posted March 07, 2013 05:12 AM            

^The first few posts on this thread sum up how I feel on this. I am wondering if there are people here who may have researched this in depth and may like to share any ideas they may have come accross?

It seems to me that it isn't possible to live in this particular world without taking life from other life-forms in some way (even plants) if you are to stay strong/ healthy (while you can). The only life-forms which seem to be completely humane are flowers, trees, plants etc- they take food only by photosynthesis and most species are completely peaceful and do not harm any others- they give. However, we are not like them- they remain still and are not able to defend themselves if attacked. There is no scientific proof either that people who claim to live off sunlight are telling the truth- we have only their word on it and they are likely to be making it up or distorting the truth- it is an interesting idea though.

What I really would like to know, is if there could be a REASON that the world's ecosystem is designed the way that it is- the cycle of life feeding on life.

Secondly I long to know if there could be other worlds where intelligent life can exist perfectly well without this design- a realm where ENERGY is readily available or does not run out.

posted March 07, 2013 05:43 AM              

It has dawned upon me many times the horrifying reality of the food chain. All I desire is to understand it beyond our current knowledge.

You ask excellent questions, as always.

posted March 07, 2013 06:02 AM            

I've just ordered a second hand copy of the book for myself from ebay.

posted March 07, 2013 06:10 AM            

I also like to imagine that perhaps at one time there were cultures on earth who were aware of some of the hidden mysteries and who possesed a higher knowledge....like the Elves of Rivendell. Perhaps these could have been the Celts; maybe they could have possessed faerie or alien DNA or something like this....I like to fantasize that I could be descended from them and that's why I don't feel I fit in/ am always searching for something more HA HA (And am also trying to learn to play the harp as I find it's sound very captivating and purchased a well priced hardly damaged Celtic harp on ebay recently!).

posted March 07, 2013 09:49 AM            

Too tired to elaborate more at the moment.

posted March 07, 2013 02:49 PM            

What I'm not sure is if it's "intended" or "random/just is" or "a little of A and little of B." It's interesting how like when a new plant evolves then in short order a new animal organism comes into being almost right after that feeds off of it somehow (and I'm not even including those organisms that just "expand their diet"), and of course others feed on that new organism (possible yet another new organism). Heck, microbes that eat synthetic junk made by us humans have evolved, and I vaguely recall hearing a few years ago of a new type of ant that went after electronics.

But some believe the world is a harsh place because that's what pushes us to grow. Without it we'd remain soft & content forever, challenging ourselves physically at most if even that. But necessity makes us grow and adapt, though unfortunately with a lot of growing pains, but that's constantly ripping away the old and creating the new, too. Of course sometimes we may "learn the wrong lessons" (like "might makes right") but if the "answers" of whatever we're supposed to learn were just handed to us then maybe we'd just be passively accepting what someone dictated to us on some other plane of existence, which might seems sterile or counterproductive, and perhaps even prevent the cosmos from knowing itself (don't feel like explaining that concept more at the moment).

Though one interesting occult theory I heard is that life was created to feed spiritual entities, and that they're not benevolent after all. As above, so below, and created with the intent to feed on our psychic energy the "life feeds on life" was woven in as it reflected the desires and/or needs when our cosmos came into being (or entities within that cosmos). Another interesting theory to me is that by creating slavery, even down to ranching, we attracted such entities toward us who treated us the same ("as below, then so above"?) and I vaguely recall one guy's theory that reality itself then shifted retroactively to match the new harvesters.

A fictional concept I've encountered more than once is that entities stopped some unknowable cosmic chaos that wouldn't allow anything to exist by sacrificing many of their own and part of creating us was to fuel them with more to stave off that cosmic horror that make even the gods tremble in fear. And another concept I came across is that entropy is actually that former unknowable existence "antibodies" trying to do away with the disease that is existence, that is we're (and all that we know) is the cancer against the reality that doesn't want to be named or known. (Fans of Lovecraft can happily gibber in ecstatic praise of Cthulhu now.)

posted March 07, 2013 04:50 PM              

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Originally posted by listenstotrees:
Howdy Sunchild

I've just ordered a second hand copy of the book for myself from ebay.

I was trying to find your email address actually as I wanted to ask you whether Rudolph Steiner may have discussed this topic in any depth. I tried clicking on your name in the forums you moderate but your email address wouldn't pop up. Has Rudolph Steiner discussed this topic much in any of his books?

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You have been missed.

I will have to check my email with Randall, unless I have not submitted an email? Weird. I forgot how that works, any way, it is sunchild under score, 214 at hotmail dot com.

Steiner has discussed this- I was going to talk about it from an Occult Science perspective, but then I realised I knew very little on the subject and I only remember a few factoids. I will locate the several lectures for you as I would like to read them again also.
I read these a few years back and only retained a small portion of knowledge from it.

There was a little factoid about how humans through their desire to be free from flesh, can eventually harness the astral forces without having to digest meat for those necessary forces.

Which is where I am at now, and many other vegetarians of course. Some are not however, and that is manifest in either a dietary related illness or a dissatisfaction with their diet. Because they actually still need it. The process can take quite a long time for some, as it did with me.

Eventually with practising diet as an art, this is inevitably achieved if desired, most of the time. You know when you begin harnessing the astral forces and flesh is a big turn off in the true sense, this is in contrast to how a vegetarian normally mind tricks them self into repulsion. One is superficial, one is from the soul. Goodman also discusses this in her way. A lot of young children can not harness the astral forces after 7 and thus, need to feed on them in a very crude way. Which I wont argue with, they'll shift when they are ready, because if they are not, then illness can arise.

This is just something I wanted to mention, but for the occult knowledge covering this, quite a few lectures go into detail, I will email them to you. It doesn't solve a lot of how we feel toward suffering empathically, though it does shine a light on the hidden details that move us in the direction of enlightenment.

posted March 07, 2013 07:10 PM            

There is alot that can be said about the concept to be sure.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

The law of conservation of energy, first formulated in the nineteenth century, is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time. The total energy is said to be conserved over time. For an isolated system, this law means that energy can change its location within the system, and that it can change form within the system, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy, but that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

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The basic premise is that there was never anything for the system/universe to lose nor gain from the very beginning, yet how is that possible?

I found the first view posts from the Yahoo thread pretty interesting, as I do the ones here also.

The basic problem I see is that how and why does evil exist, and why does it seem almost a necessity for existence?

Ofc such is relative to whether or not you see the concept of life feeding on life as evil or not?

So we can blame the Demiurge or worship Cthulhu, but as Doug Stone says to Philip K Dick in Valis... You are the authority here! If we could collectively deal with that "horror", then we could probably change the rules anytime we wanted.

It is my opinion that technology will soon exist that allows for the creation of food that drastically minimizes humanities impact on the environment and the need to feed on sentient life.

(Ofc how do we define parameters for sentient life)

Animals will still feed on one another, but we can make a choice to change the system anytime we want.

Food replicators are not science-fiction, we are already replicating and printing guns and organs from 3d printers... Its only a matter of time before we have the computing power to arrange proteins and print an Apple (No, not a Mac).

posted March 07, 2013 10:48 PM            

I heard that they have successfully cloned bacon? Not for me but I would promote this over animal cruelty & suffering any day!

I'm not a veggie (I eat fish and a little meat now and then) but at the same time I don't feel good about being part of the ecosystem, I simply see it as necessary while I am here. I'm not too sure whether eating plants is more humane (referring to the work of Cleve Baxter). Fruitarianism isn't healthy and all seeds, beans, nuts etc contain enzyme inhibitors.....even if these are cooked or sprouted, it is still very difficult to get everything we need/ convert it into what we need. Omega 3 in fish (DHA?) is available in a form that we can readily use; most humans are not able to convert it from other sources as efficiently and we need to use more of it. Of course, I do not like the way the fish have been killed that I eat, but the way I see it I do not have the choice where I live to go out and hunt my own food and ensure it is done as humanely as possible with a little prayer after. (I eat salmon for protein as it is apparently the safest to eat in regards to toxins and omega 3 benefits concentration, ADD type problems/ issues and inflammatory ailments).

I have been thinking about the show "True Blood quite a bit since posting this thread. I enjoy watching it. In the last season, the vampyre goddess Lilith" had been evoked and manifested. It seems to make more sense to me that if there were any powerful supernatural type entity behind this world, that it may be a vampyre or vampyric.

Vampyre literature use to fascinate me in my teens and inspired me to be a goth for a little while. However, I was more intrigued by the vampyre Louis in Anne Rice than the others....the vampyre with a conscience, at odds with everything!

posted March 07, 2013 11:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
The law of conservation of energy, first formulated in the nineteenth century, is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time. The total energy is said to be conserved over time. For an isolated system, this law means that energy can change its location within the system, and that it can change form within the system, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy, but that energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

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Who knows what other dimensions/ worlds there may be out there where the life can exist without tormenting other life in order to obtain food, where animals who aren't hunters but are "prey" for other animals don't live in constant FEAR.

I am not referring to anyone in this thread, but people in general.....often when I've raised this subject before they like to go on about how it is all a part of the circle of life and the recycling of nutrients etc. Some people I work with even believe I'm the crazy one for believing animals have feelings too. However, the reason I am not buying any of this is because I feel I do have a deep understanding in my heart, a knowing, that all life is interconnected and all creatures do feel pain and varying levels/ types of emotions too. I question everything else in life apart from this one thing, because I feel it to be true in the core of my very being.

With this acknowledgement, that all creatures feel there just isn't any way I am able to sit back and contentedly say that the ecosystem is fine the way it is, that it is all just the circle of life and I am just looking upon it with a distorted perspective etc. Any more than I can sit back and tell myself its ok that horrible things happen to innocent children in our world, that people are starving, homeless and dying of curable diseases, or that people contract awful terminal illnesses that make them suffer, or diseases like alzheimers that take away their memory, power and control, or that some people are born with disabilities that cause them pain and suffering and mean they will never have the chance to be independant or have control. I simply can't sit back contentedly and convince myself that all this can be explained aaway by karma, because I don't believe it to be true.

I am open to the possibility that these things may have a purpose; some type of evolutionary lesson for the soul or something. However I don't make any assumptions.

I am like Mulder in a way....I want to believe.....

I WANT to believe there is a purpose, I really do. I want to believe there is order....because the idea that it is all simply random is frightening because it means we are all vulnerable.

Like I said though, the only thing I believe without "evidence", because I feel it so strong, is that we are all interconnected.

posted March 08, 2013 10:47 PM            

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Whenever my denizens [unknowingly and not knowing] brush up against me, tiny white welts rise on their skin. Before my eyes, these blisters swell into thumb-shaped pods. They begin to grow more slowly, then sprout dozens of hooked spines. As the crowd mills about, the barbs catch hold of anything they touch, and the husks pass to fresh carriers. They continue to enlarge and soon latch onto someone new, then someone else after that, and it is not long before a sea of bulging pods is spreading steadily outward around me.

My denizens continue to bustle about their business. They cannot see the pods, nor feel the extra weight, nor even smell the fetid reek that clings to their bodies. Only I perceive the husks, slowly swelling and turning emerald and gold and ruby and jet; only I see them oozing yellow ichor and starting to throb like hearts.

Thus are the four Pains spread through the multiverse--agony, anguish, misery, and despair--to ripen and burst and bring low the mighty and the meek alike. From whence they come, I do not remember. It may be that I create them myself, or that they rise from some hidden place deeper and blacker than the bottom layer of the Abyss, where the smoke hangs thick as rock and death is the sweetest memory. I can only say there is a void in my chest where I once had a heart, and from this emptiness springs all the suffering in the multiverse.

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The Lady says they're a gift. She explains later on when one of the most annoying main characters ever (IMO) prays to her, having heard that those who pray to the Lady are torn to shreds by blades that appear and rip a body to pieces (if she's in a merciful mood, otherwise she can downright nasty) in this way (in case you're wondering why, well that's a long story, but suffice to say he doesn't think the Lady can hurt HIM, though he soon learns his folly):

quote:

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The prayer is, I think, the most beautiful ever uttered in Sigil. How it speaks to me! Of reckless yearnings pursued unto misery, of secret lusts that are themselves unbearable torments. Pleasure and pain, they are one; hope nurtures the despair, love breeds loss, joy begets sorrow--this Thrasson, he knows me for the thing I am. His fine words I would forgive, if I could.

But this is Sigil. Here, no god may enter--and if the Thrasson prays to me, what do I become but a god?

It must not be. The doors would open: the city itself would crumble, and there I would stand, one alone against all the gods of the multiverse. With chains of starlight and axes of fire, they would come for me, the bad and the good, and make a war to sunder the planes themselves.

What then? With Pain caged in the deepest Abyss and bound to the will of Demogorgon or Diinkarazan or some other god of wickedness, what then? I will tell you: tyranny and cowardice, darkness in every plane, and fear in every breath; a single foul ruler himself ruled by hungers, foul beyond imagining, all the multiverse his to pillage and to ravish as he desires.

And worse still, if good prevails: endless worlds of endless ease, with no suffering to build strength, no anguish to breed courage, no fear to foster cunning; a multiverse of middling passions and bland hungers, where nothing is ventured because nothing can be lost, where no anger is consuming, no love passionate, and no life worth living.

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posted March 09, 2013 03:57 PM            

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And yes, by virtue of plant life;
animals do eat in a fashion; "sunlight";
hence even we of the animal kingdom are composed of sunlight.

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PixieJane,

quote:

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"And worse still, if good prevails: endless worlds of endless ease, with no suffering to build strength, no anguish to breed courage, no fear to foster cunning; a multiverse of middling passions and bland hungers, where nothing is ventured because nothing can be lost, where no anger is consuming, no love passionate, and no life worth living".

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Maybe we just have to put up with the Joffrey Lannisters of the world while they are a part of the story, until it is time for a new chapter?

The Hindus, I believe, say that they do not have multiple gods/goddesses but only one, at the core of their teachings- but that all the gods and goddesses are the many faces of their one god.

I don't know if I believe in "god" or not, but either way I look at it....to think....a universe.....capable of manifesting such profound love.....and yet.....such profound evil?

Good....(my definition of good is "love").
Love? What [/is] love?
To me love means feeling connected to another; wanting to take care of them, to help them, protect them, give them happiness etc. We all want to feel happiness. We all want to feel comfort.

Evil (my definition of evil is hate/ cruelty).
The desire to harm another because they are seen as separate and so the person inflicting the pain/ cruelty on the other thinks it is acceptable. They may have various motivations but the end result is that it makes them feel more powerful. The most extreme psycopaths are capable of such acts because they have no empathy for others- therefore they do not feel connected to others- they feel separate. Empathy= connectedness= love.

posted March 09, 2013 04:04 PM            

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Originally posted by listenstotrees:
Lexigrammer, for some bizarre reason, maybe tiredness I did not see your reply earlier! It's so good to see you, you have been in my thoughts as I had not seen you around in a long time on FB, I hope you are doing ok.

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posted March 09, 2013 04:09 PM            

Edited to add:
I sent you an email to both email addresses I have for you as I can't remember if you have my current email address or not.

posted March 10, 2013 03:45 PM            

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Originally posted by listenstotrees:
PixieJane,

I feel if you were to write an autobiography it would be a good one.

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posted March 10, 2013 04:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by listenstotrees:
Lexigrammer, yes I would like to know how you have been/ are doing. I am so sorry you are not doing well. It isn't fair. I wish there was something I could do to help.

Edited to add:
I sent you an email to both email addresses I have for you as I can't remember if you have my current email address or not.

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