posted November 12, 2008 09:33 AM         

=============

Yoga says there is a possibility of a body change, of a body chemistry change. Right now you are doing the same just by an intermediary. You cannot eat sunrays directly because your body chemistry is not in such a state; the mechanism is not such that it can absorb sunrays directly. So first the fruit of the tree absorbs the sunrays, it becomes vitamin B in the fruit, then you eat the fruit, then the vitamin B goes into your body. The fruit is just an intermediary; the fruit is working just as your agent to absorb the sunrays and then give them to you. You can absorb them through the fruit, not directly.

But if the fruit can absorb directly, why not you? So someday there is going to be a scientific discovery that some body changes will help you to absorb directly, and then fruit will not be needed. In the future - and I think not very long, fifty years - science is bound to discover it.It has to be discovered, otherwise humanity is going to die because food will not be possible. And birth control is not helping, nothing is helping; the population goes on growing. Some way has to be found so food can be dropped and direct absorption of cosmic rays becomes possible. It has happened in individual cases but it was by accident. If it can happen to one individual, it can happen to every individual but not as an accident; it will happen as a scientific change.

But don't try such things, they are not spiritual. Even if you eat sunrays directly there is nothing spiritual. What is spiritual? Just by dropping the intermediary of fruit you become spiritual? If you live only on water, nothing is spiritual.

What you eat makes no difference; what you are is a totally different phenomenon. And when that changes, everything will change; but that change will not be from the mind, it will be from the innermost being. Then things will change automatically.

posted November 12, 2008 05:14 PM         

i thought the thread just got up and walked away...

quote:

---

What you eat makes no difference; what you are is a totally different phenomenon. And when that changes, everything will change; but that change will not be from the mind, it will be from the innermost being. Then things will change automatically.

---

In other words:

Water can take the form of vapor or ice, depending on the temperature.
Taking the form of vapor does not make the temperature rise,
and taking the form of ice does not make the temperature fall.
But, when the temperature rises, or falls, the water will change automatically.
So, being vegetarian will not make you more spiritual,
but, being spiritual will make you a vegetarian.
The change in diet is an effect, and not a cause, of the spiritual life.

posted November 12, 2008 05:43 PM         

You just need to be aware -- as you put it so well because the temperature was rising the water became vapor. You were more aware of the process. Enlightenment is also a process. You are being more and more observant.

And Nietzsche had glimpses of it in his still moments. I quoted him else where. Can't remember that thread? Gee, I am supposed to remember it. It will come to me eventually if I regress. But it is not important at the moment. Oh yeah now I remeber - the Echart thread.

Remembering your past life is also an regression -- the difference is you are remembering your life just moments before you entered your mothers womb.

posted November 14, 2008 06:39 PM         

Your tone seems kinder recently.

I am looking forward to Pluto leaving Sagitarius.

For too long, we have used our beliefs as excuses to be rude, or self-righteous, with one another.

We have seen such an abundance of teachings, both solid and suspect, arguing for attention.

Maybe, when Pluto reaches Capricorn, we'll all be able to proceed with more caution and maturity.

Your tone, and some of your ideas, often rub me the wrong way, Mannu...

But I know that we are not so different. And that is part of what annoys me, lol.

I see a lot of good in you, and I think you are making progress all the time.

I hope you see the same in me, despite my own imperfections.

posted November 15, 2008 08:07 PM         

You have mocked other peoples faith and trust so often that at times I take pleasure in rubbing you off the wrong way. May be I should sober up a bit because there could be a positive in that -- its an opportunity for people to dust off each others dust from their mirror LOL

BUD said it well in GU i.e pluto in cappy means going against father figures. so i am glad the incumbent Jesus of bible will be more realistic than mythical.

>>I see a lot of good in you, and I think you are making progress all the time.
I hope you see the same in me, despite my own imperfections.

Oh thank you too for your kind words. I too see a great potential in you because you have some planets in the 10th too in your Natal -- may be you were a great persona in your past life -- just kidding. What I like about you is that you fear no one and express your being in its truest form. Also I have not forgotten your theory on absolutism while at the same time cherishing Einstein's (pisces) relativism. I tend to accept both views. I can't explain it in words right now.

Buddhism is not suited for everyone nor is christianity. Buddhism is for the scientific minds and christianity for emotional people. There are several paths. One knows which path suits one, when you notice the difference in you and when people talk about their perceived change in you. Follow that path as it gave you results.

posted November 22, 2008 05:37 AM         

quote:

---

You have mocked other peoples faith and trust so often that at times I take pleasure in rubbing you off the wrong way.

---

To some extent, I deserve that, but, I dont "mock" for the fun of it,
or simply to give someone a taste of their own medicine
(as if two wrongs somehow made a right).

I enjoy pointing out genuine irony when I see it,
for the sake of reaching a higher understanding.
I don't make things up simply to rub someone the wrong way.
There's always a more deliberate method to my madness.

At least, I like to think so.

quote:

---

Oh thank you too for your kind words.

---

You're welcome.

quote:

---

What I like about you is that you fear no one and express your being in its truest form.

---

Thanks.

Actually, I'm terrified of what people think of me,
and I take it way too seriously, but I still stay true to myself.

I dont follow absolutism, and I'm not sure where you got that idea.
My theories on truth and value are far closer to relativism
(not to be confused with Einstien's physics theory of relativity).
But even closer to Nietzsche's perspectivism,
which may be the hybrid you are thinking of?

There are heart-centered philosophies and/or practices in Buddhism,
just as there are mental and scientific practices in Christianity.
Both traditions are richly complex, and, if you look closely,
you can find pretty much whatever you're looking for in either.

One should follow the tradition which he/she is comfortable with,
or, if not comfortable with tradition, forge a path of one's own.
Some people prefer an eclectic approach, borrowing from many paths,
and that is also perfectly fine, provided it is your predisposition.
(But I think you probably already understand these things.)

posted November 22, 2008 09:44 PM         

Yes, the "The heart sutra" of buddha comes to mind.

posted November 23, 2008 09:52 AM         

quote:

---

if not comfortable with tradition, forge a path of one's own.

and:

There's always a more deliberate method to my madness.

---

I haven`t read many of your posts lately so I`m wondering how`s that working for you HSC?

juni

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted November 25, 2008 12:41 AM         

HSC I never give astrology opinions unless very sure. I remembered what I wrote to you and was thinking about it at the back of my head all the time and got an epiphany : What if we chose our horoscope before taking birth to fulfil our wishes in this life?

It fits in my world -- I am curious does it yours? Do you feel an urge, an calling to be in the public eye? What planets exactly in the 10th? I think I remembered you saying something about it but not sure what it was.

I am one step away from universalization LOL

Also heard that if we do not live up to our potentials that we chose we may become sick in mind and body or more sick if already. Sick seems to be harsh word -- the harmony with the natal is lost if we deviate. So we have to take the first steps to fulfil what we came here for and the rest will follow. The universe unfolds and takes care of the rest.

posted November 25, 2008 10:55 AM         

I wasnt sure how much you were kidding about.

I have:

Virgo
Saturn 11°
in the 8th house

Scorpio
Sun 13°
Venus 15°
Midheaven 16°
Uranus 16°

Sagittarius
Mars 3°
Mercury 4°

That's five planets contacting the 10th directly,
and two more planets, ruling the signs in the 10th.

Pluto, ruler of the MC, and depositor of the stellium, is in the 9th, squaring the Ascendant and sextile Neptune (11th).

Jupiter, depositor of the Sag planets, is trine those planets, in Leo, in the 7th (angular).

My thoughts about fulfilling potential are pretty complicated, as you might imagine. I can speculate on a vast array of possibilities. And I am inclined to think that, for the most part, people will believe whatever comes easily to them and makes them look good. This was a huge part of Nietzsche's philosophy, and the part which I am in the deepest sympathy with. I think its true that we can always do something more to try to bring out our full potential. But whether or not the methods we try will be right for us is another story altogether. Time and again, I see how we underestimate our own complexity, and the complexity of one another. We are the most sophisticated and intricately configurated machines on the planet, and, yet, we do not come with an instruction manual. Everywhere you look, somebody is waving an answer in the air, like an impatient child in school. "Ooo, oo, pick me, pick me! I've got the answer!" But I am not convinced that anybody really knows why something works for a certain person at a certain time, or what is ultimately responsible for that initial spark of enthusiasm and motivation to pursue a particular course in faith. It has always seemed to me explicable only in terms of the grace of God. Why one person is oriented according to an essentially solar paradigm; emphasizing personal responsibility, self-actualization, manifestation, procreation, and proliferation... And why another person is essentially lunar; emphasizing the immensity of creation, and the vulnerability, precariousness, and impressionability of man's condition; seeing himself as something far too reflective and nebulous to be neatly ordered and directed into concrete or material ends. The nature of the Moon is mystery, and the encounter with Soul is both ponderous and contradictory. Things are not clearly defined, and there is a willingness to explore the subtle cracks in the theories which more self-directed types carry banners of, but barely question. We all have both the solar and lunar principles within us, but we tend to gravitate towards one or the other side of the spectrum. And we are all special, but there are some people who are special for being either polarized towards one end of the spectrum, or towards a point of balance in the center. I do not say that balance is "better" than the experience of the margins, or that either of these states is any better than the experience of the more abundant type, who has a fair mix of both, yet tends just noticibly to one side. Now, since the nature of my experience of the world has been highly instinctive, reflective and contemplative, rather than deliberate, active and constructive, it stands to reason that my contribution to the world is going to be more subtle, immaterial, inchoate, mysterious, and diffuse. Freud, who also had Saturn in the 8th, a combination known for making changes slowly, but very meaningfully, remarked, "The man who appears to be making no outward progress, may be progressing inwardly at an incredible rate." I have had psychics tell me that this is characteristic of my own condition. And this is exactly what I feel. In true sympathy with my Capricorn Ascendant, and 10th house (Capricorn) emphasis, I am taking very slow steps, and considering my movements with endless care, to be sure that I have not overlooked something essential. When I do emerge from this chrysalis, it will be as a phoenix. Another man, with my insight, talent, and skill, would be content to write a book and strive towards its publication. But it is my nature, Mannu, that, if I were to write such a book, I would be writing another book in contradiction of it before it reached the shelves. So, it seems to me that I am still in the chrysalis. And although I do feel an urge to be recognized by the public, and to exert a potentially historical influence, I know that it is not yet my time. And I have tremendous faith in the process. Some would say too much. But I think they underestimate me greatly, and have scarcely an inkling of what the grand design of my mission here entails. It is clear to me that I have been making incredible progress, in my independent way, and that hardly a day goes by when I have not understood myself, others, and the world a bit more clearly, and learned to communicate my thoughts and enthusiasms with greater skill and care. Over time, I see the ideas that stick with me and return again and again to greet me, and I make small, but important, adjustments to them each time we meet. Then a day comes when I am ripe, and, sure enough, the ideas that I have become familiar with, and come to call my own, return to me in a form more perfect than I had seen them before. And little by little, I see myself tracing constellations across the inside of my skull, gradually connecting the dots, until I am the center of another cosmos, populated by gods of my own creation; an entire zodiac of archetypes, with nothing omitted or overlooked. I may write, one day, a Mahabarata of my own, when my wisdom has grown full and ripe. I may find myself the father of a new form of alternative religion, destined to bring comfort and understanding to millions of seekers, disenfranchized by the existing conditions. But, as I said, I want to do it right. The last thing the world needs is just another religion. It must build upon the foundations of the past, and bring together elements heretofore held to be at eternal variance. And if it turns out that this intricately attenuated universe inside me is a pure delusion, and a mythology utterly in conflict with the way things are, I will not therefor conclude that it is or has all been in vain. For, to me, the life of the imagination is a full and richly fulfilling one, whether or not it leaves a localized mark in the world, or only in the proximal souls of mankind. I only wish other people would be more understanding and accepting of that. The greater part of my stress is not on account of having neglected to fulfill some divinely ordained mandate, nor any social or familial responsibilities that can be imagined, but, on account of the grief I get from others, who think that, because they are unreceptive to my message, I have nothing to say, and because they cannot appreciate my contributions, I have contributed nothing. The courage to walk a different path, when even the whole world is trying to convince me that what my heart tells me is a lie, does not always come easy to me. But this is the fate God has chosen for me. It is all I know, and the only element in which I am able to breathe and swim freely. I have no desire to compete with others on the global stage, or to add one more spiritual book to the libraries already in print, unless I can be sure that what I have to say is uniquely valuable (uranus/venus on the mc). Whatever I would see in print, I would just as soon see set in stone. But here on the boards of LL, I try things out, and hardly anything I say here is something I want to see set in stone. They are ideas.

I will share with you, if I am able to, Mannu, my great idea, as it only now begins to take shape... There are basic truths which may be hinted at, but only hinted at. The forms of expression we use to hint at them become calcified, and the initial flash of insight gives way to a stagnant, dogmatic assertion, with a fascistic agenda of proliferating itself and making sense of itself within a larger context. But each of these forms finds its contradiction in some other form, which we then become antagonistic to. If we can grasp the initial spark of insight, and then let it go, without having to pin it down within the form, we can come to see that the contradictory form actually expresses a complimentary insight. You see, truth is a living thing. It is like an animal that is in motion. And when we try to perceive this animal with the mind, we can only take snapshots. What happens is, each snapshot comes to represent a given truth. But, when juxtaposed against another shot, we may see the animal in two very different positions, and conclude that there is some contradiction, and one of the photos must be a fraud, if not both of them. Only when a great many shots have been taken, are we able to lay the frames down in an order that begins to reflect the flow of truth. When enough frames are laid together, we can play it like a film, and show the full orchestration of the animal's stride. But this is not to say that we merely fit a series of insights into a series of corresponding forms to create a new mythology, relevant to our unique, modern condition. Rather, we take care to keep the forms at variance, and to avoid any continuity in the forms, while yet expressing the continuity within the insights. So, then, we are forced to abandon the forms at the instant they have fulfilled their purpose in indicating the particular insight. In other words, what we would see on film would not be the image of a particular horse galloping, but, the images of numerous horses, in succession, each exhibiting the next movement in a horses' stride. Then, it becomes clear that we are not talking about a particular horse, or form, but, the ideal horse, who exists equally in all equine forms. So it is that Buddha renounces the world, is crucified in the flesh as Christ and dies to the world, enters Hades as Orpheus, is ressurrected as Osiris, and ascends to Heaven as Allah. This is just a poor sketch of what is begining to take shape in my consciousness. Ultimately, I want to show the identity of the experiences, not only of Christ, Buddha, and the other avatars, but, the identity of all these archetypal heros with the ordinary human being, whose experience is governed by the same basic spiritual laws. And I want to show how there are many paths, and many twists on each path; how one person's truth can be valid, without it having to be another person's truth, and one truth can be valid one moment, and invalid the next. Because it is my belief that what is important are these vague, indefinable moments of insight, and not what we try to make out of them or anything we hope to do with them. Their value is precisely in their uselessness. If we try to turn them into some hard and fast rule of conduct or some deliberate way of seeing, we miss the big picture. Everything is just a metaphor, or an analogy, for something else. But you never locate that "something else". You may try to elaborate upon the metaphor or the analogy, in hopes of tracing a path to the goal, but it will fall apart, because that is the nature of analogy. An analogy is never perfectly representative of the thing it depicts, but only of some particular aspect of it, and when you try to extend the analogy, it loses its ability to reflect the object it was intended to give insight into. We must understand that, the inability to fit insights into a linear framework does not mean they are invalid or unworkable. Their purpose is a humble one, but it is sufficient; they serve to illuminate a point in time, like a match lit for an instant in a tunnel. That flash allows us to get our bearings, but it does not tell us what lies ahead. It shows us where we are. But when you continue down the tunnel in the dark, do not imagine that what surrounds you are the same things you saw in that instant of illumination. Light another match, and you may find yourself in another part of the city. This analogy is just crudely suggestive of what we do when we rely upon philosophical precepts after they have outlived their purpose, and reject them when we ought to be making a timely use of them. We give directions to the man in the tunnel that we ought to be giving to the man in the street, and vice versa. Always, we are projecting one truth onto the rightful place of another. So, what my basic point would be, is that the life of truth cannot be adequately traced in the minds of men (and I would not pressume to make such an attempt), but, it may be known briefly, in moments of pure insight. And if we allow the insight to stand for the moment, without projecting it into time, and trying to expand its influence, or exaggerate its truthfulness, we can accord to it a proper measure of truth; no more, no less. So, the question becomes, "how will I know which insight is the right one for a given time and place?" And the answer is that one must have a broad mind, and be willing to take into consideration such an assortment of perspectives, that, when a situation arises, the proper insight is called forth not by default (because we do not have so many other insights to choose from), but, because, having long considered it within a community (I do not say "context") of other truths, its appropriateness to the moment is instantaneously recognized and affirmed at the deepest levels. So it is that a man may live his life, perpetually singing a different song, to suit the occassion of the moment. And while this may seem to some like a kind of dreamer's paradise, full of contradiction and superficial wisdom, it is really something else. Emerson said we should learn to skate over the surface of things, and this is true. This skating requires an incredible dexterity of mind, and versatility of soul. Put another way, it is as if the ice has broken into a thousand drifting slabs, and we can not set foot on any one of them for very long, so we much be agile, and learn to dance from one slab to another, without getting stuck. Each slab is capable of supporting only the weight of the moment. When insights like this are fully digested, there will be no need to remember them, or try to fit them into a religious scheme. They will come to the surface of the mind at the precise instant when they are needed. But they will not come to tell us what to do, since they are useless. They may only tell us where we are, for they come only to light the room, and not the way. And this is the beauty of man's plight. That he should not attempt to interpret the future, or the means of affecting a propitious outcome, but content himself with admiring in detachment the pure beauty of life as revealed by the revelation of the moment. When this is understood, there is really nothing to do, and nobody to become. It is enough simply to be mindful of this delicious moment, in which God has seen fit to punctuate our experience with the unanticipated grace of insight. The less we cling to it, the more prepared we are to be in the moment, and to receive the next insight, appropriate to that moment.

Absolutism has to do with the belief that propositions and values are superior to circumstance, and are therefor either true or false for all times and places. In other words, "If it is wrong for a woman to go barebreasted in a daycare center in downtown Madrid, it is equally wrong for her to go barebreasted in the jungles of Brazil, where this is a custom intrinsic to the idigenous peoples there." This is not what I believe. I am a Determinist, though, yes. But nearly every time I try to explain what determinism means to me, I seem to be misunderstood, and, so far, I think Mystic Melody may be the only person who has fully understood me on this. The course of our lives is entirely determined by forces transcending our control. The appearance of control is an illusion manifested by the inherent subjectivity of our nature, as beings dependent upon, yet ignorant of, the mind and will of God. Because of this fundamental dependence, we are innocent, and not ultimately responsible for what we think, feel, say, or do. We are pathological creatures, ruled by our respective unconscious neuroses, and by the laws of dynamics, to which we find ourselves subject at all times and places, down the very remotest and minutest aspects of our being. We are controlled both by what we know and by what we do not know, by what we think and do not think, feel and do not feel. Our every instinct and concern arises out of necessity and according to necessity, lives out of necessity and according to necessity, and dies out of necessity and according to necessity. What you do or do not do with this insight is also determined as a matter of necessity. All things are constrained to obey their natures as prescribed by God. Our movements are no less ordered than the planets, though the more complex arrangement of our orbits often makes this difficult to perceive.

posted November 25, 2008 06:27 PM         

Yeah sage Vyas wrote it with Ganesh...
Vyas spoke while Ganesha captured and wrote it down in one sitting without break. Its impossible to speak and write at the same time they say. And therefore takes two to create a master piece. I wonder if he tape recorder was available in those days LOL because then Ganesh becomes obsolete or may be it was such a long book that they would have run out of then available technology and hence writing was the best choice
We touched upon that post somewhere in the beginning of our interactions about the art involved in it. But heh thats a nice goal.

Oh the other thing is Mahabharat is mostly about statesmanship and war with few short chapters devoted to Geeta(a philosophical treatise) in it. Yeah you better have all that quality before you take that task.
Vyas also was a great astrologer who some say saw 5000 years ahead in the future. Now how much of him was mythology I am still debating myself LOL but Indeed a nice goal for ya.

posted November 26, 2008 10:08 AM         

The courage to walk a different path, when even the whole world is trying to convince me that what my heart tells me is a lie, does not always come easy to me. But this is the fate God has chosen for me. It is all I know, and the only element in which I am able to breathe and swim freely. I have no desire to compete with others on the global stage

>Boy do I know how you feel!

Time and again, I see how we underestimate our own complexity, and the complexity of one another.

>Absolutely.

Freud, who also had Saturn in the 8th, a combination known for making changes slowly, but very meaningfully, remarked, "The man who appears to be making no outward progress, may be progressing inwardly at an incredible rate."

>I like that.

posted November 26, 2008 10:30 AM         

>I like that.

As for the rest....that is very deep....I like it.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever experimented with "the law of attraction"? I recently read a book called "Happier than God" by Neale D. Walsch which explains the law of attraction in a more complex way. I am thinking of experimenting to see if it works. That's if I get round to it...my mind has kind of taken another road now and I did find some of what I read confusing.

When you get the time, I recommend that link I posted to the talk by physicist Nassim Haramein...I think it may inspire you as it did me- I may have to watch it again some time as my left brain is not used to a lot of that stuff, but I was able to grasp the basic concepts. Anyway, it was amazing. And it gets more interesting as it goes on, so I recommend giving it a try....talks about Egypt and the Knights Templar in the second part...lovely jubbly.

posted February 02, 2009 06:27 PM         

I havent made a concerted experiment of it, no. Let me know how it works for you.

I incline toward the belief that these methods, are the fruit, not the root, of insight. I suspect that people evolve organically, and the natural outgrowth is that their thinking becomes increasingly positive and they take up practices (affirmations, yoga, what-have-you). Then they mistake this effect for the cause of their increasing well-being, and write self-help books about it. Still, this is how it should be, since, the people who pick up these books do so because the books reflect their present stage of development. As you read the book and put its contents to use, you imagine that the contents are responsible for the changes within you. Really, the changes within are responsible for your "attunement" to the contents of the book, or the practices. If the book or practice did not exist, you would still evolve in a parallel way. Certain interpretations and manifestations would be different, if you hadnt read the book and done the exercises, but the changes would be essentially the same. That's the belief I lean toward, anyway. One could suggest that practice is both root and fruit, but even that would be a simplification. Since the deeper reality is acausal correspondance, or "synchronicity", there is, ultimately, no practice, and no one who practices. They are One.

God Bless,
HSC