejoined the troops on the further hill, whilst they were sweeping with their carbines the bushes below.” ~ Vol. V, p. 278

Before July 19, 1906
“Troopers had to lead their horses, and the route was so long that we never seemed to reach the bottom. However, at about 12 o’clock we finished the day’s journey, with no Kaffirs to fight.” ~ Vol. V, p. 280

Sept. 9, 1906
“Even the half-castes and Kaffirs, who are less advanced than we, have resisted the Government. The pass law applies to them as well, but they do not take out passes.” ~ Vol. V, p. 332

Nov. 16, 1906
“As you were good enough to show very great sympathy with the cause of British Indians in the Transvaal, may I suggest your using your influence with the Boer leaders in the Transvaal? I feel certain that they did not share the same prejudice against British Indians as against the Kaffir races but as the prejudice against Kaffir races in a strong form was in existence in the Transvaal at the time when the British Indians immigrated there, the latter were immediately lumped together with the Kaffir races and described under the generic term ‘Coloured people.’ Gradually the Boer mind was habituated to this qualification and it refused to recognize the evident and sharp distinctions that undoubtedly exist between British Indians and the Kaffir races in South Africa.” ~ Vol. VI, p. 95

Nov. 6, 1906
“Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs.” ~ Vol. VI, p. 112

Feb. 2, 1907
“It is certain that the Asiatic Ordinance will be re-introduced. When that happens, there should be only one thought in the mind of every Indian: never to accept such a law. And, if it is enforced, he will rather go to gaol than carry a pass like a Kaffir.” ~ Vol. VI, p. 257

Sept. 2, 1907
“From these views expressed by a White we have a lesson to learn: We must encourage the Whites too. It is a short-sighted policy to employ, through sheer niggardliness, a Kaffir for washing work. If we keep in view the conditions in this country and patronize the Whites, whenever proper and necessary, then every such White will serve as an advertisement for the Indian trader.” ~ Vol. VI, p. 276

June 4, 1907
“Are we supposed to be thieves or free-booters that even a Kaffir policeman can accost and detain us wherever we happen to be going?” ~ Vol. VI, p. 363

July 12, 1907
“If registration is made compulsory, there will be no difference between Indians and Kaffirs, and the neighbouring Colony will be tempted to adopt it as a precedent. It may also turn out to be a prelude to compulsory segregation in Coloured Locations.” ~ Vol. VII, p. 395

July 12, 1907
“There is again a rebellion of Kaffirs in Zululand. In view of this, hundreds of white troops have been dispatched. The Indian community must come forward at such a time without, however, thinking of securing any rights thereby. They must consider only the duty of the community. It is a common observation that when we attend to our duty, rights follow as a matter of course. It will be only proper for the Indian community to make the offer that was made last year. There is a move at present to levy a tax on those who do not enlist. The burden of this levy will fall on Indians alone; even though paying the tax, they will get no credit. We are, therefore, convinced in our minds that the Indian community should repeat its offer. We assume that there are many Indians now who will welcome such work enthusiastically. Those who went to the front last year can do so again. Most of them are seasoned people and familiar with the nature of the work. We very much hope that this work will be taken in hand without any delay.” ~ Vol. VII, p. 397

Dec. 12, 1907
“As to the plea that the Indian will not blend with the rest of the community, what is this but a re-statement of the old fable of the boy who stoned the toad as a punishment for its being a toad? The Indian of the Transvaal a branded a pariah by statute; he is treated as such in practice; regardless of the obvious terminological inexactitude, he is indiscriminately dubbed ‘coolie.’ One hears even in official circles such expressions as ‘coolie lawyer,’ ‘coolie doctor,’ ‘coolie merchant.’ His women are ‘coolie Marys.’ As has been already shown, he is accorded no place in the scheme of things, save on sufferance. He may not even own fixed property, although, curiously, he may be a mortgagee of such. He is even denied the not always obvious privilege of riding in the same municipal tramcars and Government railway carriages as his white fellow-colonists. His children are afforded no facilities for education except they attend the schools set apart for Kaffirs. Could there be less encouragement for the Indian ‘to blend’ and to associate himself more closely with the larger life of the community?” ~ Vol. VII, p. 445-446

Dec. 12, 1907
“Compulsory registration is recognised as signifying nothing less than the reduction of British Indians to the status of the Kaffir; as being more than likely of adoption as a precedent for anti-Indian legislation by the neighbouring colonies; and as a probable prelude to compulsory segregation in coloured locations.” ~ Vol. VII, p. 447

Feb. 2, 1908
“The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets.” ~ Vol. VIII, p. 167

July 3, 1908
“We were then Marched off to a prison intended for Kaffirs. There, our garments were stamped with the letter ‘N,’ which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had not launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.” ~ Vol. VIII, p. 198

July 3, 1907
“Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilised - the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company!” ~ Vol. VIII, p. 199

Mar. 21, 1908
“It is thus clear that both Kaffirs and Europeans get food suited to their tastes. The poor Indians - nobody bothers about them! They cannot get the food they want. If they are given European diet, the whites will feel insulted. In any case, why should the gaol authorities bother to find out the normal Indian fare? There is nothing for it but to let ourselves be classed with the Kaffirs and starve.” ~ Vol. VIII, pp. 218-19

Jan. 16, 1909
“As soon as we rose the following day, I was taken to where the other prisoners were lodged, so that I had no chance to complain to the Governor about what had happened. I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 257

Jan. 16, 1909
“I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room with them have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 257

Jan. 23, 1909
“Some of the prisoners are found to suffer from diseases like syphilis, and therefore everyone of them has his genitals examined. For this purpose, the prisoners are totally undressed, while being examined. Unlike the others, Kaffirs are kept standing undressed for nearly 15 minutes so as to save the physician’s time. Indian prisoners are made to lower their breeches only when the physician approaches them. The other garments have to be removed in advance. Almost every Indian resents having to lower his breeches, but most of them do not create any difficulty in the interest of our movement, though at heart they feel ill at ease. I told the physician about this.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 272

Jan. 23, 1909
“Prisons are generally kept very clean. If this were not so, there would be epidemics before long. But there is also lack of cleanliness in some respects. Blankets are constantly interchanged. A blanket that has been used by the dirtiest of Kaffirs may later fall to an Indian’s lot.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 274

Jan. 30, 1909
“First, why should we bear such hardships, submit ourselves, for instance, to the restrictions of gaol life, wear coarse and ungainly dress, eat food which is hardly food, starve ourselves, suffer being kicked by the warder, live among the Kaffirs, do every kind of work, whether we like it or not, obey a warder who is only good enough to be our servant, be unable to receive any friends or write letters, go without things that we may need, and sleep in company with robbers and thieves? Better die than suffer this. Better pay the fine than go to gaol.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 292

July 16, 1909
“The labour required of them is generally of a severe character. Indians who have never lifted a heavy weight or done any spadde work have been put to wheeling heavily loaded barrows, digging holes repairing roads, etc., side by side with Kaffir convicts of the worst type.” ~ Vol. IX, p. 422

Oct. 8, 1909
“We do not get there the food that we are used to, and are classified with the Kaffirs.” ~ Vol. X, p. 158

Dec. 2, 1910
“Some Indians do have contacts with Kaffir women. I think such contacts are fraught with grave danger. Indians would do well to avoid them altogether.” ~ Vol. X, p. 414

Mar. 10, 1911
“I do not think that there need be any worry about police officer. If the Regulations provide for Kaffir Police, we can fight the Regulations. Even in attacking the details of the Bill, I think we should be very careful not to trouble ourselves with what may be remedied by Regulation.” ~ Vol. XI, p. 266
http://www.gandhism.net/southafricanblacks.php

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Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
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Glaucus
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posted August 21, 2010 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Why do India's Dalits hate Gandhi?
By Thomas C. Mountain
Online Journal Contributing Writer


Mar 17, 2006, 12:49

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In India, supposedly the world's largest democracy, the leadership of the rapidly growing Dalit movement have nothing good to say about Mohandas K. Gandhi. To be honest, Gandhi is actually one of the most hated Indian leaders in the hierarchy of those considered enemies of India's Dalits or "untouchables" by the leadership of India's Dalits.

Many have questioned how could I dare say such a thing? In reply I urge people outside of India to try and keep in mind my role as the messenger in this matter. I am the publisher of the Ambedkar Journal, founded in 1996, which was the first publication on the Internet to address the Dalit question from the Dalits' viewpoint. My co-editor is M. Gopinath, who includes in his c.v. being managing editor of the Dalit Voice newspaper and then going on to found Times of Bahujan, national newspaper of the Bahujan Samaj Party, India's Dalit party and India's youngest and third largest national. The founding president of the Ambedkar Journal was Dr. Velu Annamalai, the first Dalit in history to achieve a Ph.d in Engineering. My work with the Dalit movement in India started in 1991 and I have been serving as one of the messengers to those outside of India from the Dalit leaders who are in the very rapid process of organizing India's Dalits into a national movement. The Dalit leadership I work with received many tens of millions of votes in the last national election in India.

With that out of the way, lets get back to the 850 million-person question, why do Dalits hate M.K. Gandhi?

To start, Gandhi was a so-called "high caste". High castes represent at small minority in India, some 10-15 percent of the population, yet dominate Indian society in much the same way whites ruled South Africa during the official period of Apartheid. Dalits often use the phrase Apartheid in India when speaking about their problems.

The Indian Constitution was authored by Gandhi's main critic and political opponent, Dr. Ambedkar, for whom our journal is named and the first Dalit in history to receive an education (if you have never heard of Dr. Ambedkar I would urge you to try and keep an open mind about what I am saying for it is a bit like me talking to you about the founding of the USA when you have never heard of Thomas Jefferson).

Most readers are familiar with Gandhi's great hunger strike against the so called Poona Pact in 1933. The matter which Gandhi was protesting, nearly unto death at that, was the inclusion in the draft Indian Constitution, proposed by the British, that reserved the right of Dalits to elect their own leaders. Dr. Ambedkar, with his degree in law from Cambridge, had been chosen by the British to write the new constitution for India. Having spent his life overcoming caste-based discrimination, Dr. Ambedkar had come to the conclusion that the only way Dalits could improve their lives is if they had the exclusive right to vote for their leaders, that a portion or reserved section of all elected positions were only for Dalits and only Dalits could vote for these reserved positions.

Gandhi was determined to prevent this and went on hunger strike to change this article in the draft constitution. After many communal riots, where tens of thousands of Dalits were slaughtered, and with a leap in such violence predicted if Gandhi died, Dr. Ambedkar agreed, with Gandhi on his death bed, to give up the Dalits right to exclusively elect their own leaders and Gandhi ended his hunger strike.

Later, on his own death bed, Dr. Ambedkar would say this was the biggest mistake in his life, that if he had to do it all over again, he would refuse to give up Dalit only representation, even if it meant Gandhi's death.

As history has shown, life for the overwhelming majority of Dalits in India has changed little since the arrival of Indian independence over 50 years ago. The laws written into the Indian Constitution by Dr. Ambedkar, many patterned after the laws introduced into the former Confederate or slave states in the USA during reconstruction after the Civil War to protect the freed black Americans, have never been enforced by the high caste dominated Indian court system and legislatures. A tiny fraction of the "quotas" or reservations for Dalits in education and government jobs have been filled. Dalits are still discriminated against in all aspect of life in India's 650,000 villages, despite laws specifically outlawing such acts. Dalits are the victims of economic embargos, denial of basic human rights such as access to drinking water, use of public facilities and education and even entry to Hindu temples.

To this day, most Indians still believe, and this includes a majority of Dalits, that Dalits are being punished by God for sins in a previous life. Under the religious codes of Hinduism, a Dalit's only hope is to be a good servant of the high castes and upon death and rebirth they will be reincarnated in a high caste. This is called varna in Sanskrit, the language of the original Aryans who imposed Hinduism on India beginning some 3,500 years ago. Interestingly, the word "varna" translates literally into the word "color" from Sanskrit.

This is one of the golden rules of Dalit liberation, that varna means color, and that Hinduism is a form of racially based oppression and as such is the equivalent of Apartheid in India. Dalits feel that if they had the right to elect their own leaders they would have been able to start challenging the domination of the high castes in Indian society and would have begun the long walk to freedom so to speak. They blame Gandhi and his hunger strike for preventing this.

So there it is, in as few words as possible, why in today's India the leaders of India's Dalits hate M.K. Gandhi.

This is, of course, an oversimplification. India's social problems remain the most pressing in the world and a few paragraphs are not going to really explain matters to anyone's satisfaction. The word Dalit and the movement of a crushed and broken people, the "untouchables" of India, are just beginning to become known to most of the people concerned about human rights in the world. As Dalits organize themselves and begin to challenge caste-based rule in India, it behooves all people of good conscience to start to find out what the Dalits and their leadership are fighting for. A good place to start is with M.K. Gandhi and why he is so hated by Dalits in India.
Thomas C. Mountain is the publisher of the Ambedkar Journal on India's Dalits, founded in 1996. His writing has been featured in Dalit publications across India, including the Dalit Voice and the Times of Bahujan as well as on the front pages of the mainstream, high caste owned, Indian press. He would recommend viewing of the film "Bandit Queen" as the best example of life for women and Dalits in India's villages, which is the story of the life of the late, brutally murdered, Phoolan Devi, of whose international defense committee Thomas C. Mountain was a founding member. He can be reached at tmountain@hawaii.rr.com.
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_603.shtml

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Glaucus
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posted August 21, 2010 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

more stuff on Gandhi http://rupeenews.com/2009/06/15/why-mayawati-considers-mohandas-gandhi-a-natakbaaz-and-why-dalits-hate-gandhi/

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=131944976821905&ref=ts

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