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the7thsphere
Knowflake

Posts: 198
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Registered: Jul 2015

posted July 23, 2015 06:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you ever noticed that, in modern society, there's a serious imbalance between positivity and negativity? It's overwhelmingly negative. And the individual is expected to opt-in to that negativity, else face serious social consequences.

Notice: if a person makes a negative statement about himself, that's called "modesty", and he's respected and praised for it.

But! If a person has the temerity to say something positive about himself, that's instantly deemed as "arrogance" and "conceit", and he's villified and beat to a pulp for it.

I think that imbalance is really ugly, really unhealthy, and really unrealistic. We all have positive and negative qualities. Why are we only "allowed" to talk about half of our selves?

Has anyone else observed this?

Does anyone else see how this encourages/enforces inaccurately low self-esteem?

Does this worry anyone else as much as it does me?

------------------
Society is not reality.

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Astro keen
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From: UK
Registered: Nov 2012

posted July 23, 2015 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Astro keen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is more the case in Western cultures where self-deprecation is a virtue. Particularly in the UK, which excels at the fine art of understatement. I think Americans are more able to 'boast'.

Speaking about ones virtues or accomplishments, I think rightly, is considered childish and ironically displays a lack of confidence. This is very noticeable to me - my bf, for example, never name drops, even if he is being consulted by the Pope himself, whilst I would readily do so.

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

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posted July 23, 2015 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, Astro Keen, I'm speaking from an American perspective, so maybe there's not so much difference between the US and UK as you imagine, in that respect.

It just seems to me that if one makes his goal perfect accuracy in his speech -- that is, to tell the truth -- he would have to disregard ego considerations, whether for or against, and simply state the facts when the facts are needed.

You say that speaking positively of oneself is childish. Let me pose an example. Suppose I'm in need of money (for rent or food, we'll say) and someone posts "I need a good portrait artist, and I'm willing to pay. Who here is really good at drawing portraits?" Should I refrain from responding to this because to do so would be childish? I certainly don't want to be childish!

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Vajra
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Posts: 1155
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012

posted July 23, 2015 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the7thsphere:

You say that speaking positively of oneself is childish. Let me pose an example. Suppose I'm in need of money (for rent or food, we'll say) and someone posts "I need a good portrait artist, and I'm willing to pay. Who here is really good at drawing portraits?" Should I refrain from responding to this because to do so would be childish? I certainly don't want to be childish!

^I think the problem is not so much saying something positive about oneself, but rather, how one phrases it and whether one makes others look bad by saying it. One can make a factual statement that others cannot help but agree with, or one can boast and make others feel bad by putting them down at the same time. In your example, if someone asks for a portrait artist, I wouldn't find it strange if someone responds with a phrase such as "I can do this, I've been doing portraits for 10 years, if you're interested I can send you some pics." That's not boasting, at least not in my book, it's informative. By contrast, saying something like "I'm the greatest portrait artist you'll ever find," or: "Nobody knows how to draw a portrait any more these days" or something similar will likely cause consternation because it puts others down, even if unintentionally, by making an exaggerated claim and drawing a comparison between oneself and others.

Having said that, somehow it's nicer if other people say these things about a person, because self-perception is always a little off. When giving professional feedback to people on their job performance, I tend to notice a curious pattern: often, those who really did an extraordinary job are much too self-critical, and they sometimes hardly believe the positive things one tells them, and even ask for more critical feedback so they can improve some more; while those who did perfectly average often expect to be praised for actually completing the job, and can be mighty offended if their effort wasn't seen as special, just average. They will typically pout and say things like "But I put in so much effort!" and not see it's the result that counts, not the number of hours one put into it. I really wonder where this comes from.

Given this curious bias in self-perception to either over- or underrate one's performance that seems to be ubiquitous, maybe it's better to leave the praising to others, as it seems more convincing that way.

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PixieJane
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posted July 23, 2015 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've noticed this is much more true for women than men...though of course loud mouth braggarts (especially when they can't live up to their bold claims) are disdained, but not bragging in general, from pay to the new car, to how many women and "how big it is." (Emphasis edited in since 7S overlooked it going by his response that exists at the time of my editing this.)

Women, OTOH, aren't supposed to do that. Back in school many girls had worked out an intricate system: they'd put themselves down fishing for compliments, and they'd get them in exchange for complimenting her friends putting themselves down as well, so they could all feel better about themselves without feeling vain, but a girl who bragged on her own appearance was typically seen as vain and worse. And I've noticed that not all females outgrow that, they pretty much keep doing that for decades, though even then it usually expands beyond physical appearance.

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

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posted July 23, 2015 11:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm really disappointed that in every response so far, what I simply stated as "say[ing] something positive about himself" was instantly and assumptively translated to "boasting" or "bragging". I didn't introduce the concept of going overboard with the positivity at all. I didn't introduce the concept of the positive statements' purpose being to feed the ego. What I did make mention of -- the entire point of my post, in fact -- was that even a healthy and realistic statement of positivity, made not to feed the ego but simply to communicate an idea factually, is instantly perceived as, and assumed to be boasting and bragging.

And every response so far has exhibited that very assumption!

Thanks for proving the point I made. Now can we discuss why it happens?

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PixieJane
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posted July 23, 2015 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, because it doesn't typically happen. At least not for men.

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

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posted July 24, 2015 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, thanks for the blanket generalization, PJ. If you were a man and had made the same statement regarding women, we'd be five pages deep in flame war by now.

The key is healthy self-esteem, that doesn't rise or fall depending on others' opinion. Healthy also means realistic. Realistic implies not over- OR under-grown. Not having any need for your ego to be stroked, you can focus on what's important: the truth, and the facts of whatever matter is at hand. But if the truth of the matter just so happens to involve one of your positive qualities, or an above-average ability you possess, you will generally be slammed for being arrogant even though that isn't what you're doing at all. That's the point I'm making. Saying, "Geez, I'm such an idiot..." when you can't find your car keys is acceptable; saying "I'm a genius" is never (even if you just took a spate of tests that prove it) -- in society. [Just as one example, one that came to mind readily as blatant and clear.] It's imbalance, and therefore deviation from the truth. Therefore mentally unhealthy. We would be healthier as a whole if there wasn't this WAY OVERBLOWN, KNEE-JERK REACTION attached to making positive statements about oneself. The people having this reaction -- and (I get so sick of using this number, but unfortunately I have no choice, if I'm describing reality as it is) 99% of the people I've ever met have this reaction. Consistently. They never stop and ask themselves, "Well, is he just being factual?" Nope. They have to play the comparison game constantly, and if they don't come out on top in that comparison, their starving self-esteem causes them to throw a temper tantrum. "YOU EGOTISTICAL P.O.S.! YOU'RE JUST A KNOW-IT-ALL! YOU JUST THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE! YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING!" Facts and truth get lost amidst people's desperation to be the smartest person in the room. Or the prettiest. Or the funniest. Or the richest. Or the wisest.

A person who knows EXACTLY who and what he is, both the positive and negative, in intimate detail, and isn't afraid to talk about both equally, who just wants to discuss it without all the childish ego-games, is S.O.L.. Even when he makes it a point to find a group of people who are supposedly interested in doing exactly that. You know, like... the so-called "spiritual-growth" crowd?

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

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posted July 24, 2015 12:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I actually am constantly seeking out people who are better at things than I am. Who the **** else am I gonna learn new things from? And how am I gonna find them if they're "hiding their light under a bushel", scared to show themselves because they know they'll get lynched? Eh? Eh?

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

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posted July 24, 2015 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trying to ever talk about this is like:
Very frustrating!

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Vajra
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Posts: 1155
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012

posted July 24, 2015 02:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the7thsphere:
I actually am constantly seeking out people who are better at things than I am. Who the **** else am I gonna learn new things from? And how am I gonna find them if they're "hiding their light under a bushel", scared to show themselves because they know they'll get lynched? Eh? Eh?

I usually find such people by looking at what they do, not what they say. Like Emerson said: "Your actions speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you are saying."

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UnderworldGlory
Knowflake

Posts: 58
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2015

posted July 24, 2015 03:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for UnderworldGlory     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the7thsphere:
Have you ever noticed that, in modern society, there's a serious imbalance between positivity and negativity? It's overwhelmingly negative. And the individual is expected to opt-in to that negativity, else face serious social consequences.

Notice: if a person makes a negative statement about himself, that's called "modesty", and he's respected and praised for it.

But! If a person has the temerity to say something positive about himself, that's instantly deemed as "arrogance" and "conceit", and he's villified and beat to a pulp for it.

I think that imbalance is really ugly, really unhealthy, and really unrealistic. We all have positive and negative qualities. Why are we only "allowed" to talk about half of our selves?

Has anyone else observed this?

Does anyone else see how this encourages/enforces inaccurately low self-esteem?

Does this worry anyone else as much as it does me?


Positive and negatives are simply abnormalities of perception. I believe they become conditioned overtime if one does not seek help.

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the7thsphere
Knowflake

Posts: 198
From:
Registered: Jul 2015

posted July 24, 2015 03:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the7thsphere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I usually find such people by looking at what they do, not what they say. Like Emerson said: "Your actions speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you are saying."

It's an Internet discussion forum. All we can literally do here is say things.

Would you like to try that response again?

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Vajra
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Posts: 1155
From: Europe
Registered: Dec 2012

posted July 24, 2015 04:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Vajra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the7thsphere:
It's an Internet discussion forum. All we can literally do here is say things.

Would you like to try that response again?


Nope. Would you maybe like to try blogging instead of posting? It's better for people who don't actually have an interest in other people's thoughts. You also get to delete every comment you don't like, wouldn't that be something? BTW, it's bad manners to try and prescribe to other people on a forum what they should think or how they should post. If you're frustrated with the reactions you get, it might be a good starting point to reflect on that.

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Bluejay
Knowflake

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posted July 24, 2015 06:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bluejay     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@the7thsphere,

Why would you start a thread asking for input, experiences and opinions from others, only to dismiss what they have to say? What are you really trying to accomplish? To have a discussion, or to invite opinions, so that you can disagree with them?

I thought Vajra's response was very thoughtful. She eloquently expressed what I was thinking, so there's no need to repeat it.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth...I saw your portrait that you drew, and it is exceptional. If anyone was in the market for a portrait artist, you have the skills to justify self promotion. There's no harm in that.

^I wrote this earlier, before seeing your latest comment. I was contemplating whether or not to actually post it, because I feel like you are channeling your issues in a very passive aggressive way by starting these threads. You just proved my point! This was my initial reaction to your toilet seat/pretty women are shallow b!tches thread.

You sir, do not know the first thing about enlightenment, and if you did you would recognize it in others when you saw it.

to Vajra, even after being insulted by you, she still treats you with respect. You could learn a thing or two from her if you actually listened.

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Charmaine
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Posts: 582
From: Venus Next To Randall
Registered: Dec 2014

posted July 24, 2015 06:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Charmaine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Closing this before it gets out of hand.

7th, your reply was rather disrespectful. I will not tolerate that here.

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