posted September 22, 2010 06:18 PM         

The latter.

It's a journey and it depends very much
on where you find yourself at a given moment.

posted September 22, 2010 06:47 PM         

Matthew 5:17 & 18

Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

Mat 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass

I understand the fine points made in the post (rather I agree or not is a different matter) but the indication that there are two Laws is... well, not whole.

Or, to see the post as whole, one must have Faith in the Pauline Doctrine,yes?

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 22, 2010 08:27 PM         

quote:

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There are two laws. Well, no, wait.. let me put it differently. There is one law, but there are two ways of seeing it. Often, things are said in scripture that describe states of awareness, and not hard facts. This is very difficult to describe, but I'll try.

---

I've done my best to elucidate this complex issue, as I understand it, but I make no claims to infallibility. This is, admittedly, a very subtle theological doctrine, and one which I cannot claim to fully understand. For me, it appears to involve some paradox, and to require for its understanding both a high degree of abstract thinking ability as well as an open-minded willingness to consider the possibility that what is said in one context need not exclude an apparently contradictory position, if the latter is taken in an entirely different context.

The opposition of the "two" laws, of Moses and of Christ, is not mine, but is made explicit by Paul in the Epistle to the Romans. You may be right, that one must be confirmed in Pauline doctrine to accept this. I'm not familiar enough with what has officially been deemed Pauline doctrine to say so, and I'm only interpreting the raw text of the New Testament according to my own lights.

Lately, I've been exploring rabbinical literature, which leads me to consider that there may be even less of a discrepancy between these two laws -- or two sides of the law, -- than I had thought. Also, that the Pharisees may not have been the self-righteous hypocrites I was led to believe they were. My reading suggests that Christ criticized them much as they criticized themselves, and much as one might criticize, or chastise, a beloved member of the family, with whom one is on familiar terms.

Still struggling to understand...

posted September 23, 2010 11:48 AM         

My certainty evolves from simple facts. Jesus was a Jew, a practicing Jew. That clearly means the Law he came to fulfill was the Mosaic Law. No other explanation works here. We can go further and say the

Noahide Laws or Noachide Code ( for non Jews) is the same law handed to Noah pre Moses and incorporated into Mosaic Law.

Modern Christianity, as practiced by Pauline Doctrine, is NOT the Law Jesus stated he came to fulfill. Perhaps we could say it is a by product but not the actual given Law.

If you have another view of Jesus`s declared Intention, please share !!

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 23, 2010 12:35 PM         

"Modern Christianity" would find my interpretation unintelligible and heretical, -- a far cry from what they understand by the words "justification by faith". Yes, it is the Mosaic Law which Jesus came to "fulfill". I never said otherwise. If you read my post carefully, and read Paul's Epistle carefully, you'll see that "fulfilling the law" means a lot more than just practicing it to the "last tittle". It means reinterpreting the law, and providing more insight into it's meaning and purpose than what was made clear by Moses. It is a second dispensation, yes, but it is not the giving of a new law (though we may refer to it as the "Law" of Christ, or Grace), -- rather, it is the Law of Moses as understood from a higher vantage point.

quote:

---

If you have another view of Jesus`s declared Intention, please share!!

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LOL

I did.

posted September 23, 2010 01:30 PM         

quote:

---

It means reinterpreting the law, and providing more insight into it's meaning and purpose than what was made clear by Moses. It is a second dispensation, yes, but it is not the giving of a new law

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If that Works for you Valus, it`s all good.

I check in with you every so often to see what you have gleaned from life and your studies.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 23, 2010 07:26 PM         

Bottom line...

What Jesus (and Paul) are emphasizing here is the spiritual reality which underlies all appearances and differences, whether they be righteous or corrupt; the true Spirit of God residing in all of us, sinners and saints, which can never be compromised. Attention to this reality is purifying, and brings us into accordance with it, while attention to externals keeps us focused on ourselves, not on God, and ultimately prevents our fidelity to the law.

posted September 24, 2010 06:42 PM         

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 24, 2010 09:01 PM         

I just wonder if people really ask themselves how religion has proven itself to be of any benefit to humankind, or if they just accept it because it seems the norm, and therefore only thing we have to look to. Is it just too scary to consider we've been lied to all these years? I suggest this as the possible answer because that's how I feel. The day I realized it was all a lie it was like the worst betrayal I've ever felt in my life, and finding my own way has been the hardest task ever....but better to walk this path than not try to find ways to solve the schizophrenia in the human psyche that religion has created.

I won't lie though...it's tough, and I feel it more than ever today...perhaps that's why I clumsily intruded here whereas normally I try to avoid any kind of possible confrontation and disharmony.

posted September 27, 2010 03:05 PM         

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“We must live for the few who know and appreciate us, who judge and absolve us, and for whom we have the same affection and indulgence. The rest I look upon as a mere crowd, lively or sad, loyal or corrupt, from whom there is nothing to be expected but fleeting emotions, either pleasant or unpleasant, which leave no trace behind them.”

~ Sarah Bernhardt